Sushi Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 Well today i was going to take out the pug. So i started it for a few secs and it runned fine, then i shut it off. Since then it's almost impossible to start but about an hour later i changed some relays above the fusebox. Then it ignited again for a few secs.... wth! (i got it to ignite for 3 secs everytime i tried and it started 4-5 times, and i tested like every ten minutes for 3 hours that's the strange part it was dead a long time between the ignitions. (the starter works). The only thing i've done is to change the fuse card to a better one. But that can't be the problem. I have not started it since last spring before that it went fine. So long story short. I suspect it's the fuelpumps or some relay(s), something clogged maybe but not sure. After all this i tried startgas and it runned on the gas and then died! Crap darnit it has been in the garage for the winter and ran perfectly last summer. Any ideas? N9tea. Btw where are the fuelrelays i found them on the schedule but don't know where they are irl. /sushi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 Bad gas? Bad fuel pump? Crap clogging fuel line? andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushgo Posted June 3, 2011 Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 I had a hick up and suffering problem once and had my fuel system cleaned out. And the problem stopped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi Posted June 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2011 Ok... But i will test changing the fuelpump relay but i don't know where it is?! I definatly got bad grounds I'm aware of that because i found 2 burned blue cables when changeing the fuseboard. When i shut the key off the lights are on and the "open door signal" beeps. But i hope for now it's the relay because im in a hurry to get it out. Update: Now i have been working like all day long went and bought new relays cleaned up some grounds and now the instrument panel works perfectly .. The car still wont start. Tomorrow i will try measure if the main fuelpump gets any current. I do not hope so I also found some cables being loose to the alternator i suspect mr tinker was here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi Posted June 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 Anyone remember where the thread with the guy who restored his tank is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 4, 2011 Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 Just something to possibly check- there is a check valve on the fuel pump that went out on me several years ago. It is a little ball and spring affair. It's function is to keep the fuel running one way- to the injectors. It serves to keep the injectors pressurized. What happens is, it can quit working, mainly from corrosion. It's location is in the bottom of the fuel system, where moisture can accumulate. I remember buying a replacement separately years ago (it comes with a new fuel pump). Unfortunately, I didn't save the Bosch part number. It is located on the pump as a fitting, just past the business end. As I recall fuzzily, a good new one would allow you to blow into it with your mouth on one end, but not the other. A bad one would do the opposite. The main problem symptom was it might take several start attempts over a time. At any rate, it is a good idea to run some dry gas in the tank every now and again. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted June 4, 2011 Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 don't recall any threads on a full "restoration" of a fuel tank...i pulled my tank & had it cleaned out a while back, the thread for that is here. it's going to be a bit different for you, since you have a euro-spec car with a different fuel tank location. my fuel strainer (sock) was shredded, i tried to find a replacement but here in the US, you can't buy the strainer by itself. i ended up buying a whole new in-tank fuel pump with strainer, and i'm keeping the old pump as a spare (as i have learned to do as a 505 owner ). the new unit came from miles at western hemispheres, a parts place in northern california that specializes in french cars. the pump/strainer is a pierburg unit, part # 7.21088.62.0 -- if you end up needing to replace your fuel pump. also, iirc, the fuel pump relay is under the left-hand side of the instrument panel...maybe somebody with a better memory can correct me... andré Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi Posted June 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2011 Thank you for your reply! Well it was that thread i was looking for , remembered it was something about tank restoration. It smells petrol in the trunk, i do hope the vent hose is broken and not the tank. When i opened the 2 plastic caps in the trunk i found the tankpump and under the other cap i broke a lug and it really smells petrol here cannot be good :S. Someone here said that it was for measuring fuel level. Luckily i got some pumps over from my new spareparts cars. I also cannot find the external fuelpump i thought it was around the injectors somewhere but cannot find it i know how it looks like though . As you can tell im still pretty inexperienced on fixing cars but the pug is a pretty good car to learn on heh. So strange that it ignites for 3 secs and then it dies. After like 10 min i can get it to ignite again for 3 secs and then it dies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 5, 2011 Report Share Posted June 5, 2011 "So strange that it ignites for 3 secs and then it dies. After like 10 min i can get it to ignite again for 3 secs and then it dies." That's exactly what mine was doing, except that after I got it started, I was able to drive it home. The main pump is located under the rear seat. You need to be very careful not to overheat the starter from prolonged cranking. