Ikenna Posted March 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Nick answered this in another of your posts: http://www.505turbo.com/forum/index.php?s=...ost&p=12548 Yes,he did. But he didnt specify if its mm or what. The filler guage i have starts from 0.05 - 1.00mm. So I wasnt sure he meant by .24. The XN1 owners manual stated this= Electrode gap: 0.60 mm (0.024''). I do not understand what .024 means. Rabin, if throttle switch adjustment is tampered with, what would be likely symptoms? I asked this because since they tampered with the throttle plate adjustment, I strongly believe the throttle switch adjustment was also tampered with to stop the hunting. I could tell this because the engine is still high after re-adjusting the throttle plate opening, which actually was the cause of the hunting all this while. The engine no longer hunts since after the readjustment. But its still a little bit high and the knob on the throttle unit isnt the cause, cos i turned it in completly(closed the bypass), yet the sound wasnt still a little bit high. If the throttle switch of that engine is adjustable, i would like to mark the present position, then adjust it a little bit to see if any change. If no change, i will return it to original position i found it. The black smoke has reduced. And since over two weeks i reduced the overfilled engine oil in the sump, i have been checking to see if it would exceed again the normal guage, but it hasnt done so. So am begining to believe that fuel no longer washes down cylinders and dilutes oil in the crankcase/sump. I intend to drain and refill with less expensive engine oil and observe it to confirm. I may not even bother to replace the oil filter since the refilling is temporal. Hey, I tried to pull out the oil filler cap but it wouldnt come out. Please, how is it opened? Also I tried to pull out rotor in the distributor, but it wouldnt come out also. It was as if it was bolted to it. I need to inspect/check the rotor.How can i bring it out? Ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhayj505 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Yes,he did. But he didnt specify if its mm or what. The filler guage i have starts from 0.05 - 1.00mm. So I wasnt sure he meant by .24. The XN1 owners manual stated this= Electrode gap: 0.60 mm (0.024''). I do not understand what .024 means. Rabin, if throttle switch adjustment is tampered with, what would be likely symptoms? I asked this because since they tampered with the throttle plate adjustment, I strongly believe the throttle switch adjustment was also tampered with to stop the hunting. I could tell this because the engine is still high after re-adjusting the throttle plate opening, which actually was the cause of the hunting all this while. The engine no longer hunts since after the readjustment. But its still a little bit high and the knob on the throttle unit isnt the cause, cos i turned it in completly(closed the bypass), yet the sound wasnt still a little bit high. If the throttle switch of that engine is adjustable, i would like to mark the present position, then adjust it a little bit to see if any change. If no change, i will return it to original position i found it. The black smoke has reduced. And since over two weeks i reduced the overfilled engine oil in the sump, i have been checking to see if it would exceed again the normal guage, but it hasnt done so. So am begining to believe that fuel no longer washes down cylinders and dilutes oil in the crankcase/sump. I intend to drain and refill with less expensive engine oil and observe it to confirm. I may not even bother to replace the oil filter since the refilling is temporal. Hey, I tried to pull out the oil filler cap but it wouldnt come out. Please, how is it opened? Also I tried to pull out rotor in the distributor, but it wouldnt come out also. It was as if it was bolted to it. I need to inspect/check the rotor.How can i bring it out? Ikenna. its easy to adjust throttle switch all u need is a test light loosen the allen screws to tps there should be two of them car doesn't have to be running just make sure ignition switch open to get power there.find a good ground preferably battery - than put test light lead to the signal i believe light should be off at idle i really don't remember than as soon as u hit a lil bit of throttle it should come on or other way around.the oil filler cap should simply just pulloff use some wd40 to moisten seal see if that helps.rotor has three allen screws holding it in place after they are removed it should pull off also. the spark plug gap is in inches not mm im pretty sure nick has the right gap.i run denso iridium plugs which aren't gappable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 Today, in the morning, I started with the TPS. I checked the ZN3J ignition/Injection book and read that to test the TPS, i have to do that at the ECU end. I wasnt ready to go that ECU again. If I keep doing that, I might create a problem on the ECU that might require its replacement which would be dificult to get here, being V6. So, I googled it and decided to go with the test method done by others in their various cars. I set the multimeter to 20v (DC). I probed the middle wire connector on the throttle switch with the red lead of the meter and probed the top connector on the switch with the black meter lead & switched on the ignition. I got 5.6v on the meter at idle. I did the WOP (opened the throttle fully) and it was still reading 5.6v. It was supposed to read 0.45v at idle & read 4.60v or 4.80v at WOP. Anyway, since i wouldnt know if the wires or connections were different from other autos, I adjusted with various reading, but i didnt get the result I was looking for. At a point, the car idle sound came down to normal and the black smoke was gone, but it would misfire, hesitate and stall sometimes when triying to accelerate. So, i returned it to the original settings i met it, 5.6v, and the acceleration became ok. No misfiring,hesitation, hunting and stalling, but would still emit black smoke, only on heavy/hard acceleration like it was doing before. In the afternoon, I pulled out the spark plugs, cleaned and gapped them to 0.60 mm (0.024"), as recommended by XN1 manual, Nick and Horhay. I put them back, started the car and didnt see any difference. Like i have always said, the engine dosent idle roughly. It idles and revvs smoothly, except starting the car for the first time in morning time, when engine is still cold. It would start and