Bean Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Hey guys, I found some dimensions on the Ford 2.3L Turbo pistons... 0.9122" (23.16988 mm) Pin size, Piston has a compression height of 1.580" (40.132mm), and the std bore of 96mm. Piston compression height is the distance from the center of the pin to the top of the piston edge. Best part is that 4 new pistons with rings would be less than $200 CDN. I haven't measured the Peugeot pistons, and the manuals are in the garage so I was going to wait till tomorrow to verify. Feel free to comment though since I won't get out to verify till late tomorrow. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 do you know how these ford pistons would compare to the stock pistons? durability, quality, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted June 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 The ones I found I have no idea about - just a cheap discounter online that I found - but he provided me with the dimensions I needed to see if they will work with no change in deck height. (We'll need to confirm the dimensions I recieved - but it does sound promising!) I made some fairly accurate measurements with a micrometer and the pin dia was 23.95mm, with a compression height of 40.75mm Holy moly this just might work! Block would likely have to be decked less than a 1 mm, and if the piston pin is machined for the Pug pin a bit offset there would likely not need to be any decking at all. Now I should mention that stock 2.3L pistons were forged Mahle pistons, and you can get any number of after market pistons made for the engine - like Keith Black for instance. Needless to say the aftermarket in North America has a number of different options for the Ford 2.3T, so this might be the cheapest way possible for us to get into replacement pistons - AND a healthy increase in displacment. Not sure how it will affect the dynamics of the engine bumping the bore up to 96mm with no loss of stroke - but it sounds like a fun experiment! Rabin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunktionFET Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 That would be a 4.3mm increase in bore. If the block can even reliably handle that, this would probably warrant some kind of head/valve work to compensate... That or maybe the D cam might be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted June 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 V-M used 96mm Turbo Volvo pistons in one of his engines, but the pin placement meant the block had to be decked a lot to make it work. There didn't appear to be any issues with boring the block to fit the pistons, but the decking was an issue. I have yet to measure up the block - but from what I remember there is a lot of meat in the block. It should be able to handle the bigger bore without issue as long as you don't go crazy with boost... The only thing that I can see is being an issue is the head gasket - I'm not clear how V-M got around the 96mm bore, and what was done to the head gasket to make it work. My original plan was to use copper gaskets - but there might be better options available... Cam specs should be fine with the displacement increase - especially with forced induction, but the Dani cam should definitely be a nice upgrade - hopefully the bigger bore would beef up the low end power and it wouldn't be as laggy - but it would make even more power when it came up on cam. Still bench racing - but it sounds fairly promising still. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Actually I decket block it only 1.4mm and that was not needed at all (that was a mistake). And original gasket is on place and I didn't make any modifications for it. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunktionFET Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 That would bump the old N9Txx up to about 2.4 liters... Assuming the cam is up to the task of filling the new cylinders and the compression ratio was kept proportionally close to what it is now, an N9TEA would be capable of near 200hp with no other modifications. The potential for reliable power is also increased because the surface area of the combustion chamber is higher. If this kind of modification works, it would be a great way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted June 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Thanks for clarifying V-M. I was just going from memory - and the troubles you had with the timing was why I made the comment of the block having to be decked to much... I'm guessing if you didn't deck it, the compression ratio would have just been lower which would have favored using more boost... I'd want to make sure I have as close to 8.5:1 as I can get, as I don't want a peak power motor, but rather one with the fattest, flattest torque curve possible... I have a parts engine that had blown the lands on two of the pistons and scratched the crap out of the cylinders - so it's the perfect candidate for this experiment. Pistons are cheap enough too! - So now I just need to get a torque plate made up so that they can machine the block accurately. Now to see if there's a way to get some after market bearings for this monster motor... V-M - as for the head gasket on the over-bored engine - was the cylinder holes on the gasket still bigger than the 96mm bore? I was guessing that they would be smaller and you might have issues sealing the compression - if that wasn't a worry then this would be fairly easy to do... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 My machinery shop didn't use torgue plate, we did discuss about it but machinery specialist (have done this job 40 years also for racing engines) sayed at this block is like solid iron and Does not need any torgue plate but needed to take 0.5mm at the time from block untill reached this ~92mm -> 96mm. I calculated at currently it's around 8,7:1 and with out this mistake (where I actually wanted) it was planned around 8 (to have this 1.5bar boost) but now I think it will be max 1.2bar Gasket is just it's limits, in one corner it's on 0.5mm on combustion camber side so it's potential to blow when pressure is increased. I have now driven only 50km and only with 0.5bar boost. I just reserved dyno time (again) so we will see what will be happened in couple of weeks V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted June 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 I think I'm going to have to see what's available for pistons then - and I'll have to start shopping around for a good machine shop. I'll also have to see what kind of options are available for head gasket options. I've never checked the bearings on the engine I have, so hopefully they still are OK and I can just re-use them. I'd like to replace with new - but we'll see how they look when I disassemble. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 So I was checking out the usual peugeot searches on e-bay and I decided to check out 2.3L turbo pistons to see what's up... Pistons I found it with an hour to go so I figured I'd toss in a bid. Looks like I have a decent winter project this winter... It's also cool that it comes with the rods as it will be an interesting comparison to the pug rods. I've been told stock ford bottom ends easily handled 450 HP - so the pistons should be fine for my use. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 So I was checking out the usual peugeot searches on e-bay and I decided to check out 2.3L turbo pistons to see what's up... Pistons I found it with an hour to go so I figured I'd toss in a bid. Looks like I have a decent winter project this winter... It's also cool that it comes with the rods as it will be an interesting comparison to the pug rods. I've been told stock ford bottom ends easily handled 450 HP - so the pistons should be fine for my use. Rabin And if youre lucky u can use also rods V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 I don't want to get too excited - but even just being able to use the pistons on the Pug rods is a big jump (With minor machining hopefully). My ultimate hope is exactly that - the Ford rods fit with some turning of the crank, and the N9TE motor just became one of the cheapest performance builds ever! I'm pretty stoked about a possible 2.4L upgrade, and the potential for even more bottom end power. Should make it a very potent little motor for not a whole lot of $$$. My plan is to now get the pistons and balance/refurbish. Once they check out as good, then I'll strip the motor down and send it to get machined. A local engine builder gives a good deal on machine work if he doesn't have any time limits... Might take a few months, but I can get the block bored to spec and my spare cylinder head redone as well (5 angle valve seat grind, knurled guides, and new valve seals is all it needs). I now need to figure what to do for the head gasket, and if I want to still use turbo Dodge electronics to run the beast. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 jesus, score on the pistons bean! hahahah its really cool seeing this, i hope to see this work out, and work well. any idea on compression? is it possible to measure with just the size of the pistons / rod, or is there some other technique that's normally used to measure compression. compression gauge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 I'll be able to figure out the exact compression ratio by calculating the volume of the chamber and the dish of the piston, and then the new volume of the cylinder - that ratio should give me the compression ratio. I'm thinking of just using play doe to measure a known volume, weigh it, then pack it into the chamber and the dish to figure out it's volume... Should work fine and be reasonably accurate. Piston looks very similar to the Pug pistons except for the partially filled in dish which I'm hoping works fine with the valves and such since I don't want to remove material unless I have to. I did some searching and I've renewed the interest with doing copper gaskets. Combined with stainless wire for "o-ringing" it seems to be the best way to go for a custom head gasket. I just need to figure out what thickness to get, and what sealer to use. Clark Copper Head Gasket's seem to be highly recommended, but they have no website. They are pretty close though (MN) so I'm hoping to give them a call once I figure out some of the details... There's also another place called Flatout that does a rubber coated copper gasket that's supposed to be quite good - I've got an e-mail to them to see what a 1 off will cost, and what they need to do it. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Lindroos Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Might take a few months, but I can get the block bored to spec and my spare cylinder head redone as well (5 angle valve seat grind, knurled guides, and new valve seals is all it needs). How about using some new valve guides instead because they are readily available? Here's the message I wrote to Peugeot-L in September 2005: There might be several sources in US but ordered them from http://www.sivalves.com/ about a year ago when I couldn't get them from Europe. Their service was excellent and they shipped to Finland. http://www.sivalves.com/ocforeign_vguides_peug.html Guide: Peugeot: 2.2 N9TE Turbo IE Std 0.3546" I.D.x 0.5910" O.D. x 2.205" Long VG 5332/00 Here are some info and pictures: http://peugeot505.info/index.php?spgmGal=P...s&id=images Let the machine shop take off the old guides and they'll tell you what's the outside diameter of new guides they need. At least the guy in a machine shop I used said that he'll need to remove the old guides first and then measure the old guides and holes. So he did and told me the correct outside diameter and I ordered the new guides from SI Valves. They should be able to come up with a .002 thousandth's oversize on the outside diameter if needed. My old guides came off easily and the outside diameter of them was about 14,98 mm, that's about 0,5898", so the machine shop had to grind them a bit to make them a perfect fit. I only replaced the exhaust guides because the intake guides were still in a good shape. --- So, the operation really was quite easy and didn't cost too much. I paid the machine shop 163 euros (~200 USD) for machining the cylinder head, valves and stems and replacing the exhaust guides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Thanks Toni! I remember talk of the guides being REALLY hard to get out (As well as not available) - but if they're readily available then I'll definitely replace them with new. If the pistons check out - they saved me a heck of a lot of money and I'm more than happy to put it back into the motor... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Lindroos Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Contact SI Valves and ask the current stock situation. They were also quite cheap, 6,99 USD each and I think the material (manganese-bronze) should be good also. When I searched for the guides I also found some regular iron guides (used in non-Turbo versions of this engine, I think) but manganese-bronze is better, AFAIK. I also asked from http://erikssonindustries.com/ but they never answered to my e-mail. I think they have a good reputation for welding N9T heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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