Collision repairs

[Guest EUROTRASH]

Insurance won't pay for repairs, they've declared the car totaled, worth only $1020

It's an insult, treating my car like some piece of shit honda civic.. and I'll only get half of what I need to fix it.

It's unbelievable, but that's what I've got.

[bryancohnracing]

One word: Sue the Bastards! Ok that was 3 words, but still sue!

Actually, you can refuse to settle, find the true value of other cars in like condition and force them to adjust. It may take time.

The other thing to know is this: If you are not in a rush to settle, just say no, and tell them to contact you when they are ready to make a realistic offer. Of course you need to be prepared to wait a year or possibly more...

So sorry to hear of your bad luck and problems with insurance.

[Bean]

What he said ^^...

I've got a bunch of info from Dick Borio's 88' V6 that he's selling for $6K I can send you. Bombard them with details of all the work done to it so far - and above all else just keep saying no to their offer. The agent will eventually be under a lot of pressure to close the case as it will skew their reporting metrics - and that makes them look bad.

I'd also include the quote for $1600 and tell them that it is by far their best option otherwise you will take legal action. Pretty sure it won't be worth their time and hopefully they'll settle.

Rabin

[Guest EUROTRASH]

Thanks both.. that's pretty much what I had in mind but I wasn't sure.

This is a copy of the cost report that was submitted by the adjuster, funny thing is they couldn't find my car so they compared it to two other cars, but they don't say which cars.. for all I know they compared it to a 1987 ford tempo.

If any of you can think of a reliable source to get a cost estimate on my car please let me know..

Thank you

[geo]

Thanks both.. that's pretty much what I had in mind but I wasn't sure.

This is a copy of the cost report that was submitted by the adjuster, funny thing is they couldn't find my car so they compared it to two other cars, but they don't say which cars.. for all I know they compared it to a 1987 ford tempo.

If any of you can think of a reliable source to get a cost estimate on my car please let me know..

Thank you

This won't help now, but the way around this is to get an "agreed value" policy. That way, you pay your premium based on what you say the car is worth, not what the brain dead insurance company says after a wreck. The problem is finding a company that will issue an agreed value policy for a Peugeot. I tried it with Grundy and they told me Peugeot wasn't a collector's car!!??!! They were OK with an old Benz though. Maybe if enough of us requested classic insurance they would change their minds. Another classic car insurer is Hagerty's. I haven't tried with them yet...

-George

[andrethx]

This won't help now, but the way around this is to get an "agreed value" policy. That way, you pay your premium based on what you say the car is worth, not what the brain dead insurance company says after a wreck. The problem is finding a company that will issue an agreed value policy for a Peugeot. I tried it with Grundy and they told me Peugeot wasn't a collector's car!!??!! They were OK with an old Benz though. Maybe if enough of us requested classic insurance they would change their minds. Another classic car insurer is Hagerty's. I haven't tried with them yet...

-George

In addition to what everyone else has said (which is pretty much spot-on), I have one thing to add, which follows.

When your car is "totaled," the insurance company is essentially buying your car from you for whatever they think it's worth (in your case, $1,020). So they have decided that, to make you whole, they will give you the value of the car, which then becomes the property of the insurance company.

Time was, after one's car was totaled, you could buy it back from the insurance company, usually for less than what they gave you for it (especially if you waited a while), fix it up and get your car back. Most of the major US companies stopped this back in the 80s, however, because owners were buying their cars back, repairing them with chewing gum and glue and selling them as "never wrecked;" these cars became a problem for the insurance companies (liability issues). Since that time, most US insurance companies have a adopted a policy against selling totaled cars back to the original owners...most of these totaled cars are sent to the crusher.

So whether you take what the insurance company wants to give you, or hang tough and get a better settlement -- i.e., you convince the insurance company that your car is worth more (and maybe worth repairing) -- they're not going to be insuring you in the future (with this car). In the former case, you won't have the car. In the latter case, you will be too much expense/trouble to deal with.

Sorry to be Buzz Killington, but I wanted you to know what you are looking at going forward. Right now, your focus is on getting the best settlement you can, whether you keep the car or not. You can cross the other bridges when you get to them.

