505 STX Misc Questions

[Leregulage]

After being a member of the Pug-L list for awhile now. I finally made it over here!

  Sitting outside the window is a 89 STX V6 Automatic.  After fixing, and doing many things to it. We have it running quite well.  Though she has a very high idle.

   How does one go about getting it down? The little black knob does nothing for it. Same for adjusting the "idle stop screw". Now that I think about it, I wonder if that rod is adjustable,Hmm.....

   Also most of the gauge cluster does not work. A few lights come on, but no rpm,gas,temp,etc.

Where would I even begin to look? 

I take it to check the trans fluid, it should be idling in park, or neutral-warm?  Gotta get an owners manual..

Thanks,

Adam.

 

 

[Bean]

Hi Adam,

First thing with your high idle is to figure out where it's getting it's extra air.  Making sure throttle plate is closed fully would be first step, and if it is, the high idle control circuit would be next.

I assume you fixed Karl's no start issue - curious what it was?

Rabin

[Leregulage]

Hi Rabin,

yeah that was the first thing gone over. He had told me there was no spark(and there wasn't). I went through the factory diagnostic tips. I got stuck on the last step where it said something about"check the signal".

Anyway I got to thinking about the dizzy cap. Well it was rotten to say the least. There was a spare in the back. I should mention I first swapped the ign. ecu. Though I don't think it was the issue.  After the cap change I got eratic spark. Had the timing light hooked up to the #1 wire, and noticed when I pulled on it, it was ok.  So another set of wires got it sparking.

The injectors were locked up solid, plugs were shot too.  The new injectors are from ebay-a 4 hole type.They were all balance tested, and vacuum packaged. "They know what their doing!" 

 

 I'll have a video soon..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volvo-760-780-960-Fuel-Injectors-Upgrade-Genuine-Bosch-4-Hole-Spray-/191828360381?vxp=mtr

I think the plate is fully closed...

Adam.

[Leregulage]

Had a peak out there about my gauge issues. After drooling at the Haynes wiring diagrams. "I finally understand them!" 

  Where are the ground trees on these stx's?  I know of besides the radiator.  

I switched out the mass sensor. It then started to idle down.. Might have been part of me problem...

Going with the theme of not knowing enough about it-

Are the front calipers the same on this(ABS), as another 505? Thankfully somebody years ago took pitty upon the car, and fitted a trusty master cylinder.  I wonder if the same person had a hand in the dash issue. Only two out of all the misc, stuff lights up.

Adam.

 

[Leregulage]

https://youtu.be/-T_-F6kzxi8

 

[Bean]

That's awesome Adam!

There is another grounding tree on/in the steering column area as well - that could very well be the source of a lot of your cluster issues.

Front calipers should be the same as other 505's with vented disk brakes - I've used ABS calipers on my 86' 505 Turbo front suspension. 

Rabin

 

[Leregulage]

I'll check that ground.  Say on the fuel sender wires. If I had wire #65 up at the cluster, shouldn't #65 in the trunk be the same wire? 

 

  I'm curious about this. I would think it should be the same(I use this as an example).  If so there are many things wrong... 

Those yellow relays above the fuse box. What do they go to?  Somebody has added 2 extra.. I bet it has something to do with tricking all the ABS stuff to stay off..... Also noticed wire #AC has no power(from ignition switch-to gauge cluster). The grounds are good(according to the plug terminals).  Maybe on the track of it.

Also, so I wouldn't go blind. I figured out how to blow up the wiring diagrams. So 1 book page is now 4. Have it taped to large poster board.  Helps a lot!

The little thing around the dash switches-is it an alarm light? Says un-co or something..

Adam.

[Bean]

#65 should be the same wire, but it can go through multiple connectors which is where it would have issues.

Extra relays:  Starter relay mod is likely for one of them, possibly both depending on how it was wired up.  I doubt you'd need a relay to bypass the abs stuff...  Unplugging the abs control unit is all you likely need to do.

Ungo used to be a well known car alarm company - so you likely have an old system under dash.  Or - it has a sticker and a flashing led/light to make you think it had an alarm.

Rabin

 

 

[bill]

I corrected a bunch of strange instrument cluster behavior one time by swapping out the light switch.