stall like 2 or 3 times. Misfire once or twice when trying to accelerate, hesitates and stalls when trying to move. But as soon as it moves and runs for 3 mins or 4, the whole problem goes away, except the black smoke under acceleration. The black smoke dosent come out from the exhaust any longer at idle. In the evening, I opened and cleaned the throttle body (the throttle plate side) with carb cleaner again, to remove the carbon build up i saw there, which must have been as a result of bad engine oil diluted by fuel. I closed it after the cleaning & checked for any possible vacuum leak around it, which i didnt find, before i started the car. Well, if there was an improvement, I didnt notice cos the hunting had stopped long time ago after adjusting the throttle stop and throttle plate then. The observation i made toady was that each time i switched on the A/C, the engine idle speed normalized and the black smoke stopped. It sounds weird but thats the truth. I thought the reverse should be the case, but what can I say. I can barely see any black smoke from the exhaust when the AC is on, even under or hard acceleration, though, very little can actually be seen which i dont know if its the normal once in a while smoke from car exhaust under heavy accleration. With this, I have made up my mind to start using the car henceforth, since the excessive fuel can be managed. This car been parked because of the excessive fuel thing since it arrived last month. I only drove it few times when there were urgent need for me to quickly dash somehwere and comeback, which i can count number of times the car had been on the road or i have driven it. So that means the AC must always be on. Am ok with that. Afterall, who wants the windows to be opened in the first place. The v6 engine has enough horsepower to carry the load of AC wihout affecting it performance. Its better to burn extra fuel to use AC than to waste more of the fuel from the exhaust and worst still, washing down cylinders and diluting engine oil. So, tomorrow, i have decided to buy engine oil, drain ad refill it without changing the oil filter for now untill i have finshed my observation and finally fix the excessive fuel problem, maybe for another 1 month or there about. Since i have already bought coolant, I will as well drain the water in the cooling system and refill with coolant only, the same tomorrow, if possible. I also would like to buy another ignition coil with higher secondary winding readings and switch it with the one in the car. If it improves the performance, i will leave it there, if i do not see any change, i will reomve it and keep as spare in the car incase i need it someday on highway, since i will be travelling a lot with the car in future, which was the main reason I bought it( being a long distance vehicle, not a city car). One more thing, am begining to think that the engine oil has not been changed for a long time since the oil filler cap is stuck there, wouldnt turn or make any move while trying to pull it out. The mechanic in Lagos that drove it to my place when it first arrived asked me to send him money then to drain, refill the oil and changed the oil filter. It now means that he didnt do any of those things after sending him the money, otherwise its about 4 weeks ago, the cap should be free if it was pulled out then. Dishonesty! I hate it wih passion! Anyway, this means that the fuel accumulation in the sump must have started long time ago with previous owner, before he/she sold it. I blieve the excessive fuel thing could be the reason he got rid of it. Hmm! It could be a blessing in disguise for me afterall! Ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhayj505 Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 Today, in the morning, I started with the TPS. I checked the ZN3J ignition/Injection book and read that to test the TPS, i have to do that at the ECU end. I wasnt ready to go that ECU again. If I keep doing that, I might create a problem on the ECU that might require its replacement which would be dificult to get here, being V6. So, I googled it and decided to go with the test method done by others in their various cars. I set the multimeter to 20v (DC). I probed the middle wire connector on the throttle switch with the red lead of the meter and probed the top connector on the switch with the black meter lead & switched on the ignition. I got 5.6v on the meter at idle. I did the WOP (opened the throttle fully) and it was still reading 5.6v. It was supposed to read 0.45v at idle & read 4.60v or 4.80v at WOP. Anyway, since i wouldnt know if the wires or connections were different from other autos, I adjusted with various reading, but i didnt get the result I was looking for. At a point, the car idle sound came down to normal and the black smoke was gone, but it would misfire, hesitate and stall sometimes when triying to accelerate. So, i returned it to the original settings i met it, 5.6v, and the acceleration became ok. No misfiring,hesitation, hunting and stalling, but would still emit black smoke, only on heavy/hard acceleration like it was doing before. In the afternoon, I pulled out the spark plugs, cleaned and gapped them to 0.60 mm (0.024"), as recommended by XN1 manual, Nick and Horhay. I put them back, started the car and didnt see any difference. Like i have always said, the engine dosent idle roughly. It idles and revvs smoothly, except starting the car for the first time in morning time, when engine is still cold. It would start and stall like 2 or 3 times. Misfire once or twice when trying to accelerate, hesitates and stalls when trying to move. But as soon as it moves and runs for 3 mins or 4, the whole problem goes away, except the black smoke under acceleration. The black smoke dosent come out from the exhaust any longer at idle. In the evening, I opened and cleaned the throttle body (the throttle plate side) with carb cleaner again, to remove the carbon build up i saw there, which must have been as a result of bad engine oil diluted by fuel. I closed it after the cleaning & checked for any possible vacuum leak around it, which i didnt find, before i started the car. Well, if there was an improvement, I didnt notice cos the hunting had stopped long time ago after adjusting the throttle stop and throttle plate then. The observation i made toady was that each time i switched on the A/C, the engine idle speed normalized and the black smoke stopped. It sounds weird but thats the truth. I thought the reverse should be the