Introduction and research help wanted

[EvanR]

First of all, thank you to the admins for having me.

By way of introduction, my name is Evan Reisner. I fancy myself an Automotive Journalist, and although I don't make a living at it, I have had quite a few articles and stories published. I have joined your group in hopes of getting some Peugeot answers.

If you've been on any general enthusiast websites, you'll find that Americans have developed a fetish of sorts for Diesel station wagons with RWD and manual transmissions, painted brown. The whys of that are part of my article, but the other part I'm looking in to is, "How many people actually bought them?"

As it turns out, Peugeot is one of only 2 manufacturers who ever imported a car fitting this description. If you're playing along at home, the other choice was Volvo, in both the 240 and 740 series.

From what I can tell from information provided to me in an email from a vendor and member here (thank you, Brian Holm!) only the 504SW was sold in the USA in this combination, and only from 1974-1983.

From importation figures found here...

http://www.productioncars.com/production-numbers/peugeot_new.php

and here...

http://www.angelfire.com/tn/pugdatabase/32.html

I've determined that Peugeot USA imported around 120,000 vehicles during the 10-year span when one could get a manual 504SW with Diesel engines.

The question becomes, of course, how many were brown wagons, equipped with a Diesel engine and manual transmission? Nobody seems to know.

Even if it was 5%, that's only 6,000 cars. Five percent seems to be a ridiculously high figure, given that sedans were available, automatics were available, and there were plenty of other colors besides brown!

Therefore, the number of brown, stickshift, Diesel 504SW *that were actually sold in the US* has to be some tiny number, a few hundred a year, at best.

I just wonder if any of you can provide me any real or anecdotal information to support my guesses.

Thank you for your time,

Evan Reisner

[Bean]

Welcome Evan!

Speaking of:  http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/cto/5629127255.html

As for your request on numbers - I'm afraid finding factory backed/confirmed numbers is going to be tough.  I've been trying to get confirmation my 89 505 Turbo 5sp sedan is 1 of 14 imported for years with no luck.  

I would agree with your eval so far, and would further wager the number left is likely under 100 left...  (Quite a bit under really...)

I did think that the early 505 TD wagon (-85') did come in manual, but the later 86' TD wagon was only brought in as a 4sp auto, and while 5sp was available in other markets - 86' was the last year diesels were imported by Peugeot.

I actually have a tan on brown 86' TD wagon, as well as a matching 86' TD 5sp donor sedan that will hopefully allow me to 5sp swap the wagon.  

BTW  - I'm pretty sure Mercedes fits into this category as well...

Rabin

[yhzman]

All I can add to this is that I had one of those brown, 4 speed manual 504 diesel station wagons (1979 model year).  Loved that car!  Mine was in Alberta, Canada and I owned it in the mid 90's...

 

Good luck with your story!

[yhzman]

I'll see if I can dig up some pictures...

[yhzman]

Here is mine (on a trip from Calgary to Vancouver), so that is 1 documented, and how many more to go????

 

[EvanR]

3 hours ago, Bean said:

Welcome Evan!

 

I did think that the early 505 TD wagon (-85') did come in manual, but the later 86' TD wagon was only brought in as a 4sp auto, and while 5sp was available in other markets - 86' was the last year diesels were imported by Peugeot.

 

BTW  - I'm pretty sure Mercedes fits into this category as well...

Rabin

Thanks, Rabin.

According to what Brian told me, there was something about the transmission mount position that prevented use of a manual transmission in a 505 wagon. I just took him at his word - he seems like a knowledgeable fellow on things Peugeot.

As for Mercedes, nope. Not in the USA. There were W123-chassis sedans with stick shifts sold in the US - in fact, I've owned one - but MBUSA *never* imported a manual transmission Diesel wagon.

[EvanR]

Also, I've noticed that both of the folks who have been kind enough to answer thus far are Canadians. While US and Canadian-market cars were largely the same during this era, Canada often got drivetrain combinations that the US did not, so that may be skewing some of your responses.