Andre

Additional edit: Just read the cost report you posted. I see that your insurance company is not one of the majors (Allstate, State Farm, et. al.) so they may not be complete bastards. Some smaller companies might let you keep the "corpse" after they total it -- getting rid of it is an expense, and they are not as worried about future litigation. You should find out what they mean by "totaled" -- do you get to keep the car, or not when you accept their settlement?

[Guest EUROTRASH]

Thanks everyone,

Actually my insurance is State Farm, the one on the report is the other guy's insurance, which is being nicer than my own. I asked State Farm for a little consulting and they were like.. "yup, nothing you can do", well thanks asshole, you don't even have anything invested in this and that's all you can say?? However they did say they would have no problem insuring the car, though I don't know what scheme this would fit into.

The part about 505s not being a collector's item is just unbelievable.. what, they're not rare? Really?

"Agreed value" policy, this sounds like the way to go. I sent Hagerty an email with all the info on my car, we'll see what happens.

Thanks Geo

I definitely appreciate all the info

[bryancohnracing]

I have used Parrish in the past to insure my Citation race car. (2000)

It was the most simple process I've ever had with any insurance company. They were easy to work with, did not question anything I said, etc.

Granted, this was a race car and the coverage I was buying was slightly different from a street car. Basically, it was off track, in transit, liability, theft, and crash. I'll explain: If you back into my racecar with your Buick? I'm covered. If I run down your kid while driving to the grid, we are both covered. If some schmuck steals my trailer in the hotel parking lot, the car was covered. Could have covered the trailer and tools/spares, but wow did that price go up! Coverage was not provided on the race track of course, but it was in the pit lane amazingly.

I bought $30,000 of agreed value coverage for $283 per year. No limits of any kind to number of events, or miles on the highway in transit, etc.

Worth checking out. I'll probably do it again once I get the 87 race car back on the road as I'd like to do the occasional car show with it.

[Bean]

In Saskatchewan, stated value insurance means we need to get the car professionally appraised, and once it's appraised by a licensed appraiser - the insurance company will insure for that value.

If you shop around and get a good appraiser who's a true car guy that can appreciate what the car is will mean that you should get a decent value to work with.

I would think if you were to get the car appraised to back up the stated value insurance - it should pretty much be bullet proof. That's all moot now though as this is only going forward.

For now - collect some adverts on NICE 505's that currently have sold well. That 505 wagon that recently sold on e-bay, Victor's 505 Turbo on Bring a Trailer, and Dick Borio's V6 for $6K should go a long way at showing the car is hardly worth $1K. If you bombard them with info and they still don't budge - I'd take them to small claims court and all the documentation you've collected will just help make your case.

I've been putting off getting my car appraised till I get more of the cosmetics done, but now I'm thinking maybe I should just get it done ASAP, and then redo it once it's done for max value...

Rabin

[Guest EUROTRASH]

In Saskatchewan, stated value insurance means we need to get the car professionally appraised, and once it's appraised by a licensed appraiser - the insurance company will insure for that value.

If you shop around and get a good appraiser who's a true car guy that can appreciate what the car is will mean that you should get a decent value to work with.

I would think if you were to get the car appraised to back up the stated value insurance - it should pretty much be bullet proof. That's all moot now though as this is only going forward.

For now - collect some adverts on NICE 505's that currently have sold well. That 505 wagon that recently sold on e-bay, Victor's 505 Turbo on Bring a Trailer, and Dick Borio's V6 for $6K should go a long way at showing the car is hardly worth $1K. If you bombard them with info and they still don't budge - I'd take them to small claims court and all the documentation you've collected will just help make your case.

I've been putting off getting my car appraised till I get more of the cosmetics done, but now I'm thinking maybe I should just get it done ASAP, and then redo it once it's done for max value...

Rabin

Yeah.. I was gonna get the car appraised once I repainted it, because honestly if you look at it now you'd think.. "Are you kidding me?".

If your car is ready to be appraised, I would do it.

I have used Parrish in the past to insure my Citation race car. (2000)

It was the most simple process I've ever had with any insurance company. They were easy to work with, did not question anything I said, etc.