case, but what can I say. I can barely see any black smoke from the exhaust when the AC is on, even under or hard acceleration, though, very little can actually be seen which i dont know if its the normal once in a while smoke from car exhaust under heavy accleration. With this, I have made up my mind to start using the car henceforth, since the excessive fuel can be managed. This car been parked because of the excessive fuel thing since it arrived last month. I only drove it few times when there were urgent need for me to quickly dash somehwere and comeback, which i can count number of times the car had been on the road or i have driven it. So that means the AC must always be on. Am ok with that. Afterall, who wants the windows to be opened in the first place. The v6 engine has enough horsepower to carry the load of AC wihout affecting it performance. Its better to burn extra fuel to use AC than to waste more of the fuel from the exhaust and worst still, washing down cylinders and diluting engine oil. So, tomorrow, i have decided to buy engine oil, drain ad refill it without changing the oil filter for now untill i have finshed my observation and finally fix the excessive fuel problem, maybe for another 1 month or there about. Since i have already bought coolant, I will as well drain the water in the cooling system and refill with coolant only, the same tomorrow, if possible. I also would like to buy another ignition coil with higher secondary winding readings and switch it with the one in the car. If it improves the performance, i will leave it there, if i do not see any change, i will reomve it and keep as spare in the car incase i need it someday on highway, since i will be travelling a lot with the car in future, which was the main reason I bought it( being a long distance vehicle, not a city car). One more thing, am begining to think that the engine oil has not been changed for a long time since the oil filler cap is stuck there, wouldnt turn or make any move while trying to pull it out. The mechanic in Lagos that drove it to my place when it first arrived asked me to send him money then to drain, refill the oil and changed the oil filter. It now means that he didnt do any of those things after sending him the money, otherwise its about 4 weeks ago, the cap should be free if it was pulled out then. Dishonesty! I hate it wih passion! Anyway, this means that the fuel accumulation in the sump must have started long time ago with previous owner, before he/she sold it. I blieve the excessive fuel thing could be the reason he got rid of it. Hmm! It could be a blessing in disguise for me afterall! Ikenna. morning ikenna u had the tps adjusted right it should be full voltage as soon as throttle gets off idle position. Trying putting back and messing with the black plastic adjustment screw on top of the intake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 morning ikenna u had the tps adjusted right it should be full voltage as soon as throttle gets off idle position. Trying putting back and messing with the black plastic adjustment screw on top of the intake Like i posted earlier, the TPS reading i got were: 5.6v at closed throttle plate & the same 5.6v at throttle fully opened. Then I adjusted it and got 0.00 at closed throttle plate & about 4.65 at (WOP) wide open throttle plate. In the later readings, the idle speed returned to normal but would misfire and stall sometimes when trying to accelerate. So i returned the TPS to the original settings i met it (5.6v both closed & WOP throttle) & the idle speed became a liittle bit high but without misfiring and stalling, but would surge and stall when the engine is cold. Ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 H George & Horhay, I tested my TPS today with multimeter. I set the multimeter to 20volts (DC). With wiring connectors attached to the TPS, I probed the red lead of the multimeter on each of the three wire connectors on the TPS and after the other and place the black lead of the multimeter on the the Battery negative terminal. Then i swicthed on the ignition. The readings i got from the tests are below: Top wire (blue colour): at idle (throttle plate closed)= 5.10 volts at WOT (wide open throttle)= 5.10 volts Middle wire(Green with yellow stripe): at idle= 0.02 volts at WOT= 0.51 volts Bottom wire (Green color) : idle=1.06 volts WOT= 0.90 volts So please, George and Horhay, help me test yours to know the factory readings of the TPS so that i can adjust mine, if its out of adjustment or need replacement. Hi All, I have succeded in fixing the black smoke thing. The culprit was the fuel tank. I noticed that the return line was not free on the tank. So loosened the nut that hold the tank and the black smoke stopped. Hmm! It was a big relief. The remaining problem is the stalling at deacceleration and the high idle speed. I tried to reduced the idlle speed, but the engine would stall as i accelerate and release the pedal, most especially when the AC is on. Like i mentioned ealier, the engine hesitates and stalls when cold. I had replaced IAC valve (2nd hand) yet the problem persisted. So the only thing that give that type of smyptoms, apart from IAC valve, is TPS. So i would like to know if the readings i got from the TPS on the car is the factory settings or it would need to be adjusted or whatever. Ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhayj505 Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 H George & Horhay, I tested my TPS today with multimeter. I set the multimeter to 20volts (DC). With wiring connectors attached to the TPS, I probed the red lead of the multimeter on each of the three wire connectors on the TPS and after the other and place the black lead of the multimeter on the the Battery negative terminal. Then i swicthed on the ignition. The readings i got from the tests are below: Top wire (blue colour): at idle (throttle plate closed)= 5.10 volts at WOT (wide open throttle)= 5.10 volts Middle wire(Green with yellow stripe): at idle= 0.02 volts at WOT= 0.51 volts Bottom wire (Green color) : idle=1.06 volts WOT= 0.90 volts So please, George and Horhay, help me test yours to know the factory readings of the TPS so that i can adjust mine, if its out of adjustment or need replacement. Hi All, I have succeded in fixing the black smoke thing. The culprit was the fuel tank. I noticed that the return line was not free on the tank. So loosened the nut that hold the tank and the black smoke stopped. Hmm! It was a big relief. The remaining