F1Weekly Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Just purchased 1987 Peugeot 505 STX and I can't get her started!...I don't here the Fuel pump turning on, I tested it and it's good! Checked the fuse behind the ash tray and It's good!...Switched the relays no change. Sprayed starter fluid into the throttle body and she starts for a moment...Help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Welcome to the forum! It sounds very much like the relays above the brake reservoir. Replacing them or even swapping them around is often enough to fix the problem as one of the biggest issues these cars has is unsealed electrical connections that are prone to corrosion. If the relays get rules out - I'd then suspect the tank could be rusty and the fuel filter completely plugged... Another possibility is the sensor on the bell housing that tells the ECU the engine is rotating. If that has failed then that can prevent a start as well... One of our members in Nigeria had a v6 swapped car that was a mess - but he did his homework and became an expert - I'll find Ikenna's post and paste the link. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1Weekly Posted April 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 I replaced the relays no change the fuel system still does not turn on. This car was a daily driver just a year ago, clean fuel and I installed new fuel filter. Is the bell housing sensor easy to get to?...Thanks! Also...When I spray starter fluid into the throttle body the car starts and idles for a second so that should eliminate the crank shaft sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Ikenna's epic post - well worth a read as there's lots of diagnostic info in it... http://www.505turbo.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1848-help-505-v6-emits-black-smokes-from-the-exhaust-pipe/?fromsearch=1 My understanding of that senso is that it needs to give a signal to the ECU before te ECU will send power to the fuel pump relay... Since your car runs, I would try running 12V directly to the fuel pump - the caveat being that the injectors still need to fire which the ECU controls. Senso is right at the 12 o'clock position, and it could simply be dirty on the end - so I'd pull it and check first. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1Weekly Posted April 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Yes I did hook 12 volts to the pump, I had fuel pressure at the fuel rail but...The injectors are not powered up and still no start... I'll check the sensor...Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted April 20, 2014 Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 Sorry for responding late everyone. Just seeing the thread today. Now, you said the engine starts whenever you spray in carb cleaner or starting fluid into the throttle body. It means the RPM sensor is doing it's work, hence the spark plug wouldn't have fired and ignite the little fluid sprayed in. It also means the ignition relay, one of the 3 ignition/injection relay above the fuse box, its working. Its the only 3 relays that work independently among them. To identify the ignition relay, check wires behind the relay sockets. Any wire you see with these numbers stamped on: 32A, 118, 6, 2R or M1, is the ignition relay. The socket its connected to is the ignition relay. Leave that relay and concentrate on the two relays that controls the injection system. You said you bypassed and connected 12v directly to the Fuel pump and it came to life, but the injectors refused to work. What it means is the that Fuel pump relay is not working. Why? Because the fuel pump relay supplies 12v+ to the 2 fuel pumps at the rear and the 6 injectors. So if the fuel pump relay fails, both the fuel pumps and injectors won't function. To identify the fuel pump relay, the wires behind the socket are stamped with the following numbers: 76, 96A, 751, 37, 20, 60 & 17. The wire 76 supplies 12v+ to the fuel pumps. While the wire 37 supplies the same to the 6 injectors. But note that the injection ECUs supplies ground to Fuel pump relay (wire 17), while the 2nd injection relay, MAF relay, triggers the Fuel pump relay with 12v+ supply( wire 60). If the MAF relay fails, the Fuel pump relay won't work because its triggered by the MAF relay. Likewise, sometimes, the injection ECU wiring connector would corrode and it would fail to supply ground to the Fuel pump relay when you crank the engine, which will only supply ground if the RPM sensor (Crankshaft position sensor) on the bellhousing works. To test if ground supply to fuel pump relay is the culprit, probe the wire 17 from behind the relay socket with either Digital Multimeter (DMM) ground lead or you put one lead of test light and place the positive lead on the positive battery terminal head. Have someone crank the engine while you watch. The DMM will give you 12v after 2 seconds or so or the test light will lit after 2 seconds while cranking the engine. There is a delay in LH2-2 Jetronic system. Thats why it takes some cranks for ZN3J to start. Anyway, if the lights doesn't come on while cranking the engine, then the injection ECU or the connector is the culprit. Or there could be a cut on the wire between the relay and ECU connector. You can bypass it temporary by cutting of the wire 17 behind the relay socket, run a constant supply of ground from another source to the relay. It will power the relay as soon as the ignition comes on. To me i prefer this connection and thats how i connected mine now, because the fuel pump starts running as the ignition is on and the buzzing sound of the fuel pumps helps you to know the pumps are ok. Anytime you don't hear the noise, then you would know either the pumps have failed or the relay has failed. In this connection, when you start and switch off engine, it will go off, but the pumps will run for 3 seconds before going off. It does this because of the MAF relay that supplies power to fuel pump relay. Remember, the MAF relay supplies 12v+ to MAF which will continue to supply power to MAF after the engine is switched off for 3 seconds or so, to heat and clean off dirt on the tiny wire inside the MAF (self cleaning MAF). So, while its cleaning the MAF, the Fuel pumps will keep running until MAF relay goes off. But with factory connection, the wire 17 will stop supplying ground to the Fuel pump relay as soon engine goes off, since the supply comes from injection ECU, even though the MAF relay continues to supply 12v+ to the Fuel pump, but it won't run without ground supply that has gone off. If you want to know if MAF relay still supplies 12v+ to Fuel pump relay which triggers on the relay, test wire 60 behind the fuel pump relay with DMM or test light as you crank the engine. If it gives the power, then the MAF relay is not the cuprit. If no power, then confirm if the MAF relay still get ground supply. The MAF relay gets it ground from injection ECU too via wire 21. Test the wire 21 while you crank the engine to know if the injection ECU still send the ground to the relay. You may have to consider cleaning the injection ECU wiring connector. TO identify MAF relay, you will find behind relay socket: wires 21, 20C, 20E, 60, 74 & 9. I believe you will find the culprit if you carry out the test above. Ikenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anj Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 That reply will be printed and kept in my glove box or better yet, a large sticker under the hood. Thanks Ikenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1Weekly Posted April 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 I'll be trying these tests today!...Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1Weekly Posted April 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 OK did the tests....I went from the back of the relay plug took wire # 17 and jumped to ground on the battery. Still the pump doesn't turn on so.... I put 12v from a separate power supply confirming the pump is good. Decided to try starting the car and PRESTO the car started!! and idled perfectly! So it looks like wire # 76 on the relay plug ( 12 V to the pump ) is NOT hot when the ignition is turned on??? and when I apply 12 V to wire # 76 directly from the battery the pump still does not turn on! So is it possible there's a break in the wire between the relay and the pump??? It was nice to finally hear the car run!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 Wow! Thats good to hear. Now, run another wire from wire #76 from the back of the fuel pump relay to the fuel pump. Crank the engine and let see what happens. You are making progress Ikenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 21, 2014 Report Share Posted April 21, 2014 I would suspect connectors between relay and the pump first. Best way to diagnose is to first make sure it's outputting power to the pump with a volt meter or test light. Then check the connections for power - it could very well be connectors at pump itself that are corroded. Definitely very close to fixing it now though - so congrats! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1Weekly Posted April 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2014 OK Ran a jumper between the back of the relay wire # 76 to the pump and BINGO! The car ran and I drove her to the gas station for some petrol ! And the first thing I noticed is the speedometer is not working? Thanks for all the help!!!...I couldn't of done it without you guy's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Speedo's are a common failure point due to lack of maintenance / lubrication. They usually break right at the transmission end. There was a group buy a while back, but you may also be able to fix it with a universal cable repair kit. Glad you got it fixed - looks like a very nice car indeed. Curious though - when I was checking out your Facebook pics I came across some 504 pictures - do you (did?) have a 504 as well? Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1Weekly Posted April 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Sold the 504 needed a complete engine rebuild. My 505 came from the same family that owned the 504, the owner passed away and his widow called me and asked if I wanted the 505 which I had seen when purchasing the 504. I also have a 1952 Citroen 11CV Traction Avant, I'm restoring a 1937 Citroen 7C Traction Avant and, I have a 1967 Porsche 912. Clark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 interesting group of cars, clark! are you documenting the restoration of the 7c anywhere that we can see? andré ps -- rabin -- pm sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 23, 2014 Report Share Posted April 23, 2014 Very cool collection of cars Clark! Hopefully the 504 went to an enthusiast as it looked to be in decent condition with a great patina. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1Weekly Posted May 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 OK Now I have a big problem!...The Peugeot Failed the smog test!! and I suspect the EGR valve...Where is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 Can you post the results? Knowing what it failed, and by how much is a good clue. EGR should be easy to find as it has to be connected to the exhaust. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted May 2, 2014 Report Share Posted May 2, 2014 ZN3J does not have EGR valve. That is, if you are referring to your 505 V6. Ikenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1Weekly Posted May 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 That explains why I can't find it!! There are three categories: HC (PPM) CO % and NO (PPM) It failed the NO Nitrous Oxide ...Acceptable Max: 785 The 505 produced 2858 at 15MPH Catalytic converter perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted May 3, 2014 Report Share Posted May 3, 2014 High NO is likely the catalytic converter, but it can also be carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. You might want to try a Seafoam treatment to see if that clears up the deposits. Not usually good ideal for catalytic converters so you might want to do it first before putting a new 3way Catalytic converter on. I like using Seafoam direct into the intake when running. Makes a a fair bit of smoke out the tail pipe, and I usually rev the motor during the treatment so your neighbours might not like you very much. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommy kinder Posted May 9, 2014 Report Share Posted May 9, 2014 hi Knox is caused by high engine temperature I would say adjust the timing but it is not adjustable on this engine are you running high octane fuel have you ran any fuel system cleaner through it I work all my 87 STX v6 my automatic model just barely passing on the knox I drove that car for a year and a half before electrical problems plagued me to sell it but I replaced it with the same year and model in blue with a5 speed manual transmission with less electrical gremlins also is your detenation lamp blinking causing it to run in limp mode or retarded timing mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1Weekly Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Just want to let everyone know my 505 passed smog and she's running great, All I had to do was install a new catalytic converter... Now can anyone help with the factory stereo code? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 if you still have the manuals for your car -- it's in the radio manual. if you don't have that you may be SOL because when peugeot left the US, all of that stuff was thrown out. what make is the radio? i understand that it's the OE radio that came with the car, but those were all made by clarion and other manufacturers. if you can tell us the make, we may be able to help. alternately, i've heard that the security on these older head units can sometimes be reset by putting them in the freezer for a few hours. never tried it myself, though. andré Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1Weekly Posted July 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2014 I'll try the freezer trick!!! OK...Now I'm trying to get the AC working again and as I went to install a new belt for the AC (it was removed when I bought the car) There seems to be a bracket missing below the compressor that guides the belt...Anybody have a factory photo of the engine bay with AC belt installed? Thanks again everyone!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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