august Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 I had the pleasure of meeting Victor Van Tress a few weeks ago, who won the 1987 SCCA nationals in his red 86 505 Turbo featured below. Victor has some great stories about racing 505's, and the history of peugeot in general. a video was posted this past friday showing show footage of the 87 scca runoff's that Victor won. I think he's registered on this forum, so if any of you have any questons, he might respond http://www.505turbo.com/video/vvt_87_scca_nationals.avi Victor still owns / drives his winning Red #00 505, and its in great shape. As it says in the video, he drove this car to all the races he competed in around the country, and it has something like 160k on it now right Victor? Still using the same engine he used to win in 87. That's some reliability right there! In any case, please welcome Victor to the forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 I saw and downloaded the video last night and I was thinking "How the HELL did August find this clip?" - and now this answeres it nicely! If you read this Victor - welcome to the forum! It's an honour to have one of the active racers from the SCCA Production B series - and it's even cooler that you still have the car! Not many racers hold onto a car for so long - so that red car has to be something special! The picture of the TV ad is the add that I remember most from the late 80's - my brothers took me to a film festival that was showcasing the world's best commercials. That was the only time I've seen it, and to this day I'd love to get a copy of it. Commercial started with a pan shot of a fancy bedroom, with an announcer saying that it's not only the bedroom where the French perform best - they pan back and the 505 Turbo crashes through the window and comes to rest beside the bed... AWESOME commercial! If you get a chance to take some detailed pics of the car, and if you can give us a run down of the things that have been done to it - that would be most appreciated. I have a 86 GL-Turbo (stripper turbo made for the SCCA series) and I've got some extensive plans to turn it into the ultimate sleeper. Rabin PS - Sure hope you took some pics too August! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted December 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 The picture of the TV ad is the add that I remember most from the late 80's - my brothers took me to a film festival that was showcasing the world's best commercials. That was the only time I've seen it, and to this day I'd love to get a copy of it. Commercial started with a pan shot of a fancy bedroom, with an announcer saying that it's not only the bedroom where the French perform best - they pan back and the 505 Turbo crashes through the window and comes to rest beside the bed... AWESOME commercial! You mean this one? (thanks to Victor) http://www.505turbo.com/video/Reds_Commercial.avi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Great videos, those are really inspiring! And if you read this Victor, Welcome to the forum! It would truelly awesome if you could give us a little info on what's been done on the car! Is that car in the commercial Victors? It's surely a great commercial, they should have more of those on TV But how is it done? Did they actually jump that 505 through the window or is it trick-filmed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 hallelujah!! I've searched the various search engines, video sites, and pretty much any other source on the internet since it's inception and this is the first time I've seen it since that festival! Thanks VERY much Victor! This is a commercial that never aired in Canada, and I'm doubtful it aired in the US, because no one ever knew what I was talking about! Sounds funny - but seeing this commercial again is fantastic! Can't wait to hear more details! Rabin (Now to send this link to all my doubting so called friends in my car club that find it necessary to berate the mighty Peugeot!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSB Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 Thank everyone for receiving me. I am so very pleased to finally after all these years to find people who have found out what a truly great car these 505 Turbo's are. I only bought it to race in Showroom Stock yet 20 years later, I enjoy it all the more. Red won in 1987 & 1988 SSB National Championships ( which means it was driven flat out for 2.5 hours once a month for nearly three years for a total of 44 SCCA National Races) including $80,000 in prise money. So 100,000 miles after its last race, I can state absolutely that I have never added a quart of oil to it and all the parts that have broken on it I can hold in the palm of one hand (for those who might remember, I even got 6 years for the "Pink" battery). All this after being used in the commercial and flung threw the air, into a window and over a bed (BTW the car at the end of the commercial bouncing is not mine). However, while it was a race car it was maintained to 100%. We were given a dealer number by PMA and could buy parts at dealer cost. As mine was raced at stock (9.5 lbs) boost level I imagine I got better piston life than most (the ring land area would widen) and bought pistons for it once (it was hard to get 4 that weighed the same). Yet Reds future is not retirement, it is going to be back on the race track in an Improved Touring configuration within the next two years. Have to cut it short, Red & I have to battle the 405 freeway tomorrow and drive to San Diego. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 I think Victor's story of that Peugeot needs to be a magazine! I'm betting that the numbers of racers from SSB in the late 80's still driving their race car pretty much leaves Victor standing alone beside red! I also have to agree that these cars LOVE being driven hard. I bought a gorgeous 86' 505 Turbo in 92' and the owner just wanted to be rid of it. To him it was a white elephant that cost him a fortune in repairs. I drove this car HARD, and it was the most reliable car I've ever had. Car went to VA ('cause my brother needed a car) and when he gave me a minty rust free GL-Turbo 5-sp a couple years later, I ended up having to swap the motor out of my old car into the GL Turbo so I could get home (Exhaust valve chipped resulting in 0 compression in #3 on his car). Ended up driving from VA to Regina SK at 80 miles an hour for 40 hours! (And the engine sat in the car for months before being fired up and engine swapped!) I've autocrossed the car for 3 years, and each time I ran the car would just PURR after the event. Car has been parked for the last 12 months or so as she started to need some TLC and it just broke my heart to keep driving it when it needed to be sorted out. I've been planning it's restification since I owned the first 505 Turbo back in 92' - and now I'm finally in a place where I can start to make things happen with it. With Victor around - it's going to be REALLY hard not to cage it and do some road racing with it... Again Victor - it's a pleasure to have you on the board. Big thanks to August for making the introduction too! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSB Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 Oh this is fun. I have e-mailed a writer from Autoweek some time ago, named Cory Farley, after he wrote an article about the fact that the best car he ever owned was a former Showroom Stocker. I told him about Red and how it not only survives, it thrives. He didn't jump up and say "Hay lets do an article" but who knows, maybe someday. I'm betting when Rabin autocrosses his 505, people just don't understand. Give'em hell Rabin. I wonder what a back to back comparision of the Torsen Diff to the cone style would reveal. The cone style allows the car to rotate in the corner (good thing for auto-X) while the torsen would put all the power down. Each has an advantage and a disadvantage. Johnny posts a question: Is that car in the commercial Victors?. That's Red!! The way it happened was PMA prepared an XN6 to look like the V6 (STX? I forget) but when it hit the ramp it landed squarely in the center of the bed and distroyed the set. The Stunt driver (Buzz Dyer, I think) asked for something more powerful and PMA said "well the ad is for the V6 so let's use the V6". But when that car hit the ramp it flew by the camera and nose-down 45 degree angle. Not very pretty. The driver asks PMA "what else have you got?? PMA says "ah........we got turbos?. When the driver hit the ramp this time, Red flew over the bed alright, but it flew by allot higher than they anticipated and nearly went out the back of the airplane hanger that they were shooting in. Thus, when I bought Red, it had 16 miles on it and about 35 feet of flight time. The car was bent at the A pillars and the C pillars, the oil pan was completely flattened and both the side mirrors were knocked off. Damages notwithstanding, all we (my partner Tom Hughes) did was to put the cage (AutoPower in San Diego) in it with the safety equipment and put the mirrors back on. In otherwords, our first race at Riverside, it still had a flattened oil pan (hard to hurt that oil pump, however) and the tub has never straightened. I notice it squeeks and rattles more than other 505's but hay. Ask August, it's still pretty good. I think Victor's story of that Peugeot needs to be a magazine! I'm betting that the numbers of racers from SSB in the late 80's still driving their race car pretty much leaves Victor standing alone beside red! I also have to agree that these cars LOVE being driven hard. I bought a gorgeous 86' 505 Turbo in 92' and the owner just wanted to be rid of it. To him it was a white elephant that cost him a fortune in repairs. I drove this car HARD, and it was the most reliable car I've ever had. Car went to VA ('cause my brother needed a car) and when he gave me a minty rust free GL-Turbo 5-sp a couple years later, I ended up having to swap the motor out of my old car into the GL Turbo so I could get home (Exhaust valve chipped resulting in 0 compression in #3 on his car). Ended up driving from VA to Regina SK at 80 miles an hour for 40 hours! (And the engine sat in the car for months before being fired up and engine swapped!) I've autocrossed the car for 3 years, and each time I ran the car would just PURR after the event. Car has been parked for the last 12 months or so as she started to need some TLC and it just broke my heart to keep driving it when it needed to be sorted out. I've been planning it's restification since I owned the first 505 Turbo back in 92' - and now I'm finally in a place where I can start to make things happen with it. With Victor around - it's going to be REALLY hard not to cage it and do some road racing with it... Again Victor - it's a pleasure to have you on the board. Big thanks to August for making the introduction too! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted December 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 Ask August, it's still pretty good. you got that straight! i still have a hard time understanding how the engine currently in the car was built FOR the 87 runoffs (right Victor?), and it's still running sooo strong, after all those miles, after all these years. excellent power, super smooth, no cracked heads, no spun #3 rod bearings, no smoke (that i saw). that is absolutely kick ass! the rest of the car is in great condition too, especially considering how much use its got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 The best compliment I've ever gotten was one of the other club members used to bring his elderly father. After one of my more spirited runs (3 second off of FTD on crappy 195-60 Goodyear GSA's) he came up to me and shook my hand. He said he liked to come to see me drive my sedan to show all the young guys in sports cars what good driving and a good car can do... When I stopped running the turbo - he actually gave me heck - but he understood when I told him why. As for not understanding - that's been my entire Peugeot owning experience in a nut shell. My Peugeot's never got any respect until I turned a wrecked 505 STI (XN6) into a dirt/ice racer with two other club members. We had a blast with this car and the guys couldn't believe how good this car was for soaking up the bumps, and putting it's power down with the LSD IRS. They still don't understand the addiction - but I get less berating! I currently have a long list of modifications lined up, so it should be quite a potent sleeper once done. I've got an absolute TON of things that I want to do - so this really will be a complete overhaul of virtually all systems and components - with a lot of changes and fabrication - but only subtle changes that will only really be noticed by someone who knows Peugeot. The most obvious however will be the staggered 16" and 17" wheels that I'll be mounting. Hopefully the rest will be subtle modifications to modernize the car into something that competes with ANYTHING made in the last 5 years. (I want to compete with M3's I've got some decent race/rally experience and I'm putting that knowledge and passion to the test by making this 86' sedan the most potent car I can. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSB Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 You'll like this one. After the '87 Runoff Championship (actually on the podeum) I asked the defending National Champion if he now knew how to spell Peugeot now. He said "Ya, F.A.S.T Did you ever race Lake Fallon (Phallen?). They had Ice Racing Enduros. I always thought that would have to be allot of fun. (Except when the track wore through) Different wheels and tyres would be a real prize. 16's & 17's ? Must have allot of off set, huh?. We were allowed to race 225/60-15's but they wouldn't clear the front struts therefore we ran 215/60-15's. After Red was done racing I made two 1/4" spacers and now have the 225/60-15's. The problem is power oversteer. Before the spacers the car just flat hooked out of the corners. Now it finishes the turns in a rather dramatic power slide. I wonder what the offset change your planning is going to produce? Like you I look forward to BMW/Porsche/Alfa Romao/anybody else's owners Club track days. Even if I get beat, there will be allot schrapnel behind me. The best compliment I've ever gotten was one of the other club members used to bring his elderly father. After one of my more spirited runs (3 second off of FTD on crappy 195-60 Goodyear GSA's) he came up to me and shook my hand. He said he liked to come to see me drive my sedan to show all the young guys in sports cars what good driving and a good car can do... When I stopped running the turbo - he actually gave me heck - but he understood when I told him why. As for not understanding - that's been my entire Peugeot owning experience in a nut shell. My Peugeot's never got any respect until I turned a wrecked 505 STI (XN6) into a dirt/ice racer with two other club members. We had a blast with this car and the guys couldn't believe how good this car was for soaking up the bumps, and putting it's power down with the LSD IRS. They still don't understand the addiction - but I get less berating! I currently have a long list of modifications lined up, so it should be quite a potent sleeper once done. I've got an absolute TON of things that I want to do - so this really will be a complete overhaul of virtually all systems and components - with a lot of changes and fabrication - but only subtle changes that will only really be noticed by someone who knows Peugeot. The most obvious however will be the staggered 16" and 17" wheels that I'll be mounting. Hopefully the rest will be subtle modifications to modernize the car into something that competes with ANYTHING made in the last 5 years. (I want to compete with M3's I've got some decent race/rally experience and I'm putting that knowledge and passion to the test by making this 86' sedan the most potent car I can. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 A good friend of mine is a suspension engineer - works for Polaris now, but he did a stint at GM, and at Ford Austrailia... He's a very bright guy - so I got him to evaluate what I have to work with and he made some suggestions to compensate for the wheels and tires I plan on using. It's all an experiment - and my goal is to keep the balance and feel - just up it to modern levels. Current plan is to run 16x7.5" on the front, and 17x8.5's on the back. I'm also changing the geometry of the suspension and the mounting points of the steering rack (at his suggestion) to see what effects it has. I'm not going to have any breakthroughs unless I really step out of the box with some of the things i want to do - so it'll be fun to see what I end up building. If all else fails I just return it to stock... Sadly I live in a pretty remote place - so I'm not close to any cool tracks, but we make do with cool events. Dirt, ice, pavement and TSD rallies are what we do mostly - and that's a variety that that most clubs don't even come close to doing. When I ran the 505 Turbo - it wasn't very well suited for tight slaloms - so to compensate for the turbo lag I'd have to stay at WOT as much as possible - and that spells lurid powerslides everywhere! I'd simply go through gates and slaloms with the rear tires spinning as it was so easy to lose traction, and so balanced to keep on the edge. I'd usually go super hard and spinout lots learning the course and the limits of the tricky corners - then tie it all up with a clean third run. Worked well when I nailed the third run and I'd usually come DANGEROUSLY close to FTD - and I'd beat a whole whack load of other cars. I figure with better off boost performance, a reduction in turbo lag, and some traction - the car will be quite formidable on the track. That's the plan anyway! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metako Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 Welcome Victor! Terrific videos-the ad is very funny! Great to have someone of your experience on the forum (and another brain to pick lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSB Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Thanks, I'm very glad to have found ya'll (have to talk like that 'cause I'm in Miami right now)(actually, I should talk Cuban, I guess). It appears some have more experience at modifying the "T" type than I do. My deal was getting 10/10ths out of what it already was. One thing that I've found is that often there was not a component failure as there was a connector failure. My air flow meter, throttle position switch, closed throttle switch and temp sender all malfunctioned because of the connection (not the part). The a/c computer got wet from the windshield seal leaking (doesn't rain much in Los Angeles and I rarely use water to clean the car with - California Duster & Pledge furniture polish with a terry cloth towel - doesn't work as well on clear coated paint jobs). The issues such as #3 rod bearing, piston problems and cracked heads I'd suspect relate to running more boost than it was designed for. (I wonder if the N9TEA has different pistons or possibly rods than the N9TE). While I was racing Red I found that even though an overboosted car was allot more powerful, it was only for a short time before that heat build-up would sent the ignition timing back to yesterday. I'm going to try to get Jim Kelly, former Service Director @ PMA, to join in the forum. He's pretty much analog though. He now lives in Kingman, Arizona. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Hi also from Cold and Rainy Finland! Nice to have experienced (race also) person here. I value this kind things high! About engine parts, in all years parts in has been same. Same materials etc... Some minor changes has done (not always improving durability) like compression changes and exhaust valves from -> 86 onwards was replaced normal steal (in -85 those was filled with sodium) at least in european versions. But materials etc has been same in pistons and con.rods. Regards Veli-Matti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSB Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Hay there cold & rainy - hot & muggy here (I'll be home next week where I'll be hot & dry) It' just that somewhere in my memory bank are rods with oil squirters (to cool the bottom side of the piston) and rods without (or was it just plugging the holes?). As far as power was concerned, one didn't want the pistons to have to move the oil out of the way. As far as longevity was concerned keeping the pistons cool was a good thing. The most typical piston failure was the ring land area (where the rings ride) where they would widen out. Compression would be ok but leak down would not be ok. For racing, I just kept replacing the pistons every year (that was over 100,000 miles ago). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSB Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 I ran across an article in Grass Roots Motorsports (April 2004) where a question was posed regarding changing wheel off-sets. I'll just highlight the disadvantages, to wit: "The main disadvantage of using wheel with less positive offset than originals is that this increases the leverage the wheels & tires have on the suspension in every direction. This effectively reduces the suspernsion's spring rates, shifts the wheel bearing loads, and increases the vehicles to wheel inbalance while increasing the probability of tramlining and more rapid tire wear." "Another disadvantage is that the increase in leverage generated by significantly different than stock wheel offsets (and increased scrub radii) will place extra load against rubber suspension bushings." As the strut is the front strut is the limiter in wheel width, less offet is the only direction you could go, with the resulting complication as mentioned above. All of the above may be expected by your friend so like you say, "it's an experiment". Personally, I made two 1/4" spacers so I could fit the 225/60-15's in there and now it power oversteers much more than before. It is fun though and it keeps the traffic away from me when I'm driving in the rain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Yeah - I've done my homework on this