andrethx Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 thinking about the suspension on my car, i know i'll be changing some parts here and there. with regard to shocks, it looks like at this point, if you are not lucky enough to still have the original, rebuild-able peugeot shocks/strut inserts, your only new equipment options in the us are the kybs or the gabriel shocks. by most accounts those shocks are better than nothing but are not particularly durable and don't perform especially well. in the past, konis & bilsteins were offered for our cars but in the us (at least) are nla. it looks like they may be available outside the us (in europe, at least), but as always international shipping makes them less attractive. kyb publishes a dimension guide for its shocks (NOT an application guide, they say); a bit of studying (i.e, using my browser's "find" function") shows that two parts have similar dimensions & mountings to the 505 rear shocks (KG5661) --- KG4738 and 343272, which are both shocks for the rear of the 2001 - 2005 Toyota Rav4. According to Motor Trend, the Rav4 has a curb weight of 2,965 lbs, which is nearly the same as the 505's 2,700 - 3,000 lbs. (depending on configuration). both Koni and Bilstein still offer shocks for the Rav4 (yes, i know). so might the rear shocks for the Rav4 be a bolt-in substitute for the rear units on the 505, or nearly so? what do you guys think, aside from the obvious "sounds great, try it and let us know how it works!...." i am willing to try this when i get to that point, what i want to know is your opinion on whether or not it is worth trying... Andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N9TE Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 No way in hell would I give up my Peugeot shocks for ANY other shock. Peugeot uses an in-house design with six valves (opposed to 4 by Koni, etc). They patented this design and short of a Citroen Hydropneumatic setup, nothing can touch it. Beg, borrow or steal some used Peugeot ones. I'm sure Brian Holm has a set that came with your car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted April 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 i'll put koll down as a "no" i didn't realize that the original shocks were so readily available -- since i'm not at that point yet, i haven't asked brian about shocks. good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Put me down for no as well. The rear shock is mounted in a "leveraged" postion meaning the movements that it needs to dampen are much greater force than if the shock was mounted in the same plane as the wheel. (IE the front spring rate is ~88lbs/in, the rear spring is 250 lbs/in). The only shocks I've heard doing OK are the front shocks out of Toyota Hi-Lux truck (European reference), and I've heard others tryng older Ford truck front shocks - but nothing compares to the stock 8 valve Peugeot shocks. Best upgrade you could do is to get the OE front struts and rear shocks from a 505 Turbo. Reseal the front struts, and as long as the rears aren't leaking they should be good. I've actually got a set of rear shocks I'm taking apart to see if I can change the oil and reseal them. Even if it means maching a new housing for them - I think it'd be worth it. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted April 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Thanks, Rabin, this is good information. So my takeaway from this is that, while the Rav4 shocks might fit, they won't perform well and/or last very long. Now, my original question wasn't "What shocks should I buy," it was more along the lines of, "In a world where OE shocks are not available, what can we do?" What can I say -- I'm a worrier. But since we are on the related subject of "what shocks should I buy," I'm not entirely sure what I have. The front strut inserts have the boot over them, so I won't know what they are until I take them apart. The rear shocks are black, with no markings that I can see. How can I tell if these shocks are OE? Andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Rear shocks look OE... (Original Equipment) As for what to use for new, if you can't locate good used, I'd say KYB for our car would be the next best, then adapting a front truck shock. If my experiment doesn't work, then I'll likely go with Koni single or double adjustible inserts up front, and a custom spec Koni damper at the back with valving to suit. 944's, early 3 series BMW, and Nissan 510's use a similar semi trailer rear control arm, so it should be easy if a bit pricey to get some properly valves shocks that will work. The 8 valve stockers really are amazing though - so my preference is to use the stock guts in custom housings with new modern shock oil. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryancohnracing Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 I have a new, in box, set of rear Gabriel shocks that came with one of my parts cars. I've wondered wether they might be worth trying (figuring new must be better than old) but now I am not sure. I know who can help you with rebuilding your rear shock Rabin. Will put you in touch with Angelo at Anze Suspension. He specializes in fitting Penske shock internals in places where they have no business. http://anzesuspension.