V-M Posted September 10, 2005 Report Share Posted September 10, 2005 Hello, I'm building new engine for my crey car. Block is now machined for 96mm Volvo turbo pistons and all parts are balanced. Head is this self made dani head and cam is grinded dani cam. Turbo is from Lancia integrale 8v and size is A/R 0.6, 48/72mm inlet size and outled is A/R ?, 48/58mm pictures are on my home site (not all new engine pics (I'll add them with text). Block is lowered 1.4mm and original con.rods are used (those did need some rework). And a lot of other small and big changes. Original head gasget will be tested but bit doubting how it will go cause metal ring is bit on cylinder side. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yq397r Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 Sounds very nice. Good luck getting it all put together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 Wow, very nice V-M!! I looked through your site again. There is always something new and interesting! You do some very intense and impressive fabrication! I like the front mount intercooler setup with what looks like a saab 9000 intercooler? And the turbo... http://kotinetti.suomi.net/enkenberg/Peuge...s/IMG_0019.html That is one HUGE turbo! Do you ever take your modified 505turbo cars to the dyno? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 wow, looks amazing! few questions if you wouldnt mind? * do you have any pictures of the exhaust manifold? * is the AFM stock? * what injectors / how much fuel @ what psi? * any idea on the compression ratio with the volvo pistons? * the spark plugs are re-positioned to danielson spec? or are they different. is this the result of the big turbo? the ATS wheels are dope as hell! are the direct bolt on's? i've looked on the ATS site but didn't see anything for the 505, are they custom? there are a few people on this forum who are interested in doing similar things so any info appreciated. again, great job, and thanks for the info so far! can't wait to hear more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted September 11, 2005 Report Share Posted September 11, 2005 also, mellior offers a 'competition' grade head gasket for the N9 which is supposedly what they used on some danielson race cars. http://www.mecaparts.com/Jointculasse/meil...=peugeot&lang=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webmaster Posted September 12, 2005 Report Share Posted September 12, 2005 Thank you for your post and info VM, and welcome to the forum! We look forward to hearing more about your project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted September 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Wow, very nice V-M!! I looked through your site again. There is always something new and interesting! You do some very intense and impressive fabrication! I like the front mount intercooler setup with what looks like a saab 9000 intercooler? And the turbo...http://kotinetti.suomi.net/enkenberg/Peuge...s/IMG_0019.html That is one HUGE turbo! Do you ever take your modified 505turbo cars to the dyno? ← Yes, that is Saab 9000 94-> IC (newer model) shold hold 1.5bar boost, but i'll nly use 1-1.2bar max. I'm looking better turbo (Mitsu TDO4 -18 7#) but until I'll use this one. I have dynoed but there were basic setups mainly and a lot of small broblems. Now main probs are solved. Let's see how it goes... Currently I have all basic sets in car (stock LE jetr and ing. box etc...) V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted September 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 * do you have any pictures of the exhaust manifold? * is the AFM stock? * what injectors / how much fuel @ what psi? * any idea on the compression ratio with the volvo pistons? * the spark plugs are re-positioned to danielson spec? or are they different. is this the result of the big turbo? the ATS wheels are dope as hell! are the direct bolt on's? i've looked on the ATS site but didn't see anything for the 505, are they custom? 1. Yes, those are in my pages? 2. Currently yes 3. stock inj. (adj. pressure control added 1:1) but I hace set off saab 9000 2.3T injectors which are ~390cc/min in 3bar, stock ones are giving 324cc/min (0 280 150 200) in 3 bar. 4. That was strange thing! when I measured stock piston top it was 18ml and dani head was 50ml -> compressionratio was 8.78 Should be ~8 Volvo piston top was 19ml so compression ratio is 8.67 Could be at I need to grind some space in head to get it close to 8 I have stock inj.adv. box but from never model ->86 which have bit lower advance than <-85 models, but I'll take both boxes in dyno and run with each one one run when every thing else is checked and corrected. I'll also make adjustable cam gear (there was some one asking that in different topic?) That racing gasget is not helping cause piston hole diameter is too small for that 96mm piston But there is couple of alternatives to do it different way (more details later). I did balance conrods (separetely both ends) and main axcel were grinded and balanced also (grind to 0.2 over size), note: main axcel were bend 0.8mm at center, but that was also corrected at macinery shop. Let's see if stock clutch will hold that power (I'll use LuK cluch whic is claimed to hold +20% better torgue than stock... but still). Those wheels which are now in car are wolfrace racing wheels 15" (very light) tyres are now 205/55/15 and seems also bit rare wheels? Those ATS wheels 14" are also bit rare and I don't know those history? I'll but 195/60/14 tyres on those. Feel free to ask any details, I try to member all changes but my memory is not so good But I cladly share my knowledge and have no intress to hold any details if it helps others. Car will be as stock from out side (exept wheels and bit lower) and interior will be from Mi16 (seats and steering wheel). Also exhoust end is stock (see pictures in my site). V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Fantastic work V-M! Can you detail the changes necessary to the rods to run the Volvo pistons? Was the piston pin location close - or was that the change necessary to locate them properly? Any pictures / measurement differences? I want to up the compression ration on my engine and I'm hoping to be able to do it with pistons from a similar but more readily available parts. Pretty much everything I've had in mind to do - you've already done, so I'm very intrigued to see how you've done it... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted September 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 (edited) I forget about those spark plugs those are located at same place as original dani head and plug is 10mm thread -> NGK C8E Con.rod are machined also from top. Original is ~28mm wide and Volvo piston inner size is 24mm -> Con.rod were machined to 23.5mm. Pictures are coming... soon on site. One of my 505 turbo were sold yesterday -> 86 model with 183tkm and I was second owner, newer smoked inside and no speaker holes or anything extra. Also this evolution spoiler set were sold with it. Luckily new owner is ex. fighter pilot so he knows speed and requirements for it . He also ordered "dani" stage 1 set from me (cam, new rockers (at factory packets) and modified fuel regulator). V-M Edited September 15, 2005 by V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Just to be sure: The rod width was narrowed to fit the piston correct? No changes at all to the pin? Was the Peugeot piston pin used or was the volvo pin used? If that's the case - can you tell me the make / model / engine code for the engine the Volvo pistons came from? I was thinking of specing out custom replacements - but using stock pistons from another make is so much easier - plus the availability of rings and + sizes means future maintenance is a breeze. I'm not sure I'll be doing the Dani head mods - but I'd very interested in a "mild" upgrade - something in between the stock and dani spec as I'd like to have the broadest, fattest torque curve possible with the engine building power/boost at as low an rpm as possible. I'm not going for peak power - just broad usable power for as much of the rev range as possible. (That's not too much to ask is it? Goal so far is to spec 8.5:1 compression, 15 -18 psi, GT 25, or GT 28 Turbo with custom exhaust manifold, and a stand alone ECU. (Still waivering on MS 2 or doing the Dodge ECU) Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 VM: are you a danielson reseller? or did you just have an extra stage I lying around .. also, what are the differences in the stage I? From what i understand its just plug angle (no other structual changes to the head (to prevent cracking)), D cam, 3bar (?) FPR, wastegate actuator.. but the rockers are different? anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted September 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 VM: are you a danielson reseller? or did you just have an extra stage I lying around .. also, what are the differences in the stage I? From what i understand its just plug angle (no other structual changes to the head (to prevent cracking)), D cam, 3bar (?) FPR, wastegate actuator.. but the rockers are different? anything else? ← I collect some answers here: Pin is from volvo 23mm so that have to be re-done also for conrod top. Engine is Volvo B 230 FT also 230 ET will do but ET has smaller space in piston top. I'll have next week also set of ET pistons so I'll measure that to make it sure. That engine is used in 240,740,940 series In macinery shop gyus where bit confused when I requested that "grind this to 96mm" usually 2mm is max from original size. and now this is more than 4mm. Of cause walls are rather narrow now you can hear when knoking by finger inside of cylinder and comparing it between original and grinded one. No I'm no reseller, I have grind model for dani cam and I have sold my used one (of cause) and re done new for my self (I do know law). Only diffrence is from dani stage 1 to stage 2 is head. And seems at also dani original head has that same weaknes as normal ones. FPR is 3.2bar in dani set, it is normal 2.5bar FBR but has been pressed from top. actuator is stiffer. Rockers are standard in std and dani head. But grinded of cause has different "hit" angle to cam, that could be softened by using slash cabs ~2mm thikness is enough. Low rev. torgue is expected also and hp should not go over 300hp from engine, I have fear at torgue is over 450Nm and clutch will go off. If I buy this SPEC 0032 or 0033 clutch then gear or diff will give up. I'd have some speed up with std Cosworth sierra with my old set up Dyno curve and I get skin of head but it was close... but coswoth does 0-100 in 6.5sec and it did loose when we change to 2gear and speeded up, not much but still. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted September 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 Also Volvo B21ET piston can be used but conrod needs to canged (needs to be bit shorter conrod) more than can be removed from top of piston. 21ET piston size is 92mm and have space in piston top also. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 very interesting.. i didn't even know there was a danielson stage II head! hmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Lindroos Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 very interesting.. i didn't even know there was a danielson stage II head! hmmm I think V-M meant that the difference between Danielson stage I and II kit is that the stage II has the Danielson head and stage I has the original head. So, there's only one kind of a Danielson head. ;-) BTW, I'm quite satisfied with the my camshaft that has been grounded to Danielson specs. Currently the exhaust manifold is leaking badly, one or two nuts are always loose or missing and I'm using two gaskets which are meant for the non-turbo version of N9T engine (Talbot Tagora, Matra Murena)... I have to change the gasket soon (going to put a new original Peugeot gasket) and maybe I'll do a dyno run after that to get something on the paper too. ;-) Boost pressure should be now configured at about 0,8 bar. I think that leaking exhaust manifold is slowing down the car, it takes more time to spool up? It's not fun to change the exhaust manifold gasket while the engine is in the car, that's why I have postponed that operation again and again. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 I think V-M meant that the difference between Danielson stage I and II kit is that the stage II has the Danielson head and stage I has the original head. So, there's only one kind of a Danielson head. ;-) ← aah, thanks for the clarification Toni! the danielson cam in the stock head is a good setup for sure... i've been thinking more about the danielson head lately though... the only difference is the plug angle (right?), so whats the real advtage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted September 17, 2005 Report Share Posted September 17, 2005 Awesome info V-M... I'm really liking the idea of a 4mm increase in bore, increased compression, and the availability of the pistons and rings for the Volvo set up. Any idea who made the OEM Volvo pistons? (Turbo Dodge's have forged Mahle pistons!) Just curious though - as long as they're turbo pistons I'm happy... This also opens up some possibilities with the Volvo aftermarket - if guys have known mods for their 2.3 Turbos then it makes sense now that those same mods could be used in the N9TE... Thanks very much for the info! It will definitely help with the search for different alternatives for building these engines up. Now I can't wait to see what your dyno graph looks like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Lindroos Posted September 18, 2005 Report Share Posted September 18, 2005 the danielson cam in the stock head is a good setup for sure... i've been thinking more about the danielson head lately though... the only difference is the plug angle (right?), so whats the real advtage. That should be the only difference. In the stock head the plug is as it were in a deep hole and it doesn't point towards the center of the combustion chamber. In the Danielson head the plug is more closer to the surface and points more to the center. At least in theory that should be better. I don't know how much that makes difference in hp. Maybe V-M can tell some details? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted September 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 Well, difference is that 30hp which is stage 1 and stage 2 difference. So theory should do also in practice Also it adds more compression, a little but still. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 Well, difference is that 30hp which is stage 1 and stage 2 difference. So theory should do also in practice Also it adds more compression, a little but still.V-M ← how much of that 30 HP is from the cam, and how much is from the stage II head though? any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Lindroos Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Well, difference is that 30hp which is stage 1 and stage 2 difference. So theory should do also in practice Also it adds more compression, a little but still. Great, that makes me want a Danielson head for my car too. ;-) But if I remember correctly, it was quite expensive to make one from a stock head? Welding is probably the most expensive single operation? Is there any downsides with the Danielson head compared to the stock one or is it just simply better?-) I wonder why Peugeot didn't relocate those spark plug holes? Probably they just didn't want to modify the old desing from non-turbo versions of that engine more than they had to make it work ("plugged" that hole for the mechanical fuel pump, anything else?)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted September 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 Great, that makes me want a Danielson head for my car too. ;-) But if I remember correctly, it was quite expensive to make one from a stock head? Welding is probably the most expensive single operation?Is there any downsides with the Danielson head compared to the stock one or is it just simply better?-) I wonder why Peugeot didn't relocate those spark plug holes? Probably they just didn't want to modify the old desing from non-turbo versions of that engine more than they had to make it work ("plugged" that hole for the mechanical fuel pump, anything else?)... ← Welding and plug holes where nearly the same plug holes work was bit suprise (bad one). Next head I'll do those my self. There is no downsize They added extra exhaust manifold srew at front and those extra rings between exh. manifold and head. I have couple of those Talbot/Matra/Chrysler heads also V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 IPD USA lists replacement pistons for the B230FT with std, and 2 over sizes. Comes with pistons, pins, and rings. $410 USD... (OEM pistons are Mahle... I'm now gathering info to see what others Volvo guys have used. I know of one build up that the guy used small block chevy pistons - but he also may have used custom rods... So far this is the sweetest possibility for building up the motor. Since I'm not going for 400+ HP I'm thinking the 4mm bore shouldn't affect longevity since the block is already pretty beefy. Maybe I should do what Audi did with their WRC engines back in the day. (New blocks were apparently left outside to get nice and rusty. When they were suitably rusty they were machined and used as the race engines. Can't remember the reason though - might have something to do with the iron oxide? Surface hardening? Or maybe stress relieving from the casting process? (Those are just guesses though.) I've also heard old blocks make the best race engines since they have had all the heat cycles and such... Rabin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted September 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 Original pistons are Mahle also. That heat stress is true. I have also heard of rust agening and also owen (heat) stress agening. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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