as well - and I'm prepared for the worst - but I'm doing a couple things to counteract the changes. My buddy (the suspension engineer) suggested lowering the steering rack, using stiffer and adjustable roll bars, as well as playing with camber to see if I can dial some of those properties out. I also have the later 88 set up with the separate hub and strut assembly that I can modify as needed. I've also looked at what it would take to alter the 1 piece strut/hub to see if I can tweek the geometry so that the center of the contact patch of my 16x7.5's is the pivot point with the suspension - and that would have to be done at the end after all other avenues have been investigated. (Combining the two systems?) I've got spare struts, so cutting and tig welding them back up might be a final experiment to get it dialed in. I'm also going to be tweaking the rear suspension as well - with lowering the cross member, stiffer adjustible roll bar, and the much bigger wheels and tires. The other unknown factor is the tires themselves. There's no doubt that the car has impeccible balance, but it just does't have enough tire to cope with the power - so although I can drive very fast, the limits of the tires mean I can't progress very far. Plan so far is to use 225's fr, and 235's rear - but we'll see how balanced it is. I can also run 235's front and rear if that helps improve balance - but I think the 225's will give a much better turn response with straighter side walls... Again - trial and error. I realise it sounds like pure insanity - but since I was a kid I wanted to be an automotive engineer - so since that didn't work out, I want to throw my creative and technical abilities at the 505 to see just how good I can make it thinking out of the box and makings some fundemental changes. The 505 is cheap, and potent, and I've got a TON of parts to play with - so it's just a fun engineering project that isn't going to break the bank. If I succeed - then it will be a formidiable car on the street and the track, if I fail, I return to stock and it's still a formidable car on the street and the track! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSB Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Hooray for insanity. If Peugeot hadn't been thinking outside the box, we wouldn't be here either. You know there was allot of development on the Datsun 510 in this regard (also a strut front with IRS rear.). I wonder if the BRE stuff might be useful. As most of the guys I started racing were on Mulholland drive with their 510's I might be able to find info on them. Just a thought. Yeah - I've done my homework on this as well - and I'm prepared for the worst - but I'm doing a couple things to counteract the changes. My buddy (the suspension engineer) suggested lowering the steering rack, using stiffer and adjustable roll bars, as well as playing with camber to see if I can dial some of those properties out. I also have the later 88 set up with the separate hub and strut assembly that I can modify as needed. I've also looked at what it would take to alter the 1 piece strut/hub to see if I can tweek the geometry so that the center of the contact patch of my 16x7.5's is the pivot point with the suspension - and that would have to be done at the end after all other avenues have been investigated. (Combining the two systems?) I've got spare struts, so cutting and tig welding them back up might be a final experiment to get it dialed in. The other unknown factor is the tires themselves. There's no doubt that the car has impeccible balance, but it just does't have enough tire to cope with the power - so although I can drive very fast, the limits of the tires mean I can't progress very far. I realise it sounds like pure insanity - but since I was a kid I wanted to be an automotive engineer - so since that didn't work out, I want to throw my creative and technical abilities at the 505 to see just how good I can make it thinking out of the box and makings some fundemental changes. The 505 is cheap, and potent, and I've got a TON of parts to play with - so it's just a fun engineering project that isn't going to break the bank. If I succeed - then it will be a formidiable car on the street and the track, if I fail, I return to stock and it's still a formidable car on the street and the track! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Hay there cold & rainy - hot & muggy here (I'll be home next week where I'll be hot & dry) It' just that somewhere in my memory bank are rods with oil squirters (to cool the bottom side of the piston) and rods without (or was it just plugging the holes?). As far as power was concerned, one didn't want the pistons to have to move the oil out of the way. As far as longevity was concerned keeping the pistons cool was a good thing. The most typical piston failure was the ring land area (where the rings ride) where they would widen out. Compression would be ok but leak down would not be ok. For racing, I just kept replacing the pistons every year (that was over 100,000 miles ago). Thats correct, but in some reason there was no clear year mark from which engines have them I have opened many from 84 -> 88 engines and only one (-86 danielson kit engine) did have those spray holes. Any way those can be re-made and also bearings can be drilled. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted April 8, 2007 Report Share Posted April 8, 2007 hah, 510's. Cool cars, but if you've ever been in one, it feels very weird (as if your sittin on the ground) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.