problem is the stalling at deacceleration and the high idle speed. I tried to reduced the idlle speed, but the engine would stall as i accelerate and release the pedal, most especially when the AC is on. Like i mentioned ealier, the engine hesitates and stalls when cold. I had replaced IAC valve (2nd hand) yet the problem persisted. So the only thing that give that type of smyptoms, apart from IAC valve, is TPS. So i would like to know if the readings i got from the TPS on the car is the factory settings or it would need to be adjusted or whatever. Ikenna. morning ikenna glad u got the excessive fuel problem out of the way. now about the tps on our cars it really isn't a potentiometer type deal like the tps on newer cars where the voltage varies as throttle plate moves its just a sort of on off switch so u should have 0volts at idle and as soon as throttle moves from idle position it should be full signal voltage regardless if at wop or not its just a switch all it does is let the computer know the car is not idling so it can compensate to adjust timing and so on. closed throttle (idle)=0VOLTS partial throttle or anything before and including wop=full signal voltage (should be around 5volts) hope this helps -horhay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 morning ikenna glad u got the excessive fuel problem out of the way. now about the tps on our cars it really isn't a potentiometer type deal like the tps on newer cars where the voltage varies as throttle plate moves its just a sort of on off switch so u should have 0volts at idle and as soon as throttle moves from idle position it should be full signal voltage regardless if at wop or not its just a switch all it does is let the computer know the car is not idling so it can compensate to adjust timing and so on. closed throttle (idle)=0VOLTS partial throttle or anything before and including wop=full signal voltage (should be around 5volts) hope this helps -horhay Yes Horhay, it would help if I know which connector on the TPS to test( which of the three connectos should the multimeter red lead be probed in and where to place the black lead of the multimeter. from the readings you gave above, mine appeared to be out of adjustment. i just want to know which of the connectors do i have test to get that reading (the top, middle or bottom wire connectors). Or should i probe the red lead on the TPS middle wire connector and probe the top wire connector ithe black lead of the multimeter, as suggested and showned on some sites i googled? Because i tried this method before and got something like 0.00v at idle and 5.6 v at WOP, but wasnt sure if that was the factory settings, so i returned it to 5.6v at idle and the same 5.6v at WOT, whcih was the original setting imet. ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhayj505 Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Yes Horhay, it would help if I know which connector on the TPS to test( which of the three connectos should the multimeter red lead be probed in and where to place the black lead of the multimeter. from the readings you gave above, mine appeared to be out of adjustment. i just want to know which of the connectors do i have test to get that reading (the top, middle or bottom wire connectors). Or should i probe the red lead on the TPS middle wire connector and probe the top wire connector ithe black lead of the multimeter, as suggested and showned on some sites i googled? Because i tried this method before and got something like 0.00v at idle and 5.6 v at WOP, but wasnt sure if that was the factory settings, so i returned it to 5.6v at idle and the same 5.6v at WOT, whcih was the original setting imet. ikenna. u had it right ikenna it should be 0volts at idle and 5-6volts off idle and wop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 u had it right ikenna it should be 0volts at idle and 5-6volts off idle and wop Ok. I will reset it to that readings and see what happens. Thanks. Ikenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhayj505 Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Ok. I will reset it to that readings and see what happens. Thanks. Ikenna if u have further problems with the idle try and adjust idle air control.screw the one on top of throttle body. did u ever try switching the coil leads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 if u have further problems with the idle try and adjust idle air control.screw the one on top of throttle body. did u ever try switching the coil leads? I adjusted the TPS to 0.00v adle and 5.6v at WOT like you suggested. The engine idle speed came down/lowered to normal idle sound/speed, but the engine would misfire and hesitate at acceleration, i.e serious loss of compression. Adjusting the idle air control screw didnt help at all. I tried to readjust the throttle stop screw which raised the engine idle speed again and started hunting. About the coil leads, i havent not swicthed them. Why i havent done that is because i tested the lead on the +terminal of the coil(the terminal with + sign) off the coil with ignition on and it had battery positive feed while the lead on the - terminal of the coil had nothing. I did the test with test bulb. Unless the lead with battery feed should be on the -terminal of the coil, then i can try it. Infact, i will switch the leads as soon as i wake up this morning to see if any difference. Its 2.10am now here in Nigeria. I just dont know why the engine would lack compression at low/normal idle speed(hesistate and misfire at acceleration). What do you think? Ikennal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Its been over a week since I have been using the car. I drained and refilled the diluted engine oil. Also replaced the oil filter. I also drained water in the cooling system and refilled with coolant only. I noticed a leak around the FPR and had the FPR replaced. I noticed the idle speed had been high all the while. I acted on the throttle stop screw and the sound lowered, but it started to loose power, misfire and stall at decelleration. So i returned it to the previous setting, which i knew wasnt normal. I tried to adjust the TPS but it wouldnt work since the idle speed was too high, so let it go. I started driving it like that. Three days ago, the car overheated while returning from work. Maybe there was airlock in the cooling system after draining and refilling with coolant. The coolant reservoir/expansion bottle is absent in the engine bay. The hose that should lead to the bootle was