Thanks, folks!

[Bean]

Hi Evan,

Brian is very knowledgable yes, but I think in this case there may be some nuances to the info.  Maybe it was a CDM vs USDM issue?  All I can say for sure is that I have seen and heard about 5 sp TD Wagons in the US, but whether they were stock or built I can't say for sure.   Steffen Moller on this forum recently sent me pictures of a rear transmission mount from a pre 85 TD wagon with the XD2S 2.3L Turbo motor using the lighter duty BA7/5 manual transmission for instance, and he's from Virginia.  It could have been built, and Brian Holm is the guy to tell you the recipe to make the BA7/5 work.

In 1985 Peugeot used the XD3T 2.5L mated to the 3sp auto, in 86 the series 2 505 with the updated interior came with the 4HP22 4sp auto.  The more powerful 2.5L engine did get the BA10/5 in other markets, but I've never seen or heard of one in Canada or the U.S.  It could also be that the 505 TD wagon didn't get the 5sp until after the 86 model year?

The trouble I face in swapping my '86 will be the transmission support Brian mentioned, plus the fact that the driveshaft will likely be ~35mm too short.  What I have going for me is that the 4sp auto rear mount is much bigger and much better than the 3sp.  I also have a spare 4sp tranny mount, and a spare wagon torque tube and drive shaft.  I'm certain I have the ingredients to make the swap, and I'm more than confident in my fabrication skills, big problem is time.  (Even Brian hasn't ever seen or done the '86 TD Wagon 5sp  swap)

Root of the discussion however is the difficulty in finding factory confirmed numbers for cars and models that were exported to Canada and the U.S.  As enthusiasts there's just to many unknowns to be considered accurate, plus there's goofs like me that can't leave well enough alone.   (4sp auto was a 1 year only car, and very rare)

Rabin

 

 

[EvanR]

29 minutes ago, Bean said:

Hi Evan,

 

Root of the discussion however is the difficulty in finding factory confirmed numbers for cars and models that were exported to Canada and the U.S.  As enthusiasts there's just to many unknowns to be considered accurate, plus there's goofs like me that can't leave well enough alone.   (4sp auto was a 1 year only car, and very rare)

Rabin

 

 

Agree totally. This article idea stems from a piece I wrote on my own Diesel RWD stick shift brown wagon, a 1984 Volvo 245Diesel. And even though Volvo still exists in the US, they all but deny that they ever sold any car in the US with a Diesel engine.

(This, despite the availability of (an ever dwindling) number of Diesel-specific parts in US inventory!)

All official sources deny that Volvo sold any Diesel 1985 240 models. But they've been seen. That's just an example.

Add to that the unofficially imported cars, either gray market or under the 25-year exemption, People swear they've seen Mercedes wagons with a stick, and that's true enough, but MBUSA never imported a single one.

Now it's 30 years after the fact, and information is muddy, at best.

All I can do as a journalist is try my best.

[tulaweb]

I've been the owner of several 504 and 505 diesels but none of them station wagons and none of them brown.  I think Brian Holm is probably more knowledgeable about the mechanics of Peugeots than just about anyone in North America.  Michel Aube might hold that title for Canada so perhaps he would know if there were some imported to Canada that weren't seen in the US market.  Rabin mentioned Steffen Moller's brown station wagon which I think he converted, so he would also probably have done a lot of research on the subject.  Unfortunately that car recently burned up.

[andrethx]

welcome evan! i just took a look at the north american peugeot database -- old and kinda funky, but fairly accurate with respect to US models -- and that site indicates that the diesel wagons were only available with an automatic box. however, it says that all years of the diesel wagon, from '84 to '86, were available with the 4-speed automatic box when that unit only became available in '86. so one should prendre avec un grain de sel.... 

