505T Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 The 505 Turbo Blackie is somewhat of a mystery to me and I was reminded of it after watching a couple of videos on the site. Is the 505 featured Blackie? Any info on the vehicle and what has been done to it? Dispell all myths.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 From what i've heard about blackie it's a stock 89 turbo automatic. But i've never personally talked to the owner. August may know more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Yep, the only black 89 turbo that isn't blackie is "505 duel. grey 505 vs stock '89 (5mb)", all the others are. Trevor is right, blackie is a %100 stock 89 505 turbo automatic. It's been tuned by an experienced Peugeot mechanic to stock spec, which is why its so god damn fast. I'm not sure what kind of gas he uses, but i'm sure its pretty damn kickass (nothing like we get here in cali). (i'll see if i can get the owner or the tuner to post some more info on it here) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugnut Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 The 505 Turbo Blackie is somewhat of a mystery to me and I was reminded of it after watching a couple of videos on the site. Is the 505 featured Blackie? Any info on the vehicle and what has been done to it? Dispell all myths.... ← I own Blackie. It is bone stock as per the Peugeot manual, not as it came from the factory. In other words, it took a lot of effort, time, parts, and money to get it that way. Its an '89 automatic with over 100,000 miles (maybe about 120,000-ish). It had 15% window tint when I got it but by then it had lightened to about 20-25% and purpled. B/c of the purpling I had it removed and had 5% black tint installed (can't see inside the car now). I worked overnights and my eyes gave me trouble from never giving them a rest in full darkness so this was a near necessity, plus it made it easier on the A/C in the summer and gave some extra privacy. It no longer has the chromed factory wheels installed as 2 were bent by a careless driver (my better half). Its kind of OK since I could never bring myself to remove them to replace with factory wheels even though they were heavier than the stock wheels which hurts acceleration slightly and braking capabilities (both b/c of a heavier rotating mass as compared to the stock wheel, not to mention it also added overall weight to the car which hurts acceleration & braking as well), plus the chromed wheel doesn't dissipate heat as well as the factory aluminum wheels so the brakes would fade noticeably easier in this car (but it took a LOT of effort to get 'em to fade, like 3x the speed limit to zero quite a few times). Blackie is the car in some of the videos on this site, but not all as there is another '89 505 Turbo in a few videos as well. Blackie is very very fast. Very fast. Especially surprising since it is 100% stock. The HP was measured to be 217 at the rear wheels. Using regularly accepted power loss percentage of 15% (but probably an over-estimate of power loss in the Peugeots at least) that would equal to about 255 bhp. Ha. And yet somehow it outran a supercharged Cobra at top speeds. Maybe the high torque output (higher than the HP) or the broad torque and power bands. Who knows. Maybe it was magic. Its most amazing ability (as with any 505 with the Teves ABS system and the correct brake pads and rotors in decent shape and decent tires) was stopping - it could almost make you & passengers pass out from the G-forces. Especially when doing a brake test stop from 160mph (prolonged exposure to high G-forces). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Did you get your horsepower numbers from a dyno? I'm intrigued to find out how you achieved a 42% increase in power over factory spec and still kept the car stock. Pretty impressive. What kind of things were done to make it stock as per the manual as opposed to off the showroom floor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 I'm going to guess it was done on a 10degree night, with good gas, and with everything set just right. pugnut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
505T Posted August 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Thanks a lot PugNut. I have always wondered as to the identity of the car and its specs...and I find it interesting that what was done to it actually is a "restoration" to what the factory said it was. Any possibility of pics? I have never seen an 89 in person...only an 88 that I came this close to owning. Nice avatar August! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugnut Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 Did you get your horsepower numbers from a dyno? I'm intrigued to find out how you achieved a 42% increase in power over factory spec and still kept the car stock. Pretty impressive. What kind of things were done to make it stock as per the manual as opposed to off the showroom floor? ← The rwhp testing was done with an accelerometer (which I find to be very accurate despite others' opinions on the matter that probably don't know the true weight of their vehicle-which significantly throws off readings) on about a 20 deg F night, with pump 93 octane gasoline (from Shell) on a long, straight, and flat stretch of road. Every spec we've gotten has been checked, re-checked, cross-referenced, cross-checked, etc. To be able to do this, I have a radar gun (and both tuning forks to ensure its calibrated & working properly), accelerometer, we have a measured mile nearby, and all sorts of other methods so that we could actually test its capabilities to try to reverse-calculate its power/torque output, speedometer/odometer discrepancies, mpg, 1/4 mile runs, 0-60, etc. We have seen that in about a half-mile it'd get to 134mph and still be accelerating very very hard even tho the speedo read about 110-115mph varying with each run. We've seen the speedo be off by more than 10% even at highway speeds or slower. We've observed all sorts of things about the cars and are always blown away. The odometer usually is off but in relation to the speedo, indicating about 26mpg instead of 29-30 actual mpg when we check fuel consumption. What the car is capable of is not normal for a car with even as much as 217hp at the rear wheels (that'd be about a 255 bhp engine'd car), and yet its even further from what the car should be capable of if it truly had the hp output as it was rated from the factory. I don't know why its ssooo much higher output than what it was rated for. I do know that the power and torque curves are much better than most engines so you would end up with better performance results than a similarly-powered engine in another car since its the area under the curve that matters for performance moreso than the peak HP & peak torque specs. But that still doesn't account for the higher than stock peak HP & torque #s. I'm guessing that Peugeot was very conservative in their ratings so that even if you had the car at 10,000 ft of elevation (electrovalve boost control would compensate for this high altitude by upping boost as long as no high engine temps & no knocking/pinging), was 115 def F outside, and every other possible environmental condition present to reduce power & torque output, meaning that under optimal conditions you'd be getting more power & torque output, better fuel consumption, etc. Another thing that has crossed our minds over the years is that maybe the engine really did only produce 180bhp when brand new with only a handful of miles on it and maybe it really was only capable of getting 20mpg highway when brand new. Evidence of this: Joe's parents got horrible fuel consumption in their Peugeot wagon when new, and it was kinda weak too. When we have taken apart an N9Txx engine with about 150,000 miles on it and had been abused horribly, the cylinder honing marks were still clearly visible on the cylinder walls meaning that the engine hadn't even completely broken in yet (somehow!!??). I think they used awesome rings & the metal was very hard in the cylinder walls to accomplish this. Also, the only N9Txx engine I've had thats was rebuilt very shortly after I got it was very VERY weak for tens of thousands of miles after I got it even under about 9psi of boost. Its fuel consumption also sucked horribly - I didn't even check it because I knew it was so bad it would disgust me to check it but I'm sure it was worse than about 15mpg. Like Joe's parents with their wagon, I even thought something was wrong with the car, but many thousands of miles later it finally began to feel like it had broken-in since even with zero boost it was much faster than before and the fuel consumption was noticeably over 30mpg, especially cruising on the highway at about 55-60mph. This rebuild used all original Peugeot parts of course (from a Peugeot rebuild kit), including Peugeot pistons & rings, bearings, etc. We did quite a few things different than it came off the showroom floor as far as we can tell. See, We've never purchased one new (were in grade school when new) but once we've gotten our hands on one, you can usually tell that things like the fuel injectors, fuel pressure regulator, etc., have never been replaced, especially after looking at a few dozen example cars and all are identically equipped. Also, none have probably ever had the boost adjusted and we've never seen a Turbo yet that had its boost set as high as it was supposed to be - usually at about 9psi or lower (sometimes even as low as 3 or 5 psi) for a N9TEA but should be 780mBar +/- 20mBar according to manual (which is 11.6psi if I remember correctly). The fuel injectors were the wrong ones according to the manual - they had a lower flow-rate than the ones that were listed in the manual as being correct for the '88 & '89's N9TEA engine. Even the fuel pressure regulator Joe found out on some parts fiche listings (or was it in the manual as well?) had a different (higher pressure) regulator for some reason that what was installed from the factory. Its almost like from the factory the cars were set to about 8.5 or 9psi, along with the fuel injectors and fuel pressure regulator for that boost level - maybe this has something to do with the rated power output levels as well, but I'm not sure 3psi more would account for 75 bhp over stock ratings. All of the parts that were listed in the manual were installed, as well as following the manual very carefully (like a perfectionist) to set the car up as far as ignition timing, mixture, idle rpm, tps adjustment, tire pressure, oil level & grade, etc. (everything in the manual), re-checking each one after the other was adjusted to make sure it was still set properly. I doubt the cars were set-up as precisely to the specs in the manual as Joe did & maybe this has something to do with the car's performance as well. We also used lots and lots of BG Chemicals 44k, aerosol internal combustion cleaner from dealerships (manufacturer branded like Ford Motor Co. or Mopar, etc.) as well as Gum-Out carb cleaner. These made a very noticeable difference as well - seemed to run cooler, ping less, electrovalve seemed to overboost more often & for longer, less emissions, more power, better fuel economy, less exhaust smell, and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
505T Posted August 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 Wow! I don't think I have ever heard of anything like this before! Speechless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 pugnut, do you remember the 1/4, and 0-60 times that same night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted August 27, 2005 Report Share Posted August 27, 2005 What weight do you use on the gtech for your 505? Does it have a display of how many G's you are pulling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 27, 2005 Report Share Posted August 27, 2005 I can believe the inaccurracies of the speedometer. I was on Alligator Alley in Florida one night several years ago. I was going about 80 when an Audi flew by us. I had just purchased the car, an '88 TW, and I was with my girlfriend. I took the speed way up, and it maxed out at 110 on the speedometer. I have a couple of questions about the N9TE. Can I, and what do I need to do, to upgrade to the 804's? Do you need to switch ecu's also? What about the electrovalve, if you add one from an N9TEA? Does the FPR get bumped to 3.0 or is that pretty much optional? It does make sense to replace the key components just by