Granted, this was a race car and the coverage I was buying was slightly different from a street car. Basically, it was off track, in transit, liability, theft, and crash. I'll explain: If you back into my racecar with your Buick? I'm covered. If I run down your kid while driving to the grid, we are both covered. If some schmuck steals my trailer in the hotel parking lot, the car was covered. Could have covered the trailer and tools/spares, but wow did that price go up! Coverage was not provided on the race track of course, but it was in the pit lane amazingly.

I bought $30,000 of agreed value coverage for $283 per year. No limits of any kind to number of events, or miles on the highway in transit, etc.

Worth checking out. I'll probably do it again once I get the 87 race car back on the road as I'd like to do the occasional car show with it.

If I can just get $2000 agreed value, that will pay for the repairs.. I'll have to work on it.

Thanks!

[norcal505]

That's bullshit, but these days some insurance co.s are screwing everyone over.

When I was in grade school, and my dad owned my 505, it was hit in a chain-accident (tapped) by some lady from Oregon. My dad was uneducated in regards to 'salvage' branding, etc, and he accepted the money. *Don't do it.* Sue. File for personal claims, whatever. If I could go 7 or 8 years back in time, I would prevent my car from ever being titled salvaged.

[Guest EUROTRASH]

That's bullshit, but these days some insurance co.s are screwing everyone over.

When I was in grade school, and my dad owned my 505, it was hit in a chain-accident (tapped) by some lady from Oregon. My dad was uneducated in regards to 'salvage' branding, etc, and he accepted the money. *Don't do it.* Sue. File for personal claims, whatever. If I could go 7 or 8 years back in time, I would prevent my car from ever being titled salvaged.

The only way I could prevent my car from being titled 'salvaged' would be to get a value quote higher than the repairs cost, realistically speaking I'm not sure I can, for now I'll just keep saying "NO" like the guys said.

[Peugeottogo]

Fernando, I have my 82 505 insured with Hagerty for 7,500 agreed replacement value. From what I know I may have the only 505 in the states insured with them. Yes rare but no market was my toughest hurdle with them to take it on.

Hang tough with the insurance company, you may have to substantiate your own findings to submit to them that your car prior to the accident was indeed a greater value than their offer.

Jeff

[Bean]

If stick to saying "No" to their low ball offers, and counter with repairs for the $1600 or whatever your damage estimate was - they have to conceded as it won't be worth the $600 difference between salvage cost and repairs.

Combine that with adverts from cars asking decent amounts of money (I mentioned previously) - Hell - Include the Vegas 505 for $40K!

I would also look at getting the car appraised as is. A knowledgable appraiser will be able to tell the car is undergoing a restoration and will take the fact into account which explains the paint situation. The very fact that you've invested so much time and effort should show that it's by no means a junker.

I'd also ask to see all documentation on how they arrived at the value so that you can deconstruct and invalidate it. If they ask why you want it - tell them it's for your legal case you're building when you take them to court. Small claims usually costs very little for you - but for them to send legal counsel will be MUCH more costly. When they see they're only $1K off the should hopefully concede to getting the car repaired. (Don't accept salvage title and $2K - specify that the car is repaired and the title remains as is.

Rabin

[andrethx]

I'd also ask to see all documentation on how they arrived at the value so that you can deconstruct and invalidate it. If they ask why you want it - tell them it's for your legal case you're building when you take them to court. Small claims usually costs very little for you - but for them to send legal counsel will be MUCH more costly. When they see they're only $1K off the should hopefully concede to getting the car repaired. (Don't accept salvage title and $2K - specify that the car is repaired and the title remains as is.

Rabin's right, in small claims court you have to sit around and wait for your case to be called. Usually they call the cases in which one or both of the parties have a lawyer (as a professional courtesy and to keep legal costs down), but one can't count on that so whomever they send will have to pretty much block out his/her morning for your case. A single court appearance by an attorney can eat up $1k, easy, not including prep time. My firm charges $350/hour here in LA for immigration work, I can't see it going below $200 - $250 even if you are in a small town.

So the economics are on your side. As everyone has suggested, document the value of your car, document the cost of the repairs (estimates). In court, the party with the best proof usually wins, so you want that to be you. Work on building your case for court (worst-case scenario) and let them know that you are building a proper case. Standard negotiating techniques -- stay cool, don't say too much other than to say what you want. You're not looking to bleed these guys, you just want what's fair.

Andre

additional edit: oh, btw, keep notes of every conversation you have with these guys (date, who you talked to, gist of conversation). When you communicate your demands & send your proof to them, send it certified and keep a copy for your court file. Sending your mail certified proves that they got it, and sends a signal that you are keeping track & are ready to sue if things don't go your way.

[Guest EUROTRASH]

Fernando, I have my 82 505 insured with Hagerty for 7,500 agreed replacement value. From what I know I may have the only 505 in the states insured with them. Yes rare but no market was my toughest hurdle with them to take it on.

Hang tough with the insurance company, you may have to substantiate your own findings to submit to them that your car prior to the accident was indeed a greater value than their offer.

Jeff

Reply from Hagerty:

"Thank you for taking the time to contact us. We have researched the value of the 1987 Peugeot on the website, www.nadaguides.com. This site lists the value of your vehicle in "average trade in" condition as $1,712. If the vehicle was in "clean trade in condition" the value would be around $2,137.

While we wish we could provide coverage to every vehicle, our current underwriting guidelines prevent us from doing so. In order for vehicles built in the 1980's to qualify, they must have been produced in limited numbers and hold a minimum value of $7,500. Unfortunately, due to the value of the 1987 Peugeot, we will be unable to offer coverage. Please feel free to check back with us in the future to see if our guidelines may have changed."

This is actually good news, even the lowest estimate is above the repair costs. I double checked on NADA Guides and got the retail value:

http://www.nadaguides.com/default.aspx?LI=...=84087&da=1

I think I've got something here

Jeff, did you have your car appraised before you got it insured with Hagerty?

[Bean]

Dude - it even gets better if you use the right car... Yours is an STX...

Proper NADA guide search...

Hey - $100 is $100...

If you show that the car was in the process of being restored, I bet you could make a valid arguement for the "average retail" pricing. Get a letter from the body shop you were going to use stating that they had been consulted prior to the accident and that work was to commense on the respray once the car had been prepped (panel alignments) and all needed parts were attained.

Rabin

[Guest EUROTRASH]

Dude - it even gets better if you use the right car... Yours is an STX...

Proper NADA guide search...

Hey - $100 is $100...

If you show that the car was in the process of being restored, I bet you could make a valid arguement for the "average retail" pricing. Get a letter from the body shop you were going to use stating that they had been consulted prior to the accident and that work was to commense on the respray once the car had been prepped (panel alignments) and all needed parts were attained.

Rabin

Good thinking man,

My car is an STI though, not that it matters.. and hey it's got 70k original miles, if that's not above average I don't know what is.

[Bean]

The US buggered up the naming convention for some reason. Technically your car is a STI-V6. It's supposed to be that V6 cars had the X as the third digit, so the STX was the V6 STI.

I've only ever seen the STI-V6 designation in the US for some reason. Everywhere else - the STI was the loaded 4cylinder naturally aspirated car.

Rabin

[Guest EUROTRASH]

The US buggered up the naming convention for some reason. Technically your car is a STI-V6. It's supposed to be that V6 cars had the X as the third digit, so the STX was the V6 STI.

I've only ever seen the STI-V6 designation in the US for some reason. Everywhere else - the STI was the loaded 4cylinder naturally aspirated car.

Rabin

Weird,

Well I think we're doing good with all the research and the ideas so far. The chick from the insurance company hasn't called me to make an offer yet, so we'll see what crazy BS she comes up with and we'll take it from there.

Thank you everyone

Quick question. Can this insurance company declare my car as "salvaged" without my consent? Do they require my signature or something?

[andrethx]

Quick question. Can this insurance company declare my car as "salvaged" without my consent? Do they require my signature or something?

Kinda. The title is issued by the state; in order for a vehicle to be considered a "salvaged" vehicle, the title has to be changed which must be done by the state. So the regular title must be surrendered to some legal authority (for example, the DMV or the clerk of court) so that the salvage title can be issued. The salvage title replaces the previous (regular) title.

The legal details vary by state, so I can't tell you the exact mechanism through which this will happen for you. But if the insurance company is going to total the car, the settlement agreement will dictate this -- either you will be authorizing them to "junk" the title when you sign off on the settlement, or the settlement will oblige you to sign over the title in a separate process. The settlement agreement is the set of papers you will have to sign when they pay you off (i.e., you won't sue them for this in the future, etc.).