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunktionFET Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 Speaking of rebuilding--you can often find shops that specialize in rebuilding shocks. For motorcycles, I know a few people that have opted to have such a place rebuild their rear shock, and is something I've thought about doing to my RC51 track bike since the stock rear Showa is just about perfect for my weight. Rebuilding forks is easy--much like rebuilding the strut on a 505. The shock requires some pressurized nitrogen. I'm sure the seals in a Peugeot shock are generic enough to find OTC replacements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 Trouble with the OEM rears is that there welded up assembly, so doing the trick Bryan mentioned about draining and refilling is the easy way I was thinking for a good one intact (except I'd install a threaded plug). The one I wrecked I spun the rod out of the damper assembly inside the shock - So I may as well cut it open and examine inside... If the my guess is that the internals are indeed super trick, and rival anything from Koni or wherever, so if I can fit them into a rebuildable coil over assembly, or a set up with a remote resevoir or other such trick stuff that would be ideal. Damper matched to the front already, so if we play with oil weights a bit the change is consistent front and rear. Could find out the damper assembly inside isn't possible to reuse - but at least the curiosity will be gone then. The Penske stuff way cool - but at a few grand I'd likely go with some custom Hot Bits or something similar and call it done. Even some custom Bilsteins would be pretty decent since they can be valved to spec as well. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted April 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 If my experiment doesn't work, then I'll likely go with Koni single or double adjustible inserts up front, and a custom spec Koni damper at the back with valving to suit. 944's, early 3 series BMW, and Nissan 510's use a similar semi trailer rear control arm, so it should be easy if a bit pricey to get some properly valves shocks that will work. what about these shocks is "custom?" is it the performance characteristics (internal specs) or the packaging (dimensions, mounting attachments) or both? It seems like, if the packaging of these shocks is very far off from the original units, you're going to be looking at re-engineering your suspension so that you don't have other problems...or are you already planning for that? i noticed on the anze suspension site, they had adapters so that one could use racing-style shocks on a street car without any welding or permanent changes to the host car. they look like this: what if one fabricated an adapter like this for the 505? by adjusting the dimensions, you could use a shock with off-the shelf packaging instead of a custom one, might be less expensive... andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 what about these shocks is "custom?" is it the performance characteristics (internal specs) or the packaging (dimensions, mounting attachments) or both? It seems like, if the packaging of these shocks is very far off from the original units, you're going to be looking at re-engineering your suspension so that you don't have other problems...or are you already planning for that? Custom = internal damping rates, and spring rates. Shocks themselves you'd basically spec out an off the shelf set up once you can match what kind of stroke is needed. Then you would need to modify the stock shock mounts to suit - and using a clevis device, or simply welding something up that does the same thing is likely the best route. Due to the location of the rear spring/shock mid trailing arm, using a coil over back there means very high spring rates, and stiff damping along with it. Some have relocated the pick up points to the end of the trailing arm, and then done a new top mount so that regular spring and damping rates can be used - so even more off the shelf availability. TONS of options - but for now I just want to keep it simple. Rear coil overs are cool - but they need a new top mount, and even the bottom mount should be reinforced. For now I just want to modify stock stuff for a nice gain in performance, and be easy to do. Later on I'll look at redoing stuff - even if it means re-engineering the suspension somewhat. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted April 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 Some have relocated the pick up points to the end of the trailing arm, and then done a new top mount so that regular spring and damping rates can be used - so even more off the shelf availability. when you say "end," do you mean moving the pick up points on the trailing arm to the rear, or in an "outboard" direction? trying to visualize... andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 6, 2011 Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 when you say "end," do you mean moving the pick up points on the trailing arm to the rear, or in an "outboard" direction? trying to visualize... andre End being the very trailing edge of the arm, behind the rear wheel axis. Moving it there gives it a mechanical advantage and it needs MUCH less spring rates and damping to do the same job as the OE location. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted April 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2011 i think i get it -- since the pivot point is the leading edge of the arm, moving the mount point back effectively gives you a longer lever -- like the skinny kid moving far back on the seesaw to lift up the fat kid who is sitting close to the pivot...so less spring/damper is needed... andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EUROTRASH Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 I tried to replace all the shocks in my v6 but I could only replace the shocks in the rear, the front had to be rebuilt as I could not find a new set. Funny thing is the ride didn't improve much, I have a feeling it's something else within the suspension system. What exactly is it that lays between the very top of the suspension tower and the shocks? Or I should... what's immediately underneath the top of the suspension tower? Is there some kind of rubber bushing or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 Or I should... what's immediately underneath the top of the suspension tower? Is there some kind of rubber bushing or something? The strut bearing, which is also an isolator for the strut shaft. When they go though you'll just have excessive bouncing. You don't indicate what issue you're trying to resolve though. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EUROTRASH Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 The strut bearing, which is also an isolator for the strut shaft. When they go though you'll just have excessive bouncing. You don't indicate what issue you're trying to resolve though. Rabin Well, basically the car takes even the smallest pot hole as if it were a really big one, it's always a violent shake. If this strut bearing is made of rubber I can tell you right now, it's gone. I'll look it up. We actually went over this back when my screen name was EUROTRASH, I just never got around to it and forgot what the problem was, this time I'll take care of it... I'll call Dubarr first, then the Parts Network if that fails. http://www.505turbo.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=827&mode=threaded&pid=5688 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted May 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 here's what i ended up getting: allinquant gas shocks for the rear. got them from an auto parts place in persan, france through ebay.fr, cost 80 euros for the pair plus shipping. found an old post on peugeot-l from brian holm in 2000 (post # 7964), he said that the french shocks (decarbon, allinquant) are "not too bad," which i take it to mean somewhere between the long-gone oem and kyb/monroe/gabriel (which are "junk" according to brian's post). this is what prompted me to look for these. they also fit a talbot tagora, so i'm covered if i ever get one of those. with an xn6, my car is never going to be fast so i figure i'll make the most of what it has -- handling. andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 Handling tips: #1 - 15" rims with good tires. Slim pickings due to the size - but still some decent ones out there. #2 - making sure all the bushings, tie rods and ball joints are nice and tight. #3 - 505 Turbo springs. Slightly lower ride height, higher spring rates, but makes the car run quite nice. 4cylinder STI's had the turbo suspension too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhayj505 Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 so guys i just re built the rear diff on my car was extremely noisy had bad bearings so i replaces the diff carrier bearings and put in some new axle seals cleaned up the case a it was good to go....but i figured why stop there my car had a saggyy rear driverside spring and both the shocks were seeping it was just all bad.i did a lil bit of research i wanted a shock that would give me better handling and a lil stiffer after a while i came to conclusion of a gabrielle hijacker air shock for my rear off a 97 camaro its a lil bit heavier in the rear than my v6 505 but what the he'll.....i put in the replacement rear springs and hijacker rear shocks had to do a lil modifying but it was expected took my car out for a test drive up the canyon.........Tartarsauce that thing can really hang on the corners minimized body roll and improved handling big time.i ran the rear air shocks at 20psi i am very impressed : ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Did you use stock 505 springs? And how does the car handle when going over a heave or dip in the highway at speed? Matched pretty nice to the front? Definitely need pics if you have them too - sounds like an awesome upgrade as it'd be pretty easy to set it up so that you could do some load leveling as well if you had a full car load of people on a trip... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhayj505 Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 yes sir i put in rear springs from an 83 turbo diesel 505 they don't look much different though they r a tad bit thicker coils.....dips and heaves no problem the car Doesn't bottom out or pull to the side under full acceleration its actually really responsive the air shocks and rear sway work really good together. im not used to being able to see the top of my rear tires without lifting the i kinda figured that wasn't normal....im having problems uploading pics but as soon as i get to a computer i will do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhayj505 Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 also i routed the air lines under need the interior r/r fender so the air valve is hidden to someone who doesn't know its there but very easily accessible with pretty much and type of airing gadget.....its pretty cool to see the rear of the car go up when airing them thought it was a trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EUROTRASH Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 No way in hell would I give up my Peugeot shocks for ANY other shock. Peugeot uses an in-house design with six valves (opposed to 4 by Koni, etc). They patented this design and short of a Citroen Hydropneumatic setup, nothing can touch it. Beg, borrow or steal some used Peugeot ones. I'm sure Brian Holm has a set that came with your car. Do you mean Bryan Cohn? I ended up buying his front ABS shocks, I plan to rebuild them. I'll probably store the new gaskets for now, no point in having the socks dry up on a shelve somewhere. Like I said before, my existing front shocks were rebuilt. I did replace the rear shocks with KYB Gas-A-Just, they work fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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