[EvanR]

On 6/13/2016 at 9:43 PM, andrethx said:

welcome evan! i just took a look at the north american peugeot database -- old and kinda funky, but fairly accurate with respect to US models -- and that site indicates that the diesel wagons were only available with an automatic box. however, it says that all years of the diesel wagon, from '84 to '86, were available with the 4-speed automatic box when that unit only became available in '86. so one should prendre avec un grain de sel.... 

I believe you must mean *505* wagons. 504 was clearly available with manual, in fact it seems that from '74-76 an automatic was not an option w/Diesel.

[Bean]

Just FYI - 504 wagons were sold until 1983, and were never turbocharged.  Not sure if there was any 505 wagon overlap, but I don't think I've ever seen a pre-84 505 wagon?

The 84' 505 TD wagon used the XD2S 2.3L w/3sp auto, 85' was the XD3T 2.5L w/3sp Auto, and 86' was XD3T w/4sp auto (series 2 with updated interior).

Peugeot stopped diesel imports after the 86 model year.

I also clarified with Steffen and his XD3T 5sp wagon was converted to TD using gas XN6 5sp wagon.  So manual was offered in the non turbo gas wagons, just wasn't offered in North America as far as we know so far.

Kinda cool actually - if I'm successful with my 'proper' BA10/5 5sp swap into my 86 wagon it should be absurdly rare.

Rabin

[Joe Ernest]

If I remember correctly, Pat Whale at Revolution Motors in Austin, TX built several 505 SW 5 spd TDs back in the 80s or 90s. More recently (2015) Pat's brother (in San Marcos, TX?) was selling off a bunch of Peugeots and Peugeot parts.

I owned an 84 3 spd auto wagon, then an 85 5 spd wagon, so yes, 5 spd wagons (non turbo) were sold here.

[EvanR]

Friends, thanks again for your help. Special thanks to yhzman for the photo, which I used in my article. I would have given you credit for the photo, but I have no idea what your name is!

Anyhow, if you'd like to read the article, you can find it here!

[casm]

Hi Evan.  Read the article on CC a couple of days ago, and enjoyed it.

Please tell us your thoughts regarding a non-brown, turbodiesel, manual, French wagon that's neither FWD nor RWD except on demand.

[EvanR]

On 11/28/2016 at 9:06 PM, casm said:

Hi Evan.  Read the article on CC a couple of days ago, and enjoyed it.

Please tell us your thoughts regarding a non-brown, turbodiesel, manual, French wagon that's neither FWD nor RWD except on demand.

Sure, I'll bite! What do you have in mind?

[casm]

On 11/30/2016 at 9:38 PM, EvanR said:

Sure, I'll bite! What do you have in mind?

There is a possibility that I'll be bringing in a 1990 505 Dangel wagon next year.  4x4, manual, 2.5TD with intercooler.  IIRC, it's blue, not brown.

When I say that this is a possibility, I mean exactly that.  The car belongs to friends of the family in France who have basically given me right of first refusal on it, but this hinges on two things: one, that they're ready to sell (which it sounds like they may be getting close to); two, that everything on my end meshes with their timing.

No promises, but that's the basic idea.

[Goce]

I've personally never seen an 505 Dangel wagon but the reputation for toughness is legendary and is easy to see why when you see their construction.

[SRDT]

A blue one? Gendarmerie, EDF, or France Télécom?

[casm]

None of the above.  It's a private vehicle, not ex-service, and owned by the same family from new.  The blue is sort of a light silver-blue.

[Bean]

Holy smokes - I'll be seriously jelly if you land a Dangel in North America! 

I'm hoping to make mine a 2WD Dangel clone with a lift - Mostly for light trail duty so 2WD and a winch should let me get most places.

Rabin

[Goce]

Why do people avoid ex-service cars, i've always had good experience with them even my daily driver now use to be part of the presidential motorcade and it's been extremely well serviced and maintained, its factory paint is still in good shape.