N9TE Posted April 6, 2008 Report Share Posted April 6, 2008 It drives as good as it looks, but there's water getting into the oil. Engine will have to come out for a rebuild in a few weeks. So these are the last pictures you'll see of it for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 6, 2008 Report Share Posted April 6, 2008 Your OCD has done that car well - looks fantastic! Pity about the water in the oil though. Good to hear you're going to rebuild too. I've been working on finding the necessary parts for a rebuild, but the main bearings and the rod bearings are proving to be a hard find indeed. I've been measuring up Ford 2.3 Turbo bits, and there's a possibility that the N9Te crank can be offset ground to accept the rods and bearings for the Ford bits. Combine with the bore increase to 95mm, the stroke and bore increase would make it a 2.5+L car. Stock rods for the Ford are too short - but they make a long rod version for the 2.3 as well. 2.3T guys also machine their cranks to accept 350 rods - so I'm assuming that would be a possibility for the N9TE as well. If you feel like brain storming build possibilities let me know - my plan is to rebuild it with readily available parts so the longevity of the car is ensured for a LONG time to come. BTW - also working on converting the ECU to a speed density system used in Turbo Dodges. So far the swap is turning out to be stupid EASY!! Mechanically - it's going to be cake. The only issue will be the level of integration into the car wiring wise. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted April 6, 2008 Report Share Posted April 6, 2008 awesome. its looking like new! just wondering as how you kept the silver trim on the bumpers so damn clean?! Mine's pretty faded. also, did you paint the rain gutters? Pardon my ignorance if i'm wrong, and all turbos came with them. looks very, very nice koll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peculiar33 Posted April 6, 2008 Report Share Posted April 6, 2008 Very nice looking car Koll! I think your photos have convinced me to track down a set of those later alloys. Also, I have a "turbo" badge for your spoiler that I could send your way, if I can find it and you can use it. Good luck with the motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted April 7, 2008 Report Share Posted April 7, 2008 say josh, you get your pics of the 505 yet? i wanna see them bro! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N9TE Posted April 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2008 Thanks for the kinds words everybody. If you're looking to make your car look as good as it can there are two sites I frequent that are dedicated to high-end detailing. www.detailingbliss.com and www.autopia.org A few hundred dollars (about 4) is what I have invested in detailing products and equiptment. Feel free to ask me any noob questions as there is a fair amount to learn I've found. Thanks for the offer on the turbo badge, Peculiar33 but it's not needed. I actually took it off as I figure the only people that need to know about the turbo are me and.... me. Rob, regarding the silver in the bumper, I think this was an upgrade that the factory did that all 87+ cars enjoy. Kindda like the firewall insulation. All crap before 87, nice after. I'd look into going to a few body shops and asking what they'd recommend in the way of replacing it with something more modern with the ability to stand up to the elements better than what was there. I think the hard part would be finding a guy who knows his stuff and who's not too busy doing $$$ fixes on dented Camrys to explain the options. Paint gutters? Eh, dunno. I got the car like that. The paint job is a mid/low one step enamel respray. I'd recommend it as the gutters are pretty funky in my opinion and way out of place on a modern car. I'd have stuck with what Pininfarina would have recommended. Rabin, I'm sure we'll get knee deep into options when I do the engine. How much difference are the rods for the 2.3 Ford and what would be required to modify them? Speed density? Are we talking about hot-wire (ala Motronic) MAF? In the Supra world the MKIIIs came with the same Bosch L-Jetronic system we have. They run into issues when trying to up the HP more than 50% with stock Fuel components. I'm shooting for an honest everyday 250 HP, so it'll be close and fuel is the most important factor I think. Would I be wrong in assuming that the ignition could keep up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peculiar33 Posted April 7, 2008 Report Share Posted April 7, 2008 Haha- I understand. The extra badge was from the '85 I used to drive, and I took it off for the same reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 7, 2008 Report Share Posted April 7, 2008 Paint gutters? Eh, dunno. I got the car like that. The paint job is a mid/low one step enamel respray. I'd recommend it as the gutters are pretty funky in my opinion and way out of place on a modern car. I'd have stuck with what Pininfarina would have recommended. Rabin, I'm sure we'll get knee deep into options when I do the engine. How much difference are the rods for the 2.3 Ford and what would be required to modify them? Speed density? Are we talking about hot-wire (ala Motronic) MAF? In the Supra world the MKIIIs came with the same Bosch L-Jetronic system we have. They run into issues when trying to up the HP more than 50% with stock Fuel components. I'm shooting for an honest everyday 250 HP, so it'll be close and