virtue of their age, like you are doing. Also, what is the stock boost level on the N9TE? I am currently at 7, and everything is stock and tuned. (I have a pressure-controlled boost gauge installed). As far as the boost level from the factory, wouldn't that be part of the Priority Delivery at the dealership, where they presumably do all the final fine-tuning adjustments and checks? Of course, it makes sense to get the engine broke-in a bit before pushing it, so maybe it's not that important at that time. It is so cool to have an understanding about these cars. -Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted August 27, 2005 Report Share Posted August 27, 2005 Bill, no real changes needed to upgrade to 804's. I'd also suggest switching to a 3.0 bar FPR, but thats up to you. Any fuel system upgrades / changes i'd suggest (re)adjusting the base mixture at idle (via AFM). The electrovalve from the N9TEA can't be used unless you have a N9TEA wiring harness, ECU's, and a black N9TEA NTC sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yq397r Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 wow, Blackie sounds like it is much much more powerful than I ever imagined. I remember finding videos of Blackie doing burnouts and racing a toyota Mr2 when i was in high school like 5 years ago. Its cool to know that the car is still being driven and well kept. You have a very nice car Pugnut. I knew the 88-89 turbo 505's were beefy but I never thought they would have anywhere near to 220hp to the rear wheels. Thats... inspiring. If that car is ever for sale, let me know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webmaster Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 Thank you for the info on blackie PugNut! We hope to see more posts on the forum about your other 'project' 505 turbo's! Do you have any pictures you could post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunktionFET Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 I miss Blackie... Ah, all the road trips we took in that beast. The coolest experience I believe was leaving the tollbooth at the bottom of a mountain on the I-77 freeway. The tollbooth was about 8 lanes wide (going our direction), but it squeezed down into 3 lanes going our direction all while climbing the steep grade. It was about 10 degrees F outside that evening. There were a number of cars and trucks around us and all you could hear was engines gasping for that thin air at wide-open-throttle. The throttle on Blackie was matted, and after the quick and all-too-familiar "whish" sound of the Garrett T3 spooling up, Blackie climbed up the hill and literally roared past everyone else as though it was being infused with sea-level air pressure--and a lot of it at that. The sound of the engine roaring beyond 4500 RPM, the wail of the turbocharger, the G-forces of acceleration amplified by the fact we were climbing a stout hill, combined with the impression from the passenger window that we were zooming past the other vehicles as though they were parked all was enough to put a giant smile on my face--and I was just along for the ride. Needless to say, we clearly earned lane choice. That alone made the $1.25 toll worth it in my opinion. The second coolest and by far the most intense situation was the 15 miles or so we spent at wide-open-throttle on the one-day-old section of 8 lane freeway traversing suburban north Raleigh. With nothing but sound walls and a tall concrete divider to our sides, it felt like our own race track. It was around 3 AM and most suburban dwellers were either in bed or just not aware that the road was open yet. We started at the beginning and kept the throttle matted the entire way--only lifting to part throttle twice--once for a lone car in the right lane and the other for a seemingly benign curve. The new freeway is mostly elevated and cut across the terrain, so there are no major hills--it is primarily just gentle rolling hills. Our speed fluctuated from an honestly calculated 154 going down one of the rollers to 142 (I think) climbing up the next. I recall the speed averaging somewhere in the high 140s most of the time. Blackie performs as though it has a lot more than 180bhp. Perhaps that is a worst case figure. It was rather cold that night--and we were on very fresh and smooth blacktop. Sadly we could probably never recreate that experience. Now, several years later, that road is heavily travelled even at night. It was just crazy to see the boost guage sitting right next to the red for that long--all while the coolant temp stayed almost glued at the 80C range, and the oil temp stabilized in about the middle of the guage. Remember proper spool down technique! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 HUGE resurection here. I think I may have found blackie. If it really was the same car, it is for sale in ATL. I really think this is the same car. From Ohio? Yes here is one shot. rear view shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 I didn't know Blackie was an automatic. It shatters some misconceptions. Whew. -B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 yeah, apparently it was. I still will never know how it clocked so many more horses than what the factory says... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 yeah, apparently it was. I still will never know how it clocked so many more horses than what the factory says... the horses were there because joe grubbs was the one tuning it. unfortunately, that isn't blackie. there are some body differences, and as far as i know, blackie is still immobile in NC somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 who has any more pics and videos of that car? who has joe grubbs contact? still in peugeot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 who has any more pics and videos of that car? who has joe grubbs contact? still in peugeot? > the car was retired years ago > grubbs was the man when it came to peugeot tuning. he read lots of factory manuals > no, grubbs is all about acura's and other fun stuff now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 eww?? acura?? wrong wheel drive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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