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted June 6, 2011 Report Share Posted June 6, 2011 Mine would start and run as lomg as you want it to. But as soon as you switch of the engine and try to start it again, it wont start. I will have to let it stay/cool for about 20 mins before it will start again. All these started when i took the car to a rewire to help me fix my starter. He left it and started to touched the car wirings i dint ask him to. He did something on the key switch and the fuse box which am yet to know what the hell he tampered that is causing this. The first ime it would start, it would idle roughly, but would clear a min or two after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 Thank you for your reply! Well it was that thread i was looking for , remembered it was something about tank restoration. It smells petrol in the trunk, i do hope the vent hose is broken and not the tank. When i opened the 2 plastic caps in the trunk i found the tankpump and under the other cap i broke a lug and it really smells petrol here cannot be good :S. Someone here said that it was for measuring fuel level. Luckily i got some pumps over from my new spareparts cars. I also cannot find the external fuelpump i thought it was around the injectors somewhere but cannot find it i know how it looks like though . As you can tell im still pretty inexperienced on fixing cars but the pug is a pretty good car to learn on heh. So strange that it ignites for 3 secs and then it dies. After like 10 min i can get it to ignite again for 3 secs and then it dies. Sushi, What if the problem is lack of spark/no spark? It might not be fuel that is causing the problem with yours, likewise mine. Have you tried replacing the relay that feeds the Ignition Coil? You never can tell. I will also replace mine to see what happens. I will also check the fuse box and the connections on the key switch. Ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Sushi, What if the problem is lack of spark/no spark? It might not be fuel that is causing the problem with yours, likewise mine. Have you tried replacing the relay that feeds the Ignition Coil? You never can tell. I will also replace mine to see what happens. I will also check the fuse box and the connections on the key switch. Ikenna. I've tested the spark plug taking them out, and they give a spark. i've also tried changing the ignitioncoil from 1 of my other cars and it works. I've tried change the relay to a new one sadly it was a wrong one (didnt get a spark) so i thought that was the problem but i will get a new one when i get home. I've changed the fusebox card to a more pretty one and i've changed it back. At first start with the new card and new relays it worked for a min then i shut it off then 4 minutes later i tried to start again and then all my problems occured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 What year is your car? 85's had an issue with the injection ECU so you might want to check that as well if you have a good spare ECU as it sounds like the car is firing and running on the cold start injector momentarily each time it runs. Fuel pump relay is also a definite possibility, as is fuel filter and the fuel pump itself. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi Posted June 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 It's an 1988 N9tea. I've now changed all 3 relays from my other car (Which works) under the dash. + the four relays above fusebox. I've also measured the voltage to the in-tank fuelpump and it got 12volts and i can hear that it is working. Today I changed fuelfilter it wasn't clogged. I have not found the highpressure pump yet It should be under the car somewhere after the filter? I've followed the fuellines to the front and up but i cannot find it. :/ But that about the cold start injector seems reasonable. As said, it ignites runs to 1000rpm and dies instantly, then it wont start. After a minute i can start it again 1000rpm and then dies instantly. Will check that tomorrow thanks Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Fuel pump is right beside the filter... I would run 12V direct to it to make sure it's all good. But first - I would check the fuel pump fuse behind the ashtray in the dash. If your car has ABS there are some ABS fuses in there as well, but there should be a 15A fuel pump fuse in there as well towards the right. (check all of them). On my 89' the fuse was OK, but it has a poor connection so pulling it out and back in fixed the no start issue which was the same as you described. It happened again a few days later so I crimped the female fuse connector a bit to tighten the connection and it's been fine ever since. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 It's not the fuse ive checked and measured so both fuelpumps work and i can hear at least one of them both got current. Fuel filter is changed. (still not haven't found the little blue fuelpump it is after the filter (beercan) right? Ignition coil and distributor is changed. And checked for sparks Fuelpumprelay is changed. All relays under hood is changed. Fuses are changed. Grounds is polished. I also get a strange current from my - pole on the battery and not from the + pole. Shouldnt i get current from the + as well? o,O But as i said 100 times it starts revs to 1000rpm and dies it's like some sensor tells it to shutdown what could that be? The ECU unit where can i find that? Is it one of the boxes on the passanger foot side? And if it is the coldstart injector working isn't it strange all the other injectors are not. Fuck I've looked forward taking it out and when i do it stops working, piece of shit car (still love it though) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 You say you changed the fuel pump relay - but to make sure - did you change the tachymetric relay under the dash near the steering column? It controls the fuel pump and it confirms the engine is running in order to feed the pumps power. So when you start it, fuel pumps get power momentarily and the car starts. If the relay is toast - it won't confirm ignition (Pulse from the coil I believe) and it'll cut power to the pumps after the start time runs out. You can confirm this by running 12V power direct to the fuel pump to over-ride the tachymetric relay. If it runs properly - get a new tachymetric relay. And yes - it's about the size of a bear can beside the filter. You should be able to access the electrical connections on it and run 12V direct. (Long wires from the car, or from another car battery works fine) Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 You say you changed the fuel pump relay - but to make sure - did you change the tachymetric relay under the dash near the steering column? It controls the fuel pump and it confirms the engine is running in order to feed the pumps power. So when you start it, fuel pumps get power momentarily and the car starts. If the relay is toast - it won't confirm ignition (Pulse from the coil I believe) and it'll cut power to the pumps after the start time runs out. You can confirm this by running 12V power direct to the fuel pump to over-ride the tachymetric relay. If it runs properly - get a new tachymetric relay. And yes - it's about the size of a bear can beside the filter. You should be able to access the electrical connections on it and