This gets into the issue that I raised earlier, whether or not you will be keeping the car, buying it back, etc. You need to find this out before you sign anything. Many insurance companies won't insure a car with a salvage title.

Incidentally, if you do end up with your car, a check and a salvage title, it's not necessarily the end of the road. The salvage title laws vary tremendously from state to state. In my state of CA, for example, you can never remove "salvage" from your title; even if you totally repair the car to like-new condition. Other states are different, if the car is fixed up then you can convert the salvage title to a regular title again. This has led to a practice called "title washing," where you title the car in a different state (that allows you to convert to a clean title), convert the title, and re-register the now cleanly-titled car back in your original state. This is a bit complicated and a pain in the ass, though, so it's ultimately up to the owner as to whether or not it's worth it to do this.

Andre

[Guest EUROTRASH]

Kinda. The title is issued by the state; in order for a vehicle to be considered a "salvaged" vehicle, the title has to be changed which must be done by the state. So the regular title must be surrendered to some legal authority (for example, the DMV or the clerk of court) so that the salvage title can be issued. The salvage title replaces the previous (regular) title.

Right, my question is. Can all of this happen without me being able to stop it? Does the insurance company, or the state, or DMV need my signature?

I mean, if they don't then what is the point in saying NO? If they can do whatever they want, it just can't be that way.

[andrethx]

Right, my question is. Can all of this happen without me being able to stop it? Does the insurance company, or the state, or DMV need my signature?

I mean, if they don't then what is the point in saying NO? If they can do whatever they want, it just can't be that way.

If you own the car outright -- i.e., the title is in your name -- then you will have to agree to this at some point (if their intent is to junk your title). What that point is, I can't exactly tell you, but it will be part of the settlement process.

This is America, they can't take your property away without your permission. But if you can't agree to terms, then they won't pay you until you sue them. Depending on the economics of the crash (i.e, damage to your car versus its value) and the salvage title law in your state, you may or not prevail on this point in court.

Andre

[Guest EUROTRASH]

If you own the car outright -- i.e., the title is in your name -- then you will have to agree to this at some point (if their intent is to junk your title). What that point is, I can't exactly tell you, but it will be part of the settlement process.

This is America, they can't take your property away without your permission. But if you can't agree to terms, then they won't pay you until you sue them. Depending on the economics of the crash (i.e, damage to your car versus its value) and the salvage title law in your state, you may or not prevail on this point in court.

Andre

Ok, that's perfectly clear, I need to research the laws in the state of Utah where I live.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain this Andre

I'm expecting a letter from the insurance company tomorrow, I might share this with you guys to see what you think, I've already started drafting a response.

[andrethx]

Ok, that's perfectly clear, I need to research the laws in the state of Utah where I live.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain this Andre

I'm expecting a letter from the insurance company tomorrow, I might share this with you guys to see what you think, I've already started drafting a response.

Every state slices up the baloney a bit differently. Just as every state handles the meaning of salvage titles differently, they also handle the requirements for salvage titles differently. Long story short, if the damage exceed the value of the car, or some large percent of the value of the car, a salvage title must be issued. I don't know what the numbers are in Utah, but the settlement you've been offered clearly puts you in salvage territory (since they are only offering you $1k and you have $1.6k damages). If you agree to this settlement, you are effectively conceding that a salvage title is appropriate.

You want to establish the value of your car as far above what they are asserting here (as Rabin and the others have suggested), so as to take this deal far outside of "salvage title range." Their motivation is clear, they want to save money so that they can pay their CEO a kajillion dollars and so the claims adjuster can win that trip to Hawaii. You just want your damn car fixed.

Andre

subsequent edit: this will get you started:

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE41/htm/41_01a100500.htm

looks like it's up to the insurance company in Utah to declare whether a car is totaled or not. In CA, it's based on percentages. The type of law that Utah has here is known as "industry-friendly" in political circles, CA's law is "consumer-friendly." We pay more for insurance, so viva la difference.

if you can't get them to agree to a settlement that won't result in your car being totaled, it's off to small claims court where it'll most likely come down to dollars and cents. so you want get that appraised value up.