cut off and blocked with a bolt. So i fliled up the system via the bleed screw opening with syringe, thinking that it would remove all the air and filled up with coolant. When the car overheated (the needle a little over the cental zone on the instrument cluster) and stalled the engine, i opened the bonnet and saw the radiator upper hose expanded. After, it cooled off, a day after, i opened the bleed screw and air gushed out. I dont think Vicous Fan has anything to do with this. All the while i have been driving the car before the draining and refilling, it never overheated. Or could it be because the idle speed was high, which was to prevent engine stalling at decelleration? I took the car to a rewire to diagnose the stalling of the car at decelletion, the rich fuel economy( I can still see black smoke from exhaust under acceleration), car running sluggishly, starting and stalling out every first time starting eveyday, hiccups when the throttle position change rapidly, etc. The rewire after hearing the problems/symptoms, said the MAF sensor was faulty, that it no longer hold and supply air while decelerating and also caused all other symptoms. Well, what a guess work! He could be right or wrong. I checked online and read that the simplest way of testing MAF sensor is to unplug the wiring connector on the sensor. That the engine would run better if the sensor is faulty. I tried it but didnt see any difference. The engine was running the same. I found about 3 used MAF sensor for sale and the seller agreed to test and confirm them on my car before i pay. The price is N7,000.00 (Seven thousand naira), about $46 (forty six US dollars). But thats quite expensive for us over here, Its a big sum of money which i cant afford now till the end of the month. But i want to test the car MAF sensor according to the book but didnt understand it. The book says"The female connector of the PIN OUT BOX harness must be connected to the Injection ECU of the car". Please what is the PIN OUT BOX and the FEMALE CONNECTOR? Also what does the book means by saying "The male connector of the Pin out box remains connected to the wiring harness of the vehicle" before carrying out the test? And in the Table, under the Pin nos. Column, what pin nos are those? Are they pin nos on the ECU or the wiring connector on the ECU?. Actually, not understanding any of these has been the reason why i havent carried out thorough test on the electrical wirings and devices of the car. Horhay, pls confirm if the part nos of your MAF sensor on your V6 is: 0 280 213 006. I just want to be sure if the MAF sensor on my car is actually the V6 type. I attached pics also. I noticed that one of the wires on one of the 3 relays above fuse box was not connected (Injection, fuel pump and Ignition relays). The wire goes to the pin 4 of the relay. Though, the diagram on the book shows that Ignition relay pin 4 had no wiring connector. I will try and find out if that is the Ignition relay. Pic attached. I also attaced pic of the blocked hose of the coolant expansion bottle. Ikenna. Ikenna__MAF_sensor_testing_.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Yesterday, someone recommended a mechanic for me, whom he said have knowledge of all models of Peugeot cars, even the 403. that he even had worked with PAN (Peugeot Automobile Nigeria) before he left and opened his workshop. Three hours ago, I decided to give him a call. Below is the conversation between us: ME: Hello. Am I speaking with Austin, the Peugeot Mechanic? MECHANIC: Yes. ME: Am Ikenna. Someone recommended you to me and gave me your phone nos. I recently a bought a 505 V6 and the car had some issues when it arrived, which am yet to fix. Its having excessive fuel problem, emitting black smoke from the exhaust and fuel diluting engine oil in the sump. Its a converted car. Originally a 4 cylinder engine car. I wouldnt know if the problem with car is caused by poor wiring swapped during the conversion or just that something/a part in the car is faulty.A rewire suggested that the Mass Airflow Sensor should be replaced to fix the problem. But i would like to know if you have knowledge of the ZN3J (505 V6 engine) so that i can bring it to you to have a look before i try the MAF replacement. So, what do you think? MECHANIC: First, you have made a big mistake in buying 505 V6. So, to be honest with you, I would advice you to remove or replace the V6 engine with I4 engine. What a waste of call! I will just have to fix the problem myself or keep looking till i find a mechanic that have knowledge of ZN3J. This can really tell you what we have here, in the name of Mechanics. Ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 It's unfortunate that the mechanic doesn't like the V6, but he still might be a good mechanic that should be familiar with Peugeot components and how they should be set up. If he knows the newer cars well - he should be able to look at yours and sort it out. Sadly ALL the problems you are dealing with are due to a crappy conversion, and not inherently the fault of the car itself. 99% of Peugeot's bad reputation is caused by crappy mechanics doing poor maintenance, but sadly when people have problems they blame the car itself. Peugeot's aren't perfect, but they're also not any more troublesome than any other car. (All cars have issues!) So it would still be worth checking him out - but he's only worth putting up with if he's GOOD. If he's a hack "rewire" like the rest - then you are better off fixing it yourself. It doesn't matter what the car is - a good mechanic will be able to figure out fuel. spark, and ignition set up. Specific knowledge of Peugeot is only somewhat valuable for engine rebuild experience and other similar tasks that come from experience - and even then it's just a nice bonus. Good luck Ikenna! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Sorry Ikenna - I didn't see this till now. Its been over a week since I have been using the car. I drained and refilled the diluted engine oil. Also replaced the oil filter. I also drained water in the cooling system and refilled with coolant only. I noticed a leak around the FPR and had the FPR replaced. I noticed the idle speed had been high all the while. I acted on the throttle stop screw and the sound lowered, but it started to loose power, misfire and stall at decelleration. So i returned it to the previous setting, which i knew wasnt normal. I tried to adjust the TPS but it wouldnt work since the idle speed was too high, so let it go. I started driving it like that. You need the TPS set properly so that the ECU knows it's supposed to idle. If the ECU doesn't know it's supposed to idle it will run like crap. Set it the way it should be, if it causes poorer running find out why and fix it. If you leave everything as is because it runs better - you'll never find and fix the root cause. Three days ago, the car overheated while returning from work. Maybe there was airlock in the cooling system after draining and refilling with coolant. The coolant reservoir/expansion bottle is absent in the engine bay. The hose that should lead to the bootle was cut off and blocked with a bolt. So i fliled up the system via the bleed screw opening with syringe, thinking that it would remove all the air and filled up with coolant. When the car overheated (the needle a little over the cental zone on the instrument cluster) and stalled the engine, i opened the bonnet and saw the radiator upper hose expanded. After, it cooled off, a day after, i opened the bleed screw and air gushed out. I dont think Vicous Fan has anything to do with this. All the while i have been driving the car before the draining and refilling, it never overheated. Or could it be because the idle speed was high, which was to prevent engine stalling at decelleration? You need to get an expansion bottle in place as soon as possible! They're all the same from any 505, so get it in, and hook it up to that hose connection. Cooling systems NEED to expand, and without that bottle you're just asking for damage as the pressure will surely blow a hose, or worse - a head gasket. I took the car to a rewire to diagnose the stalling of the car at decelletion, the rich fuel economy( I can still see black smoke from exhaust under acceleration), car running sluggishly, starting and stalling out every first time starting eveyday, hiccups when the throttle position change rapidly, etc. The rewire after hearing the problems/symptoms, said the MAF sensor was faulty, that it no longer hold and supply air while decelerating and also caused all other symptoms. Well, what a guess work! He could be right or wrong. I checked online and read that the simplest way of testing MAF sensor is to unplug the wiring connector on the sensor. That the engine would run better if the sensor is faulty. I tried it but didnt see any difference. You are bouncing around all over the engine but you aren't resolving anything (That I can tell), so helping you troubleshoot is very difficult. You need to sort things out and make sure they're 100% functional before you can eliminate it. I still don't know if the fuel lines are hooked up properly, IAC working perfect, FPR working perfect, and the TPS sensor functioning and set properly. I know it's very difficult for you there with no info - but from the perspective of trying to help - it's very difficult when things can't be eliminated. But i want to test the car MAF sensor according to the book but didnt understand it. The book says"The female connector of the PIN OUT BOX harness must be connected to the Injection ECU of the car". Please what is the PIN OUT BOX and the FEMALE CONNECTOR? Also what does the book means by saying "The male connector of the Pin out box remains connected to the wiring harness of the vehicle" before carrying out the test? And in the Table, under the Pin nos. Column, what pin nos are those? Are they pin nos on the ECU or the wiring connector on the ECU?. Actually, not understanding any of these has been the reason why i havent carried out thorough test on the electrical wirings and devices of the car. PIN OUT BOX is a dealer only tool. Most you can do is simply swap in a known good one as a test when you don't have factory tools. What makes this hard is that the rest of the issues haven't been eliminated like I mentioned above. Female connector is the side that the connector pins go into. I noticed that one of the wires on one of the 3 relays above fuse box was not connected (Injection, fuel pump and Ignition relays). The wire goes to the pin 4 of the relay. Though, the diagram on the book shows that Ignition relay pin 4 had no wiring connector. I will try and find out if that is the Ignition relay. Pic attached. Since this is a conversion, using the book won't be helpful. You'll need to free all the wires and trace them, but as long as the car is starting and running - I would leave sorting the wiring till last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N9TE Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Ikenna, Rabin is giving you sage advice. Did you ever get a ZN3J factory book? If not, it's pretty important that you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Ikenna, Rabin is giving you sage advice. Did you ever get a ZN3J factory book? If not, it's pretty important that you do. Off course, I have the book. but the book is not helping in this matter. The book didnt state the factory TPS adjustment settings, which mine has been tampered with. So getting it to factory settings is a really big problem fior me. I wouldnt know which of the three wiring connectors of the TPS to probe and test to get the readings Horhay gave me in one of his earlier post. All what the book is saying is to test from the ECU which I dont have the PIN OUT BOX to be used for the test. It dosent even exist in this part of the world. I have replaced the IAC valve and the FPR (all used ones). The FPR was leaking fuel round it, so i bought a good used one and replaced it. The car was stalling at decelleration. I replaced the IAC (though a different shape, which i will attach the pic tomorrow morning) and the stalling stopped, even under heavy loads like AC. I did some constructive work on the vacuum lines, to eliminate any form of leak. I pull out the supply and return fuel lines, checked the flow, they all checked out. Fuel supplies and returns well back to fuel Tank. I checked the fuel pumps. They run, but wouldnt know if the main fuel pump supplies enough fuel according to factory spec, since i wouldnt know if the pump is the V6 pump or if it supplies enough fuel according to factory. The V6 book didnt say anthing about fuel pump. But the hiccups at change of throttle position, sluggish running, excessive fuel/black smoke from the exhaust are still there. The only thing I havent done is the cleaning of injectors. I once tried to check their spray pattern, as suggested by Rabin, but wouldnt know what i was even looking for. Yes, Fuel was coming out from the nozzles when clanked the engine, but