run 12V direct. (Long wires from the car, or from another car battery works fine) Rabin Yep I've changed that relay I also measured the current at the 15A fuelpumpfuse and it gets current and it did not when taking out the relay. I meant the fuelfilter is big as a beercan and its under the tank in the back of my car. There is no pump there it must be under the hood somewhere Could it be an immobilizer? Do you think the 505 got one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 I would make sure the fuel pumps are still getting power after the car stalls - or can you still hear it running when the car dies? Since it provides power in two states - you need to test both states. (Start / running). If fuel is OK - then I would check that the spark isn't cut when it dies. Easiest way to do that would be with a timing light - if the light stops flashing the instant the engine dies then an ignition component is at fault. Symptoms still make me think the tachymetric relay. It's different than any other relay and quite expensive - so if it's not the relay itself I'd look at it's connector and wiring. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Suchi, I would advice you to do as Rabin suggested. First, run another connections from the battery to the 2 fuel pumps, to ensure that the pump is continuously on , incase the Tachymetric relay is the culprit. In fact, I would have suggested that you check the Tachy relay before now, but didnt know that Turbos also have the relay. I thought only the GTIs (ZDJL) have the relay. Doing this will rule out the fuel pump relay. If that dosent solve the problem, you may have to check the injectors spray pattern. Not really checking how they spray, but to know if they still spray when the car stalls and wouldnt start again. Pull out all the Injectors, leaving them attached to the fuel rail. Get 4 transparent bottles/cups or glasses and place the injectors inside the bottles. Have someone help you clank the engine while you observe. If fuel still comes out from the Injectors nozzles, then the Injectors relay & the Injection ECU are ok. If the reverse is the case (no visible sign of fuel), then the Injectors relay, Tachy relay or ECU will be the culprit. Since you maintaned that you get sparks from the spark plugs when the car wouldnt start, the lack of fuel should be the cause then. Try the steps above and I believe one of them will diagnose the issue. These tips I learnt them while diagnosing my ZN3J (505 V6), courtesy of Rabin. If not him, I wouldnt have known half of what I know now on diagnosing EFIs. Goodluck! Ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 I would make sure the fuel pumps are still getting power after the car stalls - or can you still hear it running when the car dies? Since it provides power in two states - you need to test both states. (Start / running). If fuel is OK - then I would check that the spark isn't cut when it dies. Easiest way to do that would be with a timing light - if the light stops flashing the instant the engine dies then an ignition component is at fault. Symptoms still make me think the tachymetric relay. It's different than any other relay and quite expensive - so if it's not the relay itself I'd look at it's connector and wiring. Rabin I've changed that tachyrelay once again from my spare car and my spare car do start. I've got a fuelcutout last summer though I will start replacing my fuelpump next but cant find it. I've followed the fuel line from my back through the bearcan fuelfilter to the fuelrail but cannot find it. Maybe i lost it on the road somewhere ^^, If just could lift the car up. And i measure the current through the fuelpumpfuse when starting it and gets current constantly. But it runs on startgas so it must get spark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Suchi, if you cant really find the main fuel pump, then is a possibility than the car runs on only the In-Tank fuel pump, i.e someone removed & bypassed the main pump and ran pipe connection directly to the In-tank pump. The In-Tank Pump, though would start and run the car, wont run the engine well. The car will be moving sluggishly & that would kill the In tank pump faster or drastically reduce its lifespan and be giving you similar symptom your car is having. Or it could be that your In-Tank Pump is falling and is causing Fuel starvation: starting and cutting out fuel, especially when fuel is below half tank. If your fuel in the Tank is below half Tank, top fuel and try again. You never can tell. But its weird that you still cant find the pump. Maybe someone changed the position. The buzzing sound/noise of the pump when running or on should lead you to where it is. Ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Well i found the pump it was behind the sparewheel... but i dont get why they put the filters behind the pumps?! Well both pumps are pumping after the car dies and they got current. So i get fuel to rail i get sparks and the shit wont stay ignited wth is wrong. i broke my fuelsensor b4 but i had 30litres of fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Is it possible to read error codes from the car if i take it to a workshop Also unplugged the airflowmeter? (dont know word) didnt help, I've put an open airfilter on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Sorry - didn't even occur to me that you have the euro version with the under trunk fuel tank. North American cars have the tank IN the trunk - so our instructions for the fuel pump location are for the NA cars. Back to your problem - I'm thinking it could be one of the ECUs then, but you will first need to see if it's fuel or spark that is getting shut off. The fact it starts and runs means that both fuel and spark are functioning when you first start - but something is killing spark or fuel after it starts. Only other thing I can think of that might cause it to stall would be the AFM (VAF) is shot, or it's the fuel or ignition ECU's. You mention your spare car - so if it's a 505 turbo I'd start swapping things one at a time to see if that does it. 99 times out of a 100 though - it's an electrical connection somewhere on these cars. They're terrible unsealed electrical connectors are usually the source of all kinds of problems. Another guess would be a BIG vacuum leak - a big leak would stall a car out as well. These cars have very little in the way of diagnostics, so taking it in to get codes read won't help. Sadly you'll need to use the process of elimination to narrow down the issue. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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