V-M Posted March 29, 2008 Report Share Posted March 29, 2008 How thick was your plate, V-M? That was bit different shape... cause when you put bolts there those comes too far and are hitting distributor gear (if I remenber right). V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2008 I put an arrow to the edge I was referring too... Looks great though! So where are you doing this work? I'd love to have access to that kind of equipment! Rabin It's where that edge is that edge that I machined off half of the radius. I don't know how smoothing out it could be done though since it's a manual lathe I'm using and it's very trycky to do radiused corners with it. I'm doing the work in a workshop in my school that I have access to basicly 24/7, it's very fun to make stuff. That was bit different shape... cause when you put bolts there those comes too far and are hitting distributor gear (if I remenber right). V-M Yeah, I've seen the pictures of your adjustable sprocket. I made mine 4.5mm thick, I hope the bolt's doesn't hit the distributor gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 I'd just blend that edge into the radius by hand. You'd just want to take away the edge so that the air has a better chance of hugging the radius on the way into the turbo. Anything to remove causes of turbulence... Really likely it's insignificant - but like you - I'd just do it because that's the kind of attention to detail I like doing. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 1 step forward, 3 steps backward.... I found out what the problem with the alternator was. One diode (or more) was broken, so I took a volvo 240/740 alternator (found in the trunk of the 505 btw) put new brushes in it, and it worked great. I also fixed the ignition cable and installed an used accordion hose. I fired the engine up and got the car out of the garage, and I see a HUGE white cloud behind me and I'm thinking -"this can't be good". Sooo, I figured the headgasket must be broken, or the head is cracked so I removed the head and found: -Cracks in the head. -Erosion in 3/4 pistons. So double yippeeee!! And it isn't light erosion in the pistons, its two 10x30mm elongated pits that are 3-4 mm deep in each piston! They are close to the cylinder wall, and follows the shape of the slots for the valves. I don't have any pictures, as my camera ran out of battery but I will take some pictures of it when I get the chance. So now the plan is to get Volvo pistons and Saab rods (thanks Tama, V-M and the rest of you crazy Finnish's), get the block honed to 92 mm and get the head welded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Hmm, I'm having second thoughts about using volvo pistons, looks like I'll get way too high compression ratio if I use a std head gasket. Here are a little table of the alternatives I've found and OEM (for ref. purposes): Peugeot OEM d = 91.7mm ch = 41mm p = 24mm Volvo B21ET d = 92.0mm ch = 46 mm p = 24mm Ford Sierra/Escort Cosworth d = 92.0mm ch = 40.5mm p = 24mm VW d = 92.0mm ch = 39.6mm p = 22mm Where d is diameter, ch is compression height and p is pin diameter. I think I'll be using the VW pistons, they are forged Mahle pistons, cheap (about 250€/4) and they seem to be really strong. One guy here has used those in a Volvo B20-engine with over 500 whp! (Yes, you read right.) They could possibly be used as a replacement when rebuilding with the OEM rods, since the OEM pistons have a recess and the VW are flat, which compensates a bit for the difference in compression height. The compression rate could actually be a bit higher with these pistons, but that can always be corrected with the lathe. However, I'm thinking about using the Saab rods anyway and mill the block instead. The reason is that it would cost me less than buying new bearings for the Peugeot rods. New Peugeot bearings: 120€ New Saab bearings + rods: 40€ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Hmm, I'm having second thoughts about using volvo pistons, looks like I'll get way too high compression ratio if I use a std head gasket. Here are a little table of the alternatives I've found and OEM (for ref. purposes): Peugeot OEM d = 91.7mm ch = 41mm p = 24mm Volvo B21ET d = 92.0mm ch = 46 mm p = 24mm Ford Sierra/Escort Cosworth d = 92.0mm ch = 40.5mm p = 24mm VW d = 92.0mm ch = 39.6mm p = 22mm Where d is diameter, ch is compression height and p is pin diameter. I think I'll be using the VW pistons, they are forged Mahle pistons, cheap (about 250€/4) and they seem to be really strong. One guy here has used those in a Volvo B20-engine with over 500 whp! (Yes, you read right.) They could possibly be used as a replacement when rebuilding with the OEM rods, since the OEM pistons have a recess and the VW are flat, which compensates a bit for the difference in compression height. The compression rate could actually be a bit higher with these pistons, but that can always be corrected with the lathe. However, I'm thinking about using the Saab rods anyway and mill the block instead. The reason is that it would cost me less than buying new bearings for the Peugeot rods. New Peugeot bearings: 120€ New Saab bearings + rods: 40€ Hi Johnny, What do you mean by compression height? Is that the same as pin height? (IE the distance from the top of the piston to the center of the pin) If you can get dimensions of the Saab rods - that'd be great. I'm curious how much the crank has to get machined for them to fit. I'm still looking at using Ford 2.3 Turbo pistons, and if the crank can be offset machined for the longer 2.3 turbo rods I'd get some stroke out of it as well... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Yep, compression height = pin height. But why would it be neccessary to machine the crank? V-M says it fits directly (bearing + width). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Hmmm... Didn't realise they had the same size main bearing journals... If that's the case - shouldn't Saab bearings work with Peugeot rods? (maybe with minor maching to the rod?) Be nice if no machining is necessary for the Saab rods, but it will be necessary for the Ford rods. There are lots of options for the Ford rods - so finding something that will work that also allows a bit of stroke increase is what I'm going after. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 They are the same size, 52mm (the axle is 51.967mm) and the outer diameter is 56.019mm. The Peugeot rods have a diameter of something like 55.8-ish, so if the width is right it should be possible to machine the rods to fit the Saab-bearings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Saab bearings (same with Ford) don't fit on 505 turbo conrods... tested and measured. :-( But saab conrods and bearings fits nicely on main cam Surely those can be mached but thas not cost effectiv... V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 So what's ideal "recipe" then? Saab rods and bearings, with ?? piston, and what exactly needs machining to fit what? If we got something nailed down as a tried and true rebuild alternative for these engines that would be awesome. Just need to source something for the main bearings and the engine would be quite easily rebuildable. Be interesting to see how much it would cost to resize Pug rods to fit the Saab bearings too... (For those looking for cheaper rebuilds with stock parts.) Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Well using saab rods is much more cost effective than modifying pug one's. Nic TAMA has done this set now with 92mm Volvo pistons and saab conrods. Easy and cheap compared to pug rods and custom pistons. And those saab+volvo parts can easily take 400hp. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 That sounds really promising... But it still needs to be much more specific. Can anyone detail exactly which rods, which pistons, and what exact machining was done (if any) to get it all to work? If the main bearings are in decent shape - doing the rods and pistons would still refresh the engine nicely. (Just need to know what parts to look out for now!) Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 That's already been covered in this thread: Custom in Finland The pistons are from the turbo-version of the Volvo B21, B21ET and the Saab rods are 134mm c-c. Sooo, Saab rods + Volvo pistons = 134 + 46 = 180mm Peugeot rods + pistons = 137 + 41 = 178 mm? Damn, I didn't compare those numbers until right now.... I just remembered that V-M wrote that the pistons were 2mm over deck, which I interpeted as the block surface. Looks like the Volvo pistons are a better fit after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Got my hands on some Saab rods today and I must say that they look very nice! It looks like they are forged way better than the Peugeot ones and if they are made from similar steel they are probably stronger too. Also, they are about 100g lighter. The only thing I'm concerned about is that they're about 2mm thinner at the big end, any idea what the effect might be? And what is the easiest way of getting the motor out of the car? With or without gearbox? The only real problem is that I don't have a motor-lift.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 I've taken the engine apart today, and it looks like my crank is in good condition! I only have to measure it with a micrometer to make sure it is within spec. Btw, where is the place to get main bearings? Simons auto? Also, I got a LSD from a 505 -83 TD, the engine was without motor and drivetrain, except the differential and driveshafts so I took what I wanted from it and took it to the junkyard where it rests now. Picked up the car for free, so I'm very happy. Do anyone know for sure if there is any difference between the LSD I now have and the gas turbo-LSD's? I've found out what too narrow rods can cause, bent rods. The solution is to make sleeves in aluminium to go on the pin, between the rod and the piston with 0.2mm play (better word?). My pistons will arrive sometime this week, but I haven't found anyone who can weld my head or hone my block yet since everyone is on vacation now. Over the summer I don't have access to the workshop either, so I can't machine the pistons or the sleeves. It's so irritating that I can't get the engine together before after the summer.... I was hoping to have it on the road by now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted July 14, 2008 Report Share Posted July 14, 2008 Hi, I have some original bearings... Diesel diffrential have different ratio I'd would not worry about that pending on that case, just make sure at axel dont move <-> more than spec. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2008 PM me a price for those std. size bearings. Do you know what gear ratio the diesel differentials have? Is it possible to swap the gears with those in my open diff.? I'll make those sleeves anyway, it can't hurt and I can make them for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2008 Here's a little picture-post. Peugeot VS Saab rods & bearings: Piston damage (Any idea what could have caused this?): Bonus-pictures of the corpse: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Isn't that aligned with the position of the valves? I've seen pistons with "indentations" there before when the piston hits the valve repeatedly. But like this? Never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Yes it's in line with the valves, but the strange thing is that only 3 pisons look like this. And the valves don't show any damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 That looks like either damage from detonation, and/or from a lean condition that started to melt the piston.... Be curious how your engine comes together with the new rods and pistons though! Have you given any thought on how to balance the crank after fitting the lighter rods and pistons? Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 That piston thing Someone has used some drilling machine (bad quality work btw) Remember weight those piston and rods... should not be more than 5g difference between sets (less if possible). V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 PM me a price for those std. size bearings. Do you know what gear ratio the diesel differentials have? Is it possible to swap the gears with those in my open diff.? I'll make those sleeves anyway, it can't hurt and I can make them for free. Seems at I don't have std ones. 0.1mm oversize is first. Gas turbo has = 10 x 37 Diesels have = 11 X 35 and 13 X 43 (manual) and automat same as gas turbo. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 That looks like either damage from detonation, and/or from a lean condition that started to melt the piston.... Be curious how your engine comes together with the new rods and pistons though! Have you given any thought on how to balance the crank after fitting the lighter rods and pistons? Rabin Don't think I'll be balancing the crank, is it really that neccessary on a straight 4-cylinder engine? I was under the impression that it only was neccessary if you make changes to the clutch/flywheel, or if you wanted a finer tolerance. The pistons shouldn't do any harm at least, since they aren't part of the rotating mass. That piston thing Someone has used some drilling machine (bad quality work btw) Remember weight those piston and rods... should not be more than 5g difference between sets (less if possible). V-M Hehe, that thought came to my mind too. I will balance/weigh the rods and pistons. Did you mean between the old set of pistons and rods and the new, or 5g difference between the rods and pistons in the set I'll install? Did Tama balance his crank? (Because of the rods/pistons) Seems at I don't have std ones. 0.1mm oversize is first. Gas turbo has = 10 x 37 Diesels have = 11 X 35 and 13 X 43 (manual) and automat same as gas turbo. V-M That's a shame... any idea of where I can get bearings for a reasonable price? Do you know if I could swap the gear set in the open diff with those in the lsd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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