wasnt actually spraying. A kind of a little straight flow from all tthe injectors, was what i saw. I didnt read much meaning into it, since if they are flowing little fuel, then, lean mistures would be the case. But here, Rich mixtures/excessive fuel is what am diagnosing. I put the injectors back without cleaning them, which was the main reason of bringing them out in the first place. Getting the TPS adjusted properly is one big concern to me now. The book didnt say how to get it done, so am lost. I spent all my savings in getting the car. Replacing all the injection and ignition parts of the car would be a very big financial problem for me, which would have been the first place i would start. I never expected to meet this type of problem after spending so much, because i was assured that the car was in perfect condition. Anyway, thats by the way. No need of looking for where or whom to shift the blames to. Its now my car. I have to deal with it. Am just trying my best with the little i have now. The major problem is that someone tampered with the TPS settinngs, Throttle stop screw and the MAF sensor, while trying to fix the excessive fuel problem, i believe. Re-adjusting them back without the settings stated in the book is a very very big problem. I tried to readjust the throttle stop, the TPS adjustment changed. I then tried to return the TPS adjustment i got in the original readings i tested it with multimeter, then the idling got worse. Now i have tuned the throttle stop screw to a good engine idle speed. What is remaining, but confusing to me, is how to get TPS volts readings and adjust . properly. In one of the days i was working on the car, the black smoke stopped all of a sudden. But couldnt tell what did it because i worked,cleaned, readjusted a lot of things before i noticed the success. Later on, the black smoke started again when trying to stop the hunting and stalling, which have stopped. The issue now is that i cant work with that V6 book if i really want to fix these problems with the car. The conversion changed that. Its really a complicated matter. But am not giving up. Why? I had the choice of purchasing a XN1A 505 that are very much available here and easier to fix, to prevent what am going through now with this car. But i made that choice, the decision to track a V6, get one and update my technical know how of autos, rather than been static with the knowledge i have gathered with fuel carbureted engine cars i have been using before now. Its just that dealing with a converted one made it very difficult. Ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 I know you are frustrated Ikenna - but I like your determination. I just had to emphasize how important it is to resolve an issue correctly to eliminate it from the equation. Horjay helped you get the TPS adjusted as it should be, but when it didn't run well you changed it back - you can't do things like that and expect to figure out what's really wrong with the car. Everything was messed up to get the car to run no matter what - you need to change that so it runs as it should. Three wires is pretty easy to figure out if you have the ranges, which you have and which you did. You don't need specifics like wire colour as it's easy to figure out with trial and error - which you did anyway. So adjust the TPS the way it should be and focus on why it's running poorly. Injectors: Fuel should come out like a powerful mist, or a cloud of fuel with very fine particles. If they're coming out like a stream, the injectors are faulty, or the fuel pressure is too low. If the stream of fuel was very forceful then I'd suspect injectors - so you either need new ones, or those ones need to be properly cleaned with an ultrasonic cleaner. (carb clean in a can won't do it). With the issues you're having - bad injectors would explain a lot since the bigger the fuel droplet the harder it is to burn. Lots will wash down the cylinders when cold, and only when the engine is hot will the heat be enough to help vapourize some of the fuel - and that's when it will start running better. You can swap other injectors in with similar flow and similar resistance, so just google the number off them and see what injectors are close, and then find a set that are close and that spray nice and install them. Used I realize - but you need to test them and visually see that the turn the fuel into a very fine mist. I'm doing my best to help you get this car running 100%, so please don't take the criticisms negatively. I just want you to understand how important it is to do it right, otherwise it will be far more expensive, and far longer to resolve if you don't tackle and fix the issues systematically. Good luck - and keep us posted with details of what you find. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick@nite Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 It is starting to sound more like an injector and that is causing fuel to leak. Especially if you found the FPR leaking.... Good luck, I know this is been going on for a while and hope you can find a good mechanic soon, so you can enjoy the power of the ZN3J! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhayj505 Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 It is starting to sound more like an injector and that is causing fuel to leak. Especially if you found the FPR leaking.... Good luck, I know this is been going on for a while and hope you can find a good mechanic soon, so you can enjoy the power of the ZN3J! hey ikenna sorry i haven't responded in a bit i couldn't upload thepictures i took of my cars zn3j : ( so i added you on facebook im gonna open an album of my peugeot just for u since i can understand the frustration behind these things. my glx currently has one bad injector in it, when cold or after the car sits for awhile and i started it idles like crapy really shaky and rough after about one or two mins at idle it will all of a sudden run smooth,it also dilutes my oil but only if i don't change it will it drastically contaminate it because its just one faulty injector.what happens in my case is my injector leaks while car is off till there is no fuel pressure or little in the lines than when i start it it takes awhile to burn off the extra fuel in the cylinder.i know i should really get on that but money is scarce at the moment : (. i sent u that friends request on facebook so add me and i will get on that album as soon as i can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 hey ikenna sorry