Vjeko Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 Regards, I have disassamble steering racks of Peugeot 505 and here are some details: The steering racks without power steering has the pinion gear with only 7 teeth, it is very small and you need to turn the steering wheel over one and half more then on power steering racks from center position to the end. The steering rack with power steering up to year '84 has the pinion gear with 9 teeth. The steering rack with power steering from year '84 and for later models has 10 teeth. The turbo and V6 models has another spare part numbers of steering pinion and aluminum steering housing. I assume maybe the pinion gear is bigger and has more teeth, maybe 11 or 12 teeth, I don't know. Has anybody opened Turbo and V6 steering rack and see how many teeth they have on pinion gear? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryancohnracing Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 I had a Turbo rack apart for rebuilding last year but never bothered to count the pinion teeth. Frankly never thought to do so. Mine is converted to a manual rack and its a bit tough to steer in parking maneuvers but in normal driving I do not notice it at all. On track I' sure I won't either. I'd have to guess that the pinion teeth and rack teeth are matched sets so a 9 tooth won't fit in a 7 tooth rack. I don't know this for fact on 505's butas a general rule with gears of all kinds it is fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 Bryan, how did you convert your rack to manual? When I converted the rack on my RX7 I took it apart and had to weld up a part of it that otherwise caused a few degrees of slop in a converted rack. Is the 505 rack similar? I have seen many people simply loop the lines but that really seems like a job half done. In addition to welding the little quill there were a few seals in my rack that came out to make a noticeable difference in feel. Sorry for the thread hijack Vjeko, I have not yet disassembled any 505 racks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 Hi Matt, 505 racks are power assisted via an an external ram rather than internally like most other racks. So I don't think you need to do anything like the rack mods others do when converting a PS rack. You should be able to just plug the lines as the lines are just used to control the ram movement. My 504 is manual, and there isn't the slightest bit of play - but I'll be "re-powering" the rack as my Momo wheel is smaller than stock and low speed is a bit more of a chore compared to with the stock wheel. http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/id/1709/project-miatabusa-part-5--de-powering-the-steering-rack.aspx Vjeko - can you tell me the number of rack teeth the various racks move with one complete turn? I don't have any disassembled - but I have one with no boots on it, so I could compare your rate to mine to see if the gear ratios are the same. Edit: Can you also tell me the distance the rack moves with one turn of the steering wheel? Distance moved will be more accurate in comparing rack ratios. I do know PS racks have a much quicker ration than manual racks, so for racing you definitely want a PS rack, OR - run a manual rack with a steering quickener to get it quicker - but not too quick. For instance: PS racks are 2.5 turns lock to lock, manual rack is 4 turns lock to lock. With a 2:1 quickener - the manual rack becomes 2 turns lock to lock which would be perfect. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 WRT to steering rack quickeners, i had heard the term but didn't know exactly what they did. did some quick googling, found this thread. it's from a honda forum, so they're discussing civics, but it's pretty basic and has good info. i especially liked the embedded video (a bit past halfway down the page), very clear explanation for noobs like myself... andré Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vjeko Posted April 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 @Bean, all racks has the same numbers of teeth and the teeth dimensions are the same regardless is it manual rack or PS rack. The difference is only that PS rack has pressed the big ring at the end of rack on passenger side where is bolted servo cylinder for assist. The differences are in aluminum steering housings. The more teeth pinion gear has the bigger diameter is and the pinion gear swivel has bigger distance from rack. Thats why the aluminum housings are different. All PS racks are the same (up to '84 (for pinion 9 teeth), after '84 (for pinion 10 teeth) even for some series turbo and V6 but not for all turbo and V6 series. I'll foto this racks and pinions after tomorow and show you what am I talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted April 12, 2012 Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 Good to know about being able to just plug the lines at the rack. I have my pump off right now (taking the EGR off is a lot more involved than you'd think!) and it opens a lot of space down there not having a pump in the way. I'm going to see if I can snake some intercooler pipe around the pump first, but if not looks like it will be plugging time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douvrin504 Posted April 12, 2012 Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 Hi, I know that steering without servo 504 and 505, the ratio 22.2: 1 (4.5 turns) 505 and 504 with servo 17:1 (3.5 turns) 505 Turbo steering rack, 15,5:1 ? (2.9 turns) think this is the fastest available to 505, I have this in my 504, but would like to have an even faster 2.5 type turns should look perfect. Are there more types? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 12, 2012 Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 Good to know about being able to just plug the lines at the rack. I have my pump off right now (taking the EGR off is a lot more involved than you'd think!) and it opens a lot of space down there not having a pump in the way. I'm going to see if I can snake some intercooler pipe around the pump first, but if not looks like it will be plugging time. The TD has a ton of weight on the front so low speed driving will be a good work out. A bigger steering wheel would help... As for the EGR - I wanna source a non-egr manifold to clean it up instead of messing with blocking plates and such. If I can't find one - I've got a spare manifold that I'll cut off the EGR protrusions and get it welded up. I also want the intake and intercooler off the XD3TE euro cars. Great info on steering racks as well! If you want 2.5:1 steering - I think the best bet would be to use a manual rack with a steering quickener. If you fabricated the mounts well - I think it would feel great. Perfect for the ice! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vjeko Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 The both racks are from Peugeot 505 year '86. Manual steering rack 7 teeth pinion is from elementary GL model engine XN1A double carburettor (same XN6 engine only not injected) and power steering rack 10 teeth pinion is from SR model the same engine but with more equipment. Both racks has 34 teeth and are the same dimensions. Tie rods for models fitted with ABS/ALB are 4 centimeters longer because are fitted with different front suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vjeko Posted July 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 I have very disappointing information of turbo/V6 steering rack regardless variable or non variable power steering. I dissasemble steering rack of turbo model year '88 fitted with variable power steering and it has only 9 teeth! The teeth rack is the same as on models with 10 teeth, it has 34 teeth. So finaly; Manual steering rack has 7 x 34 teeth. Turbo/V6 hydraulic power assisted with or without variable power steering rack has 9 x 34 teeth. Conventional hydraulic power assisted steering rack early models (with high and steel pinion housing) has 9 x 34 teeth. Conventional hydraulic power assisted steering rack later models '84 on (with short aluminium pinion housing "Bendix") has 10 x 34 teeth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 thanks for researching this information and posting it, vjeko! this is very useful data... andré Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vjeko Posted July 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 I'll post pictures tomorow. You're welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 Thank you very much for this information Vjeko! With your findings do you think you will try a steering quickener on the input / steering shaft to get the quicker rack you desire? 1.5:1 for the later style racks, or a 2:1 for the older style (7 tooth) manual racks should yield a pretty nice quick rack. That should give you: Manual steering rack has 7 x 34 teeth = rack ratio 4.86. 1.5:1 quickener = 3.24 rack ratio; 2:1 quickener = 2.43 rack ratio Turbo/V6 hydraulic assisted w/wo variable power steering rack has 9 x 34 teeth = rack ratio 3.77; 1.5:1 quickener = 2.52 rack ratio Conventional hydraulic assisted steering rack early models has 9 x 34 teeth = rack ratio 3.77; 1.5:1 quickener = 2.52 rack ratio Conventional hydraulic assisted steering rack later models '84 on has 10 x 34 teeth = rack ratio 3.40; 1.5:1 quickener = 2.27 rack ratio I think the 2:1 would be too much for the later racks - but I guess it depends on what you results you're after. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vjeko Posted July 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 The best version is 10 x 34. That means 34:10=3,4 turns from end to end. So, finaly from center to end is 3,4:2=1,7 turns. The worst version is on manual steering rack 7 x 34 because you need to make more turns with steering column for the same wheels angle. That means 34:7=4,9 turns from end to end. So, finaly from center to end is 4,9:2=2,4 turns. Somewhere between is turbo/V6 and older early conventional power steering racks (with high and made of steel pinion valve housing) version 9 x 34 . That means 34:9=3,7 turns from end to end. So, finaly from center to end is 3,7:2=1,9 turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Here we refer to the rack ration which is basically the turns the rack is capable of - same thing you described essentially but it's total turns. The easiest way I can see to improve that would be a steering quickener - unless your only purpose was to find the quickest stock rack... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryancohnracing Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Sorry, late returning to this thread.... I plugged the 4 lines holes in my rack, adding a few drops of ATF to each hole before plugging. Figure the valve needs a bit of lube to stay happy. Greased the rack and its happy happy. Bit of a pain to steer at slow speed, unnoticable at speed, to me anyway. I used new OEM boots, pressed the ram attachment off the right side of the rack and just let the boot cover it all up. It's plenty long. Regarding steering quickeners, you WILL loose feel/feedback. I know about a dozen of people that have tried them in their race cars and to a person they all gave up and went back to the stock/OEM set up due to loosing steering feel/feedback. On a race track that is hugely important, on the street maybe not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Is the losing feel because the feedback is muted - or compounded? I always thought feedback would be compounded and that any sort of kick back would be exaggerated which may make driving harder. My race prep is rally related and lots of guys using steering quickeners to help with keeping the car - especially RWD cars - under better control. Double edge sword as it can also make things worse very quickly - but if used properly they can help catch an errant slide better due to the quicker response. I personally have no problem with the 505 turbo on the dirt - I often joke that the steering is more "rudder" like as you just need a slight flick and power oversteer does the rest... It's a glorious thing when you nail compound / multiple curves perfectly. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.