Johnny Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Hi guys! In this thread I'll be reporting my progress with the car and show you some pictures of what I'm doing. My goal up til now has been to make the car run at all, as most of you guys here already know, I have had problems with the ignition system. I have replaced the oem ignition-box with megasquirt, running only ignition sofar. More info on that in this thread: Bad ignition I'm actually pretty confident about the ignition-curve I've programmed. It should be pretty much the same as the oem-one, but with some modifications. The snow has finally melted on the roads, so I have driven the car two times. It runs pretty well I think. I can hear a whistle-like sound when the turbo builds up boost, it sounds nice. The second time I went for a ride, I pushed it pretty hard and when I came back home, there came alot of white smoke out of the exhaust-pipe, and also some from the engine-bay. I think that the smoke in the engine-bay came from oil on the exhaust-manifold. It smelled funny too. I'm not sure if I have a leak or if it's just some old gunk that got heated up when I got the engine really warm. The previous owner had the head off (the car's ) and machined it, and maybe he didn't install the headbolts to the right torque so that coolant or oil is leaking in? Some pictures: Front Left Rear Right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I made and installed a manual boost controller (MBC) today. The MBC is basicly an adjustable spring ball valve. I'm not sure but I think that this type should give better spool-up because it doesn't apply any pressure to the wastegate before the opening-pressure of the MBC has been reached. I placed it next to the air-box so it can be adjusted easily, and used new hoses and clamps. When I disconnected the old electrovalve, I noticed that it was broken, and that one of the previous owners had "fixed" it with a piece of wire.... On top of this, one of the hoses were "fixed" with a piece of pipe that had a hole in it, right in the junction of the hoses! I'm pretty sure that air has been leaking in (and out) in these spots and I'm glad that I found them. I have also ordered a boost-gauge which should arrive at friday, and I have adjusted the MCB to almost no opening-pressure as it will remain until I get the gauge and can see what the heck I'm doing. I will then turn up the boost to stock (0,8 bar). The plan is to raise the boost in the future, but what do I need to do? I reckon that I should at least get (read make) a 3" downpipe, and new injectors. Is it ok to have a 3" downpipe and keep the system stock from the cat and back? I have a set of 200 injectors, but I'm not sure if they are enough or if I should get a set of 804's.... Fuelpressure if 3.0 Bar btw. I'll be running maybe 1.0-1.1 Bar in the future (I hope). One thing I want to add in the future is a little box that you hook up between the knock-sensor and MS, so that MS knows when the engine is knocking. Then I could use MS's feature to retard the ignition when knock occurs. MS can also control the boost if you hook up an electrovalve to it, and can also reduce the boost if the engine knocks. Technically, MS could work exactly like the OEM ignition, probably better. Pictures! The electrovalve and the wire that held it together The MBC Mounted The MBC was made according to this article: MBC Article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest adegnes Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I made and installed a manual boost controller (MBC) today. The MBC is basicly an adjustable spring ball valve. I'm not sure but I think that this type should give better spool-up because it doesn't apply any pressure to the wastegate before the opening-pressure of the MBC has been reached. I placed it next to the air-box so it can be adjusted easily, and used new hoses and clamps. When I disconnected the old electrovalve, I noticed that it was broken, and that one of the previous owners had "fixed" it with a piece of wire.... On top of this, one of the hoses were "fixed" with a piece of pipe that had a hole in it, right in the junction of the hoses! I'm pretty sure that air has been leaking in (and out) in these spots and I'm glad that I found them. I have also ordered a boost-gauge which should arrive at friday, and I have adjusted the MCB to almost no opening-pressure as it will remain until I get the gauge and can see what the heck I'm doing. I will then turn up the boost to stock (0,8 bar). The plan is to raise the boost in the future, but what do I need to do? I reckon that I should at least get (read make) a 3" downpipe, and new injectors. Is it ok to have a 3" downpipe and keep the system stock from the cat and back? I have a set of 200 injectors, but I'm not sure if they are enough or if I should get a set of 804's.... Fuelpressure if 3.0 Bar btw. I'll be running maybe 1.0-1.1 Bar in the future (I hope). One thing I want to add in the future is a little box that you hook up between the knock-sensor and MS, so that MS knows when the engine is knocking. Then I could use MS's feature to retard the ignition when knock occurs. MS can also control the boost if you hook up an electrovalve to it, and can also reduce the boost if the engine knocks. Technically, MS could work exactly like the OEM ignition, probably better. Pictures! The electrovalve and the wire that held it together The MBC Mounted The MBC was made according to this article: MBC Article cool! Nice article! looks like this one's alot bether than ordinary bleeders... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I hope so, it was really cheap at least. Costed me less then $11 I'll be reporting how well (or bad) it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 29, 2007 Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I hope you have better luck than me - I hooked a MBC like that (Grainger valves) and the Peugeot would have none of it. Couldn't get consistent boost control for love or money. Put it back into a Turbo Dodge and it worked perfect... Sounds like the hole in the previous system was just a bleeder to try and get more boost as well - you're MBC should have a bleed as well... (Unless it was just a crappy connector!) Not how much gain you'll get with the 3" DP and stock syustem - but at least it's there for a 3" all the way back. (Going through / across the rear subframe is the issue, unless you do side exhaust.) There's so much potential in these cars it's crazy. I see guys spending $5000 USD on brakes for their Volvo and for a fraction a 505 Turbo with the same money into it would blow it into the weeds. It is nice to be driving a car with aftermarket support - but the urge to do the Pug is just getting stronger and stronger. Hopefully this summer I can finally start getting some progress done on my car! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 I hope you have better luck than me - I hooked a MBC like that (Grainger valves) and the Peugeot would have none of it. Couldn't get consistent boost control for love or money. Put it back into a Turbo Dodge and it worked perfect... Sounds like the hole in the previous system was just a bleeder to try and get more boost as well - you're MBC should have a bleed as well... (Unless it was just a crappy connector!) Not how much gain you'll get with the 3" DP and stock syustem - but at least it's there for a 3" all the way back. (Going through / across the rear subframe is the issue, unless you do side exhaust.) There's so much potential in these cars it's crazy. I see guys spending $5000 USD on brakes for their Volvo and for a fraction a 505 Turbo with the same money into it would blow it into the weeds. It is nice to be driving a car with aftermarket support - but the urge to do the Pug is just getting stronger and stronger. Hopefully this summer I can finally start getting some progress done on my car! Rabin It could have been a bleeder, but it looked kinda like the hose was fixed... well well. it's a thing of the past now. Why should my MBC have a bleed? I didn't quite get that. I took a look at the exhaust-system today and it looked pretty rusty and tired. No holes that I could see but I'm thinking about replacing the whole system when I get at it. One problem is that I don't have access to a welder, and I'm not great at welding either. But that will probably solve itself in time.... I'll be making a new tank-holder because the old one was quite rusty. And when I took it off, I managed to break the small pipe to the in-tank fuelpump, so I guess it needs an replacement. But I don't know how I'm supposed to get the old pump out.... Ideas anyone? I got tired at looking at the tank after a while and started to remove the left rear caliper (which I knew was dodgy). I had to cut the brake-line in order to get the caliper loose so I hope that there are replacements available.. otherwise I'll have to make it work the ghetto-approach. Anyway, both the outer seals were broken, I just hope that the cylinder itself is reuseable. Sigh... It feels like everything I touch on this car turns into shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Bleed is needed so that the wastegate can vent after it sees boost... IE: As soon as the engine builds boost to overcome the spring and ball it fills the actuator and opens the wastegate, boost falls, spring closes and traps the pressure in the actuator which keeps the gate open... When the spring is closed the pressure needs to escape through a bleed so the wastegate can "deflate". I took a look at the build link you sent and it's step 7. Didn't read the article though - just skimmed to see if it had a bleed in it. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Just occured to me that I may have put a damper on your MBC idea - not my intention at all - but what I would suggest if the MBC isn't working for you - is setting up MS to do the boost control. It's dead simple to use one of the channels of MS to do a VERY sofisticated electronic boost controller, and I'm sure the code is even easily downloadable! Find a electronic boost solenoid from a wrecker, wire it in, and let the MS handle the rest. MUCH better than a MBC since even when they work they can have HUGE variances based on temp and atmospheric pressure... I've been lurking on the MS yahoogroups list acquiring info for the last 3-4 years. I'm personally waiting for Ultra-MegaSquirt, but till then I'm pretty much settled on using the Turbo Dodge factory ECU that has been hacked to allow it to be programmed. (It has programmable boost capabilities too - even temp dependant so it will limit boost till operating temp...) For the tank - one option would be fuel cell - the other would be to find a wrecker to see if you can just replace with a good part. It sucks to have to do all this kind of stuff - and it's usually the stuff that kills a project. Here there's a retaining ring that holds the intank assemble the it just rotates out. The main pump should be easy enough to replace / secure with a good inline performance pump. (Like a Walbro) Exhaust is stainless so it should be fairly decent - might be one of the last things I do to be honest. It's a decent mandrel bent stainless system - and would likely be totally fine to 250 HP with a good muffler. If you can get through it though the payoff is huge. Just don't start in too many places - get it running and then pick of the stuff it needs one at a time. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest adegnes Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Why should my MBC have a bleed? I didn't quite get that. Is'nt that small hole drilled in the "T" a "bleeder" for releaseing "back pressure" from the WG? Curious to see if it works ok... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Bleed is needed so that the wastegate can vent after it sees boost... IE: As soon as the engine builds boost to overcome the spring and ball it fills the actuator and opens the wastegate, boost falls, spring closes and traps the pressure in the actuator which keeps the gate open... When the spring is closed the pressure needs to escape through a bleed so the wastegate can "deflate". I took a look at the build link you sent and it's step 7. Didn't read the article though - just skimmed to see if it had a bleed in it. Rabin I see, makes sense. Just occured to me that I may have put a damper on your MBC idea - not my intention at all - but what I would suggest if the MBC isn't working for you - is setting up MS to do the boost control. It's dead simple to use one of the channels of MS to do a VERY sofisticated electronic boost controller, and I'm sure the code is even easily downloadable! Find a electronic boost solenoid from a wrecker, wire it in, and let the MS handle the rest. MUCH better than a MBC since even when they work they can have HUGE variances based on temp and atmospheric pressure... I've been lurking on the MS yahoogroups list acquiring info for the last 3-4 years. I'm personally waiting for Ultra-MegaSquirt, but till then I'm pretty much settled on using the Turbo Dodge factory ECU that has been hacked to allow it to be programmed. (It has programmable boost capabilities too - even temp dependant so it will limit boost till operating temp...) For the tank - one option would be fuel cell - the other would be to find a wrecker to see if you can just replace with a good part. It sucks to have to do all this kind of stuff - and it's usually the stuff that kills a project. Here there's a retaining ring that holds the intank assemble the it just rotates out. The main pump should be easy enough to replace / secure with a good inline performance pump. (Like a Walbro) Exhaust is stainless so it should be fairly decent - might be one of the last things I do to be honest. It's a decent mandrel bent stainless system - and would likely be totally fine to 250 HP with a good muffler. If you can get through it though the payoff is huge. Just don't start in too many places - get it running and then pick of the stuff it needs one at a time. Rabin I was going to use the OEM solenoid for that purpose, but I just wanted to test this because it was so cheap before I go all electronic. The cables are already there so it will be a fairly easy job. I already have that code in my MS, it's called Megasquirt'n'spark btw. A fuelcell is not an option right now, and it would hurt the handling a bit if placed in the trunk, haha (the tank is under the trunk in euro-versions.) There is a plastic ring holding the pump, but I don't know how to get a grip on it so I can unscrew it. Is there some special tool or something like that? I don't think that finding a replacement is hard, according to V-M, saab 900/9000 has an identical pump. You don't have to worry about me getting tired, I have very good patience with things . I only do one thing at the time, but one thing often becomes many =/ I'm thinking about making a cheapo water injection too, using one or maