Metako Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Sounds good. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted June 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Small update... I finally got the Devcon liquid alloy. Long story - but the jist of it was that the original place "had no record" of the order after two months of waiting. I complained to Devcon who gave me another supplier name and they had it to me in 1 week - sadly they didn't compensate me in any way... buggers. Anyway - I have a pound of this stuff to fill both wheel bolt circles (under the lug cover) and I may not have enough to fill the void completely, so I'm looking at ways to fill the space first, then use the liquid alloy to finish the look. I'm thinking of foam of some sort - but I'll have to plan it out before I use this stuff. In hindsight I should have just bought some new aftermarket BMW wheels - but this is the road I chose so I'll stay the course. I'm convinced the wheels will look amazing on the car - and after this much work they better be! Later... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metako Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 good to hear of the progress Rabin. How 'bout some pics of the wheels? I've been looking at BMW wheels lately and I must say I like them. Handsome in a functional, Teutonic sort of way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted November 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Holy crap this an old post - and I'm still working on it... Slowly... I'm now off on 6 months paternity leave looking after my daughter - so that allows me a little more time to research ideas when she's sleeping since I can't leave her alone to do any of the work... But I made some cool progress that should allow a better solution - albeit at a higher cost - but it allows less reliance on Pug specific parts... So now instead of redrilling the front Peugeot hubs, I'm wanting to design alloy sleeves that press fit on the Peugeot spindle that will allow the 5 series bearing and hub assembly to be fitted. This allows me to space the BMW hub on the spindle such that no spacers are used to mount the wheel, and there's no machining of stock parts so it can be removed and returned to stock should the need arise - or if you wanted to move it to another car... Now while I was at it - seemed obvious that if I'm using the BMW hubs - why not a big brake upgrade? So I did more research and found that that I can use 30mm thick 324 mm BMW 840 disks... (Biggest that will fit under a 16" wheel)... The rears are vented 22mm thick units the same size - so it should retain proper brake balance... (840 is a 4000 lb car - so on the 3000 lb car they should be fantastic. Stock are 275mm disks - and much thinner) So now I've got to measure up the front and rear calipers to figure out the volume of each caliper so that I can spec some Wilwood dynalite (or similar) 4 pot calipers. Initially my plan was to use BMW calipers - but while BMW's are known for having very good brakes (they use the single floating calipers like the Peugeot!) they are known to be suseptable to heat (fade) if pushed hard... The cost of USED ones that fit the big disks are the same as new 4-pot wilwoods - so I'm going with properly sized Wilwoods so I can retain the master cylinder. Hopefully... If I can't get calipers sized to work - then I'll size appropriately and look for a master that will push what I need... So now I'm looking for deals on the front 5 series hubs, (hoping to get them in Dec) and once I'm certain they'll work I'll buy the disks and calipers to make it work. If all goes to plan, the alloy adapters to fit the 5 series hubs should be an easy upgrade for anyone else, and the stock 5 series vented 286 mm disks should work with our calipers for an easy upgrade to 5 series wheels... I also have the newer style front Peugeot spindles that have a similar sealed bearing hub - so if there's enough interest I can see what it will take to fit BMW hubs instead of the Pug ones... (Might be even easier!) Cost so far: $180 = 2x$90 - hub with sealed bearings $280 = for new slotted disks (KVR deal that's on now) $500 = 4x$125 willwood 4 pot calipers $100 = 2x$100 alloy adapters $100 = redrill the rear flanges I won't count my time - or shipping... I'm also hoping the brackets to mount the calipers will be easy enought o make out of plate alloy. So for just over a grand it should allow me to do a big brake upgrade on all for corners, with the 5x120 bolt pattern to run the BMW wheels... Now I just gotta get the hubs to fit! Otherwise I'm back to drilling the pug hubs and keeping the stock brakes... So while there's a crap load of other stuff on the car to do - it does fit my goal of the ultimate 505, and the car is running OK, and the suspension is decent, I'm hoping this upgrade gives the car the legs to run a race school at the race track next summer... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metako Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Great work Bean! Let me get this straight-the sleeves go over the sprindles and then the BMW hubs ride on the alloy sleeves? Will alloy be hard enough??? Or am I getting it wrong? And big congrats on the baby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 I would have thought alloy would be too soft too till my buddy had his machinist make a set of alloy hubs/disk carriers for his Lotus Europa patterned after his Malleck race car... Hubs are internally vented, and they have flanges for mounting racing disks to them. Internally they take the stock pressed in steel races and bearings - and since those hold up in racing, I'm positive they'll hold up here since they're being used in a very well supported way (press fit on spindle, press fit to bearing), since the BMW bearing has a large inner surface area to distribute loads. (Single sealed bearing VS to smaller inner and outer bearings.) The alloy will also be a great heat dissapater for the bearing if it starts to get hot... My goal is to test it out and if all goes well in assembly, I'm hoping to be able to test it a 3 day racing school at a race track I was at last year. I'll be an ideal place to shake down the wheel upgrade and the brakes - and it's on a track so if there's any issues they'll be found out in a safe manner. If during assembly the alloy seems to soft - I'll get the pattern done in alloy for test fitting and getting the dimensions spot oon for wheel fitment and then get the sleeves machined out of cromoly... My intention is to keep weight down as the larger disks are adding a whack of unsprung weight, but with the Wilwood calipers, lighter BMW hubs I'm hoping it won't be much of an increase at all. Hard part will be to design the sleeve so that it uses the spindle bolt to hold it all together - so if there isn't enough material for it to be strong - then it'll have to be done in steel. Rabin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metako Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 If you can get that to work that would be excellent. I for one would be interested in buying a set from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSB Posted December 21, 2007 Report Share Posted December 21, 2007 WoW Did ya get to the track yet ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted December 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 LOL - nope - plan is to get it on the track for ththe beginning of May for a driving school to get my race license. I've done some more planning, and the sleeves will definitely be out of steel as I thought the spindle was smaller than it was... So the sleeve I have planned to use the BMW hub won't be thick at all - so it'll need the strength of steel to hold the hub, and the weight will be negligible since it's going to be fairly thin. I've worked out a deal and traded some 14" Michelin tires for shop time to get the first set made. Once the prototypes are done and I give them 3 days of track school for testing (and they survive!), then they should be easy to reproduce for others. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fitoiro Posted December 28, 2007 Report Share Posted December 28, 2007 i would be interested in obtaining the upgrade. sound very interesting. kepp us posted, hopung to hear from you soon, manny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted December 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2007 Thanks Manny... I'll be starting in earnest in January, with getting the perches of a spare set of struts machined off and the spindle used for a pattern for the sleeves. Once I get the BMW hubs I should be able to make decent progress for sure - and will keep you posted. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Update on this project... I've got 540i sealed bearing hubs on their way, along with 540i 302mm vented front rotors. (28mm thick!) Decided the brake balance front and rear would be upset too much running the 324mm rotors (50mm larger than the rear) so I decided that the 302's would be PLENTY of rotor for a 2900 lb car. They stop the 540i very well, as well as my 3800 lb V70R - plus the 324's would be a fair bit heavier. My initial thoughts with running the 540 hubs was that I can mount them farther outwards to get clearance of the strut to avoid the spacer... The more I looked at it though - it would destroy the handling as the scrub radius of the tire would be horrible! I mentioned a guy in Seattle that was building high end Bilstein struts for rally cars, and one of his mods is to separate the one piece struts at the hub, and make it a two piece design with an offset nub like they used on older Ford rally cars. Check it out: This is version 1 This is the new version they did up: So I gave him a call to price out those units. Turns out he's a Peugeot fan from way back (loved his 404), and he's going to bug one of his buddies that just bought an old 505 TD sedan to take a look at the strut. In the mean time I'm going to give him the current strut tube diameter, as well as the internal dimensions of the strut rod and such. My hope is that the tube that passes through the hub assembly isn't used and that we can simply shorten and seal the tube to fit the offset collar. So I'll be doing the offset conversion - but with the stock strut internals in a coil over tube... If this works - then I can fit my 7.5" wide wheel with no problems, wheel offset should then work VERY close to stock geometry and the contact patch should be damn close to rotating about it's centre as it's supposed too... Once I get the 540 bearing hubs I can see about fitting them to the spindle, but if it turns out to be too hard I'll go back to re-drilling the stock hubs since I should now have strut clearance... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 holy crap dude! if you can get some aftermarket suspension bits, sign me up!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Well - I'm going in on the cheap with stock strut internals (the glorious 8 valve units that hardly have an equal in the aftermarket), with custom threaded coil over tubes and springs... If you want custom Bilstein 40mm struts built - he can do that too - but likely ~$500 each. With the way I'm planning it - I can upgrade to the fancy custom units later if I want since they'll mount the exact same way. I talked to him for a good hour, and it looks like he'll just be providing me the bits to build my own, if he can get what he needs from looking at the 505 there, and the dimensions I can provide to him. That'll save a whack on shipping and still allow me enough leeway to build them to the ideal dimensions for the chassis. (I have connections through buddies and such, so any additional machining and welding won't be a problem.) Hopefully the Pug dimensions are close to the Volvo's and the existing parts fit without an issue. So the mod should be easy on the budget with me doing the assembly. I've got both an ABS style front suspension (standard hub and strut), and the non ABS 1 pc hub/strut assembly - so I'll be looking at both to figure out what is going to be best use, or even a combination of the two.(IE like the one piece lower a-arm with the modded 1 pc hub/strut units.). The deciding factor is the mounting of the 540 hubs though - whatever is easiest wins. It's definitely a full meal deal though - Suspension, wheels, and brakes have to get done all at once for this to work and be cost effective. Lots of changes so the planning for it has to be really thorough. Payoff should be fantastic if it comes together. BTW - if I feel the brakes need to be better for the track - the 302's will move to the rear along with smaller 4 piston calipers, and the 324's can be fitted to the front. I can't imagine needing more brakes than that even on a race track Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 The 540i brake disks and hub assemblies arrived. Disks are MASSIVE - and weigh a god aweful amount, but I bolted it all up to the Racin Dynamics wheel and it looks awesome. Took all the parts to my buddy, and the adapters to fit the hubs to the existing spindles are being machined as I type. Should be able to have the hubs and disks mounted to the strut sometime next week so I can provide pics during the assembly process. If this works - I'll need to find a nice 2-pc rotor set up for it, or look at maching it down so that the rotor weighs less! BMW hub is far less than the stock 505 hub carrier without it's bearings - and the adapter isn't going to weigh much at all - so if I can get the weight out of the rotor the whole assembly will be less unsprung weight - as is it's probably 10-15 lbs heavier - just from the rotor! (So glad I didn't go with the 324mm rotor!) I've got to strip my spare set of struts so that they can machine off the rusted perches, and then get it ready for the coil over conversion. It looks like I won't need to do the offset thingies either for now too - as the spacing looks like I designed it to work or something! So now I gotta get busy and spec the caliper I need to use, and then look at a caliper bracket to mount it. Gotta say - this is going to be one VERY trick set up! If I get it the way I want it - braking power should be INSANE! (And all for a little more than a set of OEM ABS rotors!) BTW - did some measuring and this set up will NOT work on the ABS front design. The hub should work quite nicely, but the disk definitely wont fit. So if it was done you'd have to run different disks on the hub... A possibility would be to run BMW rear disks... But not the fronts. (7 series rear run a vented 283mm disk very much like the ABS ones - so that might be a possibility) I'll take apart my spare suspension to make sure the hub fits - and if it can be made to work - then it would be a real good upgrade possibility.) Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N9TE Posted April 19, 2008 Report Share Posted April 19, 2008 Outstanding news Rabin. Do a good final write up when all is done and I'm sure August will put it up in the resource section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 if you really pull this off rabin, i will be one of your followers -for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89peugeotV6 Posted May 4, 2008 Report Share Posted May 4, 2008 Hello I have been thinking about doing the same thing. Since the bmw 5 series is the largest diamiter bolt pattern that you can find wheels for, but I am lacking the place to do it. If you do compleat this I WILL buy a set of hubs from you I would like to go with 17 inch on the front and 18s on the rear with a deep dish wheel on the rear similar to the M5's. I would also like to lower the car a little but not too much. With some stiffer springs but I don't know if I should replace the peugeot struts and shocks with something else. I still want a nice ride. I have heard of custom made roll bars. I would like to completly go over the entire suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted May 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2008 The only thing preventing me from figuring out what's needed to do the hub mod for the newer cars is cost of the hubs themselves (~$200 + shipping, + the cost of machining) , and the fact I don't have an ABS car to see if the BMW hubs can integrate with the ABS on the Pug. The BMW hub does have a sensor ring with ridges on it, but it's horizontal while the 505 has a verticle ring. (IE: Can you even use the Pug sensor, can it be relocated and read the BMW ring, or can a BMW sensor be used??? ) My project has hit a snag in that they heated the inner race to fit the spindle while test fitting it to get it to go on easy, and now it won't come off! Old bearings you can destroy in removal - but this one is new and I need to save it... So another road block - but it's temporary and I still have my 504 now to play in while I work on the 505 Turbo... It's REALLY nice to be back into a Peugeot... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89peugeotV6 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I was planning on modifying a peugeot hub and using a small spacer to get the wheel past the center hub. Would you be able to use the peugeot hubs? As for the ABS I hate ABS so I do not have it, but I do not see why you wouldn't be able to use the BMW abs sensors, but I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted May 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 I was planning on modifying a peugeot hub and using a small spacer to get the wheel past the center hub. Would you be able to use the peugeot hubs? As for the ABS I hate ABS so I do not have it, but I do not see why you wouldn't be able to use the BMW abs sensors, but I'm not sure. You could likely just re-drill the existing hubs to the BMW bolt pattern, but I'm not sure what clearance would be needed. On the one piece struts like mine, I would have to run a spacer to clear the 7.5" wheel I have and I didn't want to use spacers. The idea to use the entire BMW struck me as the ideal solution so that's what I went with. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89peugeotV6 Posted May 14, 2008 Report Share Posted May 14, 2008 I understand why you do not like spacers, I'm not thrilled about them either. I am currently running 1/4 inch spacers on my 89 V6 non abs car with out any trouble yet... I had to use the spacer since the tires I ordered rub just slightly. 225/50's are a tight fit I had them on another peugeot before with no problems, but the new Falkens must be a bit wider. Does BMW have any wheels that are narrower in the larger sizes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted May 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2008 Does BMW have any wheels that are narrower in the larger sizes? I think there are some 16" OEM wheels that are 7" wide and they have the perfect offset for our cars, but with the latest trends for bigger and bigger rims, you'll be hard pressed to find some that are 7" wide I think. Most are at least 7.5" from what I found. One thing about the BMW wheels is that they're hub centric - meaning the hub has a machined lip the wheels rest on which provides the location as well as the strength to the mount - the wheel bolts are there to just hold the wheel onto the ring. That was yet another reason I went with the complete BMW hubs... Thing holding up progress still - is trying to get the new hubs off the machined spindle adapters. Tolerances were too tight, and they heated the race to fit the spindle. Now I gotta take it off to make some corrections and it won't come off without possibly damaging the bearings... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89peugeotV6 Posted May 16, 2008 Report Share Posted May 16, 2008 Try putting the whole spindle and hub in the freezer for a day or so. That will shrink everything. Take it out and apply a little heat to the race, and hopefully it will fall apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metako Posted July 14, 2008 Report Share Posted July 14, 2008 Good to hear you're still working away at the project. I find it a bit hard to picture how it will all hang together. Any chance of a rough sketch of the final setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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