-Bill

[Leregulage]

I'll check that, but me thinks its much more of an issue. A new one popped up today. I have been starting it off and on(testing things). Until it finally would not fire any more. I literally shut the key off, and not 5 minutes later she won't run.

 

Cranks fine, perfect spark. So its fuel related.  I noticed one of the yellow relays above the fuse box(closest to the pass. side). was quite hot, and was activated-even when the ignition was off. Only un clicked when the batt. was un done.

Still no further with that dash...

My guess is the fuel pump, and or injection ecu stuff crapped out on me.. Time will tell I guess.

Adam.

[Leregulage]

Karl sent me a link with Ikenna's relay tips.

http://www.505turbo.com/forum/index.php?/topic/2850-just-purchased-1987-peugeot-505-stx/&do=findComment&comment=21587

Well The relay that was stuck on is the MAF one. Seems the switched 12v wire, is not switched any more. Its always on now!

I believe it is wire 20c. I take it the injection box controls this,yes?

Gonna clean the connectors.

Things aren't right in who-ville!

Adam.

[Leregulage]

Learned a few things today with it. For what ever reason once the car is cranked, the relays stick on(until batt is unhooked). Plus no power is getting to Le pompe'.

So me thinks the relays just may very well be crap, and or:

There is a nasty short-

One of the ECU's said goodnight-

Its haunted..-

Or a turbo diesel should be put in place(A low hiss can be heard from the crowd)...

They say 12v/25a, only replacements I've found are 30amp. Should be just fine though.

Adam.

 

 

[Bean]

I'd guess it was the relay itself or the wiring.  Relay signal wire could be shorted or being back fed 12V.

Simple check would be to make sure the relay signal wire is switching 12V properly - if the relay signal wire stays hot - trace it back and resolve.

Rabin

[Leregulage]

Yeah that was my idea as well. Either way new relays are on the way.  I found a Francais pinout of the injection box(very detailed). I've noticed the "factory" wiring diagrams-from the Haynes book, left a lot of things out... Of course it is for a 4cly too.  

Checked everything over on the gauge pack. Still no luck. I suppose all the gauges could have issues, and non are related-but I doubt it. 

Thankfully I just found the rest of those French wiring manuals.  

Now it begins..

 

Adam.

[Leregulage]

Found the right wiring diagrams yesterday, so I started a-new. For what ever reason I had a thought to open up the fuse box. Wonder what I found?

At the fire wall one of the looms is half way chewed through too!  I hate to say this but, "The dash may have to come out" 

Found some broke fuel gauge connectors too. 

A turbo diesel is looking better, and better...

Adam.

 

[Leregulage]

Just got done fixing those wires. Really only 3 were chewed through. Now the Windshield washer works. So thats something I guess.

 Still not running- no spark again... The new relays haven't fixed anything so far. Noticed with the key off, the coil has 12v+.

 

"That ain't right!"

Anyone reading this have a turbo diesel engine for a 505?  Might take away from the whole point of an STX. At least it could stay running!.

Adam.

 

 

[Leregulage]

Regrouped, and went wire by wire for the injection, and ignition ecu's.  Used the pin-outs as my guide. All of those wires are ok. I thought I fried most everything(was just a diode).

 

  Anyway after plugging back in the fuse panel, now my door chime , and variable steering pump is on. 

The 3 main relays are off, until the key is cranked. Then they stay on(all of them!) with the key off, until batt. is un-hooked.

So I think it could be one of the following-

Fuse panel

A brake in a wire somewhere

Injection ecu

Ignition ecu

Anyone fancy a guess? 

[Bean]

I'd guess there was more wiring damage yet to be discovered. 

Ideally you need to pick something not working, or working incorrectly, and then trace the circuit looking for damage.

Case in point - find the wire keeping the relays energized and then trace ot back - I'll bet you find a short.

Rabin

[Leregulage]

Oh I'm sure there is more!

Its the whole thing of-

the relays get powered when cranking, then stay powered until no batt.  The MAF is grounded when this is happening. 

I checked all of the wires in between the ecus.  With everything hooked up(fuse panel). There is  12v -when the switch is off(switch tests good). So it is back feeding somewhere on the always hot wire.

In any other car, I would look at the wiring diagram further. Though for this it is more of educated guesses what wire does what. 

Adam.

[Bean]

Relays are all new and correct replacements?   (Ruling out a sticking relay.)  

