WilsonRylan Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 OK guys, for the past couple weeks its been getting harder and harder to shift gears. Yesterday i slowed down to turn out of my neighborhood when i pushed the clutch pedal in it went down about 2 inches and then got really hard and i couldnt shift into any gears, If i push the clutch pedal down and try to shift into first the car will start moving but really slowly. Does anyone know if my clutch is mechanical or hydraulic in my 85 505 turbo. any help is much appreciated. OH i almost forgot got my intercooler all mounted up in the front just gotta plumb it! Rylan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Clutch is hydraulic. I'll need you to clarify some things: Does the clutch pedal go to the floor - or is it getting really hard 2" down and NOT going to the floor? If it's not going to the floor don't force it. What is the brake fluid level like? If the clutch goes to the floor OK and doesn't feel super light - What happens if you start the car in 1st gear with the clutch pedal down to the floor? If it takes off then the clutch isn't being disengaged. What does your shifter feel like - did it get really sloppy or is it pretty tight? Need more answers, and be very specific on if the shifter is getting into gear and what the pedal is doing exactly. (IE: "Trying to shift into first" doesn't tell me enough - need to know if the gear shift is in first or not, where the clutch pedal is, what it feels like, and then what the car is doing with each step.) Could be as simple as a collapsed hydraulic clutch line from the sounds of it. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilsonRylan Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 OK the brake fluid is full, the pedal does go all the way to the floor but is really hard to push it that far, the shifter is sloppy in gears. I started it with it in first and the car lurched foreward, then started it again with it in 1st and clutch depressed down and it still lurched forward. But know with the shifter in neutral, i tryed to push the clutch in an i cant get into any gears. also its making a really loud squeeling sound when the clutch pedal isnt pushed in, when you push the pedal in it stops, let it out and it starts squeeling again, the clutch pedal goes down easy for about 2 in then just gets really hard to push it in the rest of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilsonRylan Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 OK so now the squeeling stopped and when you push the clutch pedal now it goes down to the floor with no resistence until about a 1/2 in that bottom it gets a little harder but i cant shift into gear even with it depress all the way down, when the car is off though i cant shift in and out of gears fairly easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 The squealing is disconcerting - likely means the throw out bearing isn't in good shape. If brake fluid is full there aren't any leaks, so it will either be the hose between the clutch master and the slave, or there's something mechanically wrong with the clutch assembly. My 504 did something similar but the clutch pedal felt fine. I ended up replacing the entire hydraulic system including the hose and it was still FUBAR'd - I have a new clutch and pressure plate to go in this spring now - it's the only other possibility. Actually - I rallycrossed without a clutch, and ended up breaking the tranny housing because the torque tube bolts had worked loose. Beat quite a few cars in my old 504 clutchless shifting and starting in 1st gear. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulaweb Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Over the years every time I've had the clutch fail to disengage when the peddle was depressed it was the clutch slave cylinder that had failed. Some of those other symptoms like the squealing have to be something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Could be a buggered slave, but anytime I've seen them fail they've always leaked and drained the brake reservoir down to the clutch output nipple... Best bet will be to get under the car and have some one push on the pedal so you can see what's happening. Check the rubber hose on the line between the clutch slave and the master, hopefully that's the issue - but like Dave mentioned - it wouldn't explain the squealing. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Maybe I should explain what you should see... When your helper pushes the clutch pedal down, the pedal actuates a rod that pushes a piston into the clutch master, this creates hydraulic pressure and flow to the clutch slave bolted to the side of the transmission. That hydraulic fluid then acts on a piston inside the slave moving it out. This piston pushes on a rod that actuates the clutch fork, and this fork is what pushes on the pressure plate (through a release bearing) to disengage the clutch disk from the flyweel. So look for any leaks, look for the rubber section in the line between the clutch master and the slave expanding under pressure, and look for the fork to move a good 1.5" at the slave. If you can shine a light along the shift fork - make sure it's not cracked and bending at the pivot inside the bellhousing. If everything checks out you likely have a mechanical issue in the clutch assembly and you'll be looking at a cluch job. Not sure what kind of connections you have, but it's a pretty big job. Not hard really - but you either need to drop the transmission out, or pull the engine. Rabin Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilsonRylan Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 yea i had my dad push on the clutch pedal while i was underneath the the rod that operates the clutch fork is moving out and back in, so i guess im gonna have to take the bell housing apart then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Were you able to shine a light into the bellhousing along the clutch fork to make sure it wasn't bending? They're known to crack and flex - but it's never happened to any of my cars. How much was the clutch fork moving? If all is OK, then yes, you'll need to split the engine and tranny and likely replace the clutch, pressure plate, release bearing, and the bearing in the crank. Hopefully it's something you can tackle yourselves, or you have a good indy mechanic that can do it. Rabin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilsonRylan Posted January 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Yea it doesnt look like its bendning and i cant see any cracksthe clutch fork was moving about 1 1/2'', on that note i can tack it all about, itll be tough though since i dont have a lift or a pit to work with, just car ramps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Floor jack and some proper jack stands? Or even borrow from someone? (used ramps on one end and stands on the other) I've done clutches before like this, it's very doable, but not very fun. Basically need to get the car up high as you can. Undo the torque tube bolts at the transmission (8mm hex bolts), then undo the diff mounting bolts (2) and then slide the diff back (with the torque tube still attached) as far as it can go. Once its separated from the tranny, you need to reach inside with some channel locks to slide the the drive shaft inside slides off the transmission output shaft. Once that's removed you can unbolt the tranny and drop it out. I use a ratchet strap around it and through the shift hole to a 2x4 or something to hold it, and then lower it using that once it's loose. Once the tranny is out, you'll have access to the clutch and pressure plate, release bearing is on the shift fork. With all the parts I could do this in a day in my garage, but I have all the tools and the experience. If you decide to tackle the job I'll do my best to detail the tools needed, and process a bit better so that you can save your car. Pity to have to junk / sell the car over a clutch - especially if it's running nice and in good shape. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilsonRylan Posted January 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 thanks alot Rabin, im gonna start on it today, to get it apart that way i can at leaset look inside to see whats goin on. yea im definetly not goin to junk the car over a clutch, it runs too good and i almost got my intercooler plumbed up. any help is greatlly appreciated my friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulaweb Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 I think you need to drop the rear end and pull it back in order to separate the trans from the engine, unless you want to pull the engine. My experience is with an XD3T engine with the BA10-5 Trans but I think it's the same for yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 I think you need to drop the rear end and pull it back in order to separate the trans from the engine, unless you want to pull the engine. My experience is with an XD3T engine with the BA10-5 Trans but I think it's the same for yours. The diff doesn't actually "drop" per se, since the torque tube stays attached, it rests on the suspension cross member and doesn't actually come down. Takes a little work, but it will go back far enough to remove the transmission. Used the right size hex / Allen heads on the bolts (3/8 drive socket Allen wrenches) - , and don't round them off. I'd recommend PB Blasting the diff mount bolts for sure. Pretty sure you'll need 8mm and 10mm male hex sockets for the torque tube bolts to the tranny (8mm) and either 8 or 10mm for the diff bolts. You'll also need to take the interior center console out, and remove the metal cover around the shifter. There are little wire clips that hold the shift rods on the balls on the shift levers on the tranny, so look for and remove them before popping them off. If you have any trouble try to post pics and really detailed explanations of what's going on, and I'll do my best to help out. If something doesn't make sense now - just ask and I'll explain in further detail. Good luck! Rabin T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilsonRylan Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Ok ive unbolted and disconected everything possible, the drive shaft the bell housing but i the tranny doesnt want to seem to pull away from the engine, am i missing something its like its stuck, i cant seem to drop it out, any suggestions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 I've had transmissions that were super stuck onto the dowel pins that locate the bellousing on the engine block. Try smacking the bellhousing with a dead blow hammer, or using a hammer and a block of wood to see if you can tap it enough to break the bond, while someone else wiggles the tail housing as hard as they can. Just make sure you have something secured to the tranny so it doesn't fall right out. Chunk of wood across the shifter hole and a strap around the tranny is a good start. If the clutch hydraulics are still there and hooked up, I've also used the clutch to separate the two since the bolts are undone when you push the clutch in - it pops the tranny off. Last resort: I've also pounded a wood chisel in between the block and bellhousing close to where the dowel pins are (by the bolt holes) and that has successfully broken them apart. Just double and triple check that every bolt has been removed from the bellhousing as I've seen decent damage done when they forgot a bolt because it was covered in gunk. I assume the starter is out right? Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilsonRylan Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Ive got the transmission all unbolted and its pulled away from the block about an inch but it just wont go any farther, i did take out the bolt to the starter that goes into the bell housing but not the other bolt to take the starter completly out, if the starter isnt out could that hang up the transmission from coming out completly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Make sure the weight of the transmission isn't hanging onto the motor still. It needs to be slid straight back and away from the engine. Since you had clutch issues, the disk might be stuck onto the splines, so with a jack under the transmission and set up to take the weight and roll back, I'd use long pry bars on either side of the bellhousing to rock it back and forth until it comes off. If it's off an inch, then the only thing that could be holding it is the main shaft. Dowells will be clear, and the end of the main shaft should be out of the bearing in the crank. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilsonRylan Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 dude this thing will not come out, i cant understand why ive rocked it back and forth put a jack undo it ive even used ratchet straps to try to pull it apart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Try levers in between the block and bellhousing and pry back and forth with the tranny supported. Levers / pry bars will exert way more force than ratchet straps. Make sure to use the longest levers you can fit in there too. Did you remove the bracket on the underside of the engine as well - u shaped aluminum bit? You should be able to rotate the engine with the crank pulley too, see if that helps shake it loose. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick@nite Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 It sounds like the Pressure plate to me, or the throwout bearing.I used this Spec clutch, it's great! Make a offer if you want to go that route, I got mine much cheaper than $305http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spec-Stage-2-Performance-Clutch-Kit-85-91-Peugeot-505-Gas-2-2L-Turbo-N9TE-SG032-/150980342450?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23272132b2&vxp=mtr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peugeottogo Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Is there sufficient space in the opening between the bell housing and the engine to remove the pressure plate bolts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 You may have to pull that engine forward, to forcefully separate the two, i think. Ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 If there's only an inch separation he likely barely sees the starter ring gear, so I'd say no to getting at the PP bolts. As for separating them, the strongest force you can generate to separate them will be with pry bars in between the tranny and the engine. You may need 3 guys, one to use the starter to turn the motor over, while the other two or on either side of the engine with long pry bars that alternate prying to try and walk the tranny out and off. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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