fuel is the most important factor I think. Would I be wrong in assuming that the ignition could keep up? Gutters - the gutters have this nasty brittle plastic cover that is easily popped off. Underneath is a painted steel gutter that looks 10x better than the plastic cover ever did. First thing I rip off when I get a 505... When I paint my car - I'll likely shave my gutters completely off. Koll - Speed density is a MAP based system - so it just uses pressure differentials to determine flow from known calculations in the ECU. Guys have hacked the ECU so that you can change the different parameters (Such as Volumetric Efficiency) so that it can be tuned for other motors. Once installed, it handles spark, fuel, cooling fans, electronic control for boost, cruise etc etc... Key is to adapt all the components from the Turbo dodges for the ECU to control - and so far it's looking like a real easy install. I'm blogging the conversion - but I'm hoping to have my 85' 505 Turbo running SMEC in about 1 month if all goes well. (Limited time - could do it in a weekend if I could work on it all day!) If installed successfully - 250 hp would be cake for a stock engine. My goal is 300+ RWHP with a hybrid motor, ~250 for the first install on the 85'. Turbo Dodges get 300 HP with no problem - and the N9TE is a MUCH better motor for air flow. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted April 7, 2008 Report Share Posted April 7, 2008 What is the gutters? (Apart from the place in which you wake up after a hard night out ) Rabin, What turbo will you be using for your "hybrid engine", and where is that blog?? And what does SMEC mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 7, 2008 Report Share Posted April 7, 2008 Gutters = rain channels on the roof Apologies to Koll for the following hijack... Planned turbo will be a Garrett GT28RS unless something else comes out that's better. Heard some talk of "twin scroll" turbo's being really good too though... If the Hybrid motor ends up with 2.6L or more displacement then I might bump the turbo up to a GT30RS - but I don't want peak power as much as I want instant spool and a flat power curve... I want full boost between 2000 - 2500 RPM, or as close to that as possible... SMEC - Single Module Engine Controller - it's Dodge speak for their ECU used in 88' and 89'... BTW - turns out it doesn't use tables at all for fuel, it calculates values based on the values it receives from various sensors. Based on known information about the motor (like VE) - it then injects fuel and adjusts timing, controls boost etc. They've now hacked the ECU, and it has been modified so that the scale factors used by the ECU are changed so that you can change different parameters and still have the ECU function properly. (IE - scaling the injector data so that you can use 55 pph injectors instead of the stock 33pph ones (pph = pounds per hour)) I'll know more once I actually start playing with the software and seeing it for myself - right now I'm getting all the hardware on the engine so that I can plug the ECU into the car to see what happens. Once it fires - THEN I'll begin modding the SMEC to fit the N9TE's characteristics. I've got to add some more to the blog this week and then I'll post the address - right now I just have one article on fitting the distributor and that's it. I've got to to the throttle body, and the fuel rail modifications next and then I'll post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N9TE Posted April 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 No prob on the thread. I'm mainly concerned about two things - driveability and reliability. They take precedence over power for me. How does the "pressure sensors" measure the air flow? Got a technical link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 No prob on the thread. I'm mainly concerned about two things - driveability and reliability. They take precedence over power for me. How does the "pressure sensors" measure the air flow? Got a technical link? SMEC info This is very thorough break down of how SMEC works. (Just found it recently!) My feeling is that even though it has the potential for lots more power, it will fill the need for driveability and reliability in spades. Not only are the components readily available, they're cheap and plentyful since there were more than a few turbo dodges made in 88' and 89'! Parts are still available at the dealers - even the super 60 performance upgrade bits! ($160 for a set of 55 pph injectors NEW!) I was swayed by using the SMEC over MegaSquirt since all the mundane cold start routines and stuff that make a production ECU so hard to duplicate with a stand alone without HOURS and HOURS of tuning. From what I've read so far, and from my buddies that currently run and mod these cars, the computers are rock solid and they work really well indeed. My buddies even see really decent fuel economy on their modded engines too! For a "low cost" speed density system - I find it to be highly sofisticated and it does a damn fine job of running a motor from what I've seen and the turbo dodge cars I've driven. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Rabin, Thanks for explaining the terms! That article only says that it doesn't use tables for pulsewidths, not that it doesn't use tables at all. I'm suprised that neither VE (Volumetric Efficiency) nor engine displacement is mentioned. At least for MS, the equation looks like this (simplified): Pulsewidth = REQ_FUEL * VE * MAP * E Where REQ_FUEL is required fuel (based on injectors and engine displacement) and E is the multiplied result of all enrichments (like warm-up, barometer and air temperature correction, O2, etc). RPM is mainly used together with the MAP to get the correct VE from the VE-table. I'm wondering if that equation in the article really is accurate because I don't understand how it would work. The article was really good for the features though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Keep in mind that this is a factory ECU built for one application - so it does take into account all the parameters of that particular motor - they're just already known so there's no need to address them. This factory ECU has now been hacked to allow changes so it can be used on different motors. Since it's a hack - they've had no factory support to figure it out - they just had some REALLY smart and dedicated enthusiasts reverse engineer it to figure it out. What you read in the article applies to the Dodge guys, but is just good general info for what I'm going to be using it for. D-Cal and Chem2 are two versions of software that allow them to taylor the ECU for mods they do to the engine that increase VE - I'm taking it further and using it for a totally different motor. When I use it on the N9TE - I'll have to change those known parameters such as VE, but guys have come up with ways to make those changes, and then created ways to monitor the ECU to ensure that it isn't having to make too many corrections based on the O2 feedback... So with a little trial and error I should be able to nail the VE which will dial SMEC into the N9TE. Once I mod the engine - I'll have to redo VE as it would change yet again. As for the tables - there are some tables that are being used, but it's still calculating pulsewidth rather than looking it up. When I mentioned "it doesn't use tables at all" I meant it in reference for fuelling - not the entire ECU. (You take me so literally Johnny!) I corrected it up there so it's more clear... I forget English is a second language for many on this forum so I often take things for granted when I type it out.... So thanks for helping make it more clear! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted April 8, 2008 Report Share Posted April 8, 2008 Hehe, sorry if I'm annoying when I take you literally, it's not my intention. I guess I am a bit finicky . I don't really want to argue with you, because I belive we think in similar patterns. I just want to get things straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted April 10, 2008 Report Share Posted April 10, 2008 also, just wondering... did you refinish the lion? If so, looks great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 koll: looks fantastic man. really nice work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted April 14, 2008 Report Share Posted April 14, 2008 Your OCD has done that car well - looks fantastic! Pity about the water in the oil though. Good to hear you're going to rebuild too. I've been working on finding the necessary parts for a rebuild, but the main bearings and the rod bearings are proving to be a hard find indeed. I've been measuring up Ford 2.3 Turbo bits, and there's a possibility that the N9Te crank can be offset ground to accept the rods and bearings for the Ford bits. Combine with the bore increase to 95mm, the stroke and bore increase would make it a 2.5+L car. Stock rods for the Ford are too short - but they make a long rod version for the 2.3 as well. 2.3T guys also machine their cranks to accept 350 rods - so I'm assuming that would be a possibility for the N9TE as well. If you feel like brain storming build possibilities let me know - my plan is to rebuild it with readily available parts so the longevity of the car is ensured for a LONG time to come. BTW - also working on converting the ECU to a speed density system used in Turbo Dodges. So far the swap is turning out to be stupid EASY!! Mechanically - it's going to be cake. The only issue will be the level of integration into the car wiring wise. Rabin Ford also made a 2.0 and 2.5 versions of that engine in the Ranger: Im wondering if the rod legths are different like the 240 and 300 rods were in the old six cylinders. Ive seen some weird combos put together and work well. BTW - car is a twin of my turbo, but mine is a 20 ft away car for sure, it came from Chicago which is pretty hard on cars. Car looks nice - shame about the heads on these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 14, 2008 Report Share Posted April 14, 2008 Ford also made a 2.0 and 2.5 versions of that engine in the Ranger: Im wondering if the rod legths are different like the 240 and 300 rods were in the old six cylinders. Ive seen some weird combos put together and work well. Yep - and there's also a big aftermarket for the engine as well with tons of "long rod" combos with custom pistons for really good prices... Using chevy 350 V8 rods in the 2.3T motors also opens up a ton of possibilities... Biggest thing will be to get a GOOD engine guy that has the resources to find the parts that will work in this motor. Online resourses are OK - but won't match the experience of a good engine guy... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Hows the car Koll? Haven't heard from ya much lately, and I remember you were going to do a rebuild. One of my favorite 505s! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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