i haven't responded in a bit i couldn't upload thepictures i took of my cars zn3j : ( so i added you on facebook im gonna open an album of my peugeot just for u since i can understand the frustration behind these things. my glx currently has one bad injector in it, when cold or after the car sits for awhile and i started it idles like crapy really shaky and rough after about one or two mins at idle it will all of a sudden run smooth,it also dilutes my oil but only if i don't change it will it drastically contaminate it because its just one faulty injector.what happens in my case is my injector leaks while car is off till there is no fuel pressure or little in the lines than when i start it it takes awhile to burn off the extra fuel in the cylinder.i know i should really get on that but money is scarce at the moment : (. i sent u that friends request on facebook so add me and i will get on that album as soon as i can. Hi horhay. I have already accepted your friendship request on Facebook long time ago. Hmm! You have a beautiful girlfriend man. Dont lose her. Anyway, i have decided to stop using the car until i sort out the problems with the car, no matter how long it takes, weeks or months. I dont want to die before my time, which the issues with the car is pushing me to. Ikenna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhayj505 Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 Hi horhay. I have already your friendship request on Facebook long time ago. Hmm! You got a beautiful girlfriend man. Dont lose her. Anyway, i have decided to stop using the car until i sort out the problems with the car, no matter how long it takes. Ikenna. awesome : ) thanx man she's awesome very supportive.and loving,and she loves my peugeot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 awesome : ) thanx man she's awesome very supportive.and loving,and she loves my peugeot Lucky you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikenna Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 UPDATE: Last week Saturday, I pulled down the fuel tank and checked for dirts in the tank. There wasnt much dirt to cause problem for the fuel filter and injectors. I poured out the fuel and cleaned it anyway. I replaced the fuel filter. I made sure the supply and return fuel line were ok before mounting the tank back. I searched for where I could do ultrasonic injectors cleaning, but could find such place. I was advice to clean with carb cleaner, which everyone does around here. I asked and was told new injectors cant be found new here, except used ones. Well, i went To a place where they clean injectors and was told that my injectors were not the cause of the black smoke, rather the MAF sensor. That i should take it to a rewire to replace it. I drove it to the auto shop where i once found the MAF. They tested their 3 used MAF sensor, but the problem didnt go. I was running the same. So they put back mine. I started using the car like that, since the fuel no longer dilutes oil in the sump. I even bought and installed the coolant expansion bottle. The car was running fine, even with the black smoke thing, but with poor fuel economy which i didnt mind because of its performance on the road. The starter was acting up since the car arrived. It would click sometimes when tried to clank the engine. But it started to get worse. The click sound showed that the Bendix was shooting, but the starter motor wouldnt turn. I asked around and was told the solenoid of the starter (Long 505 starter) wont be easy to find in the part of the country I stay, which they believe was the culprit. Though, i have 2 spare solenoid of that type of starter in good condition, but are very far away in the eastern part of the country where i grew up. A mechanic asked me to bring the car, that he would bring out the starter and take it to where the solenoid can be rebuilt. I did that. I took the car to him 4 days ago and left the car with him since i had to get back to work. He called me later in the day and told me the starter was turning fine off the car, but wouldnt turn when installed. That the rewire that tested the starter said the problem would be the car wiring, which the rewire had started working on. I went there on Tuesday to see things for myself. Getting there, I saw that the rewire working on the starter relay wiring connector. He also had tampered with the wiring connector of the Amplifier module. i wouldnt know why he would do that. Before me, he tried to start the car, but the car would start. After a several trial, he touched the ignition coil and said the coil was hot and that the Amplifier module and the coil was the cause of the car not starting. I was mad!. This is a car i have been driving since February without the coil giving any sign of failure. He wouldnt admit that he was that one that spoilt the Amp module and coil with the wrong wiring connection. What a huge additional cost on me on just to fix my starter. Now the car wouldnt even start. Anyway, they collected a used Amp module and a coil from an auto seller. Unfortunately, it wasnt the part no of the one originally in the car. The colour is blue, while the original one in the car is white. It also has a different wiring connector. I believed that Amp module is for I4 cylinder, used by most 505 with I4 engine. But he claimed it would do the same work. After he installed it, he tried to start the engine, it took the engine about 3 or 4 minutes to start. It really doing hard starting. You will have to press the accelerator and hold it to the floor while clanking the engine and it would take minutes to pick up and run. He claimed the Amp module and coil wasnt the cause of the serious hard starting. That it was the injectors and throttle body. Hmm! To cut the story short. Yesterday, Wednesday, the rewire cleaned the injectors and throttle body. I bought new spark plugs and changed them with the old ones. Yet the hard starting is still there. I mean serious one, which i would prefer the starter not clanking the engine than the engine clanking but wont start until 4 or 5 mins of clanking. Please what could be the cause of the hard starting? Is the Amplifier Module he put or the coil? Though, the car seems idle fine when eventually started. Has the wrong connection he did before affected something else like the Ignition ECU, Throttle position sensor,etc. Any Idea pls anyone? This has gone beyond me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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