Getting power, and they staying powered means the relay signal wire is shorting to power only when the start circuit is engaged.  You mentioned other relays that were added as well did you trace the function of those?

Rabin

[Leregulage]

Rabin, I think you are a member of the Pug L list right?  

If not, then yes the relays are the right ones.

Got the dash off today. Looks like the alarm button was just that, a button. Nothing else with it.

 

I found a few more wires(only controlled the gauges). 

 

After some fiddling about with numerous jumper wires. I had spark and the fuel pumps running. No put put though. So that means the injection ecu is not getting power.

 

The door buzzer randomly came on and off.

 

I think I may have found the issue though for the randomness of things. Of course the mouse nibbles don't help. There are many wires broken, in the wire loom. Right where they are curled, or pulled to tight. In other words the majority of what goes to the relays, and fuse box is having issues.  The connectors seem just fine.

 

  Now I could say F-it, and wire the engine relays,ecus & stuff by hand, and I bet it would work fine. Till something else goes to crap.

 

  Got some real thinking to do.. Its way too nice to part out. Yet I don't feel like having it strand me in some remote location.

 

 Fix each circuit one by one?

 

All joking aside- anybody that has something French, and Automatic. Drop me a line if the STX tickles your fancy.  

 

Thanks for the help,

 

Adam.

[Leregulage]

Still playing around with it out there.  The injectors aren't getting any power. On the injection ecu side.

 

Thankfully they didn't fry with all of the issues. Powered just one by hand and the car sputtered fine. 

 

   I'm leaning heavily towards the injection ecu has crapped out.  

 

Anybody have a fairly priced spare?

 

Would love to get it running-for a proof of concept really. Don't know if it could be trusted to stay running..

 

 Either way- it is for sale.

 

It's quite a neat car, but plagued with electrical issues. Has a wee bit of rust at the bottom of the windshield-thats it. Clear Virginia title.

 

Has around 138K miles.  Ran very well a few weeks ago. Had the ABS unit swapped out for the standard booster unit. The front rotors are in very good shape.

 

Comes with numerous other parts.  A new set of modern 4 hole injectors are on it.

 

Its in Virginia 22644.

 

Feel free to make a reasonable offer if interested. I enjoy other French things, and odd cars as well. 

 

Would really like a diesel of some sorts. Had enough of electrical shorts for a while now....

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Adam.

[Bean]

Price and pictures posted in the sales section would help your cause...

As for the issues, the fact it ran makes me doubt you fried the ECU in the time you owned it.  Ikenna's experience shows that they're very robust units so I'm still thinking it's relay / relay wiring related.

Rabin

 

[Leregulage]

Your probably quite right.  On the MAF relay it gets grounded by the ECU. So it is getting power(infact all the relays are working perfectly). Anyway it gets its ground , but keeps it when the key is turned off. Until the batt is unhooked.

 

I'm kinda at a loss as for what to check next. If its not the ecu, then it must be something in that harness. Or possibly the fuse panel is really flaky. 

 

Everything else on the car is randomly flaky as well.   

 

Hate to get rid of a car because of my ignorance of it. I'm waiting for that light bulb moment.....

 

Adam.

[andrethx]

hi adam, i missed this thread being updated recently or i would have chimed in sooner...

was the car sitting for a while? you could have crap in the gas tank that is now preventing the car from starting...water, dirt, etc. might be worth looking into. could explain why the car started for a while, and now won't.

as for the fake alarm light on the dash -- back in the late 70s/early 80s, the best/most expensive aftermarket alarm in the US was the UNGO box (un-go, as in stop, get it? i am very old, is why i remember this....); despite the cheesy name, it was well-made and well-regarded by enthusiasts...back then, almost no cars had any kind of factory anti-theft system. so your car either had an UNGO system at some point in the past, or a previous owner wanted to make people think that it did. IIRC the clifford aftermarket alarm unseated the UNGO as the "best," then factory anti-theft systems improved to the point where aftermarket alarms were no longer must-have items for enthusiasts and/or people with nice cars.

also -- it doesn't sound like you need a new ECU. but -- i seem to remember, someone on this forum (fernando? arun maybe?) put a european v6 ecu on a US-spec v6 and the engine ran a bit peppier....it wasn't expensive and it might be a tiny bit easier to find than a US-spec v6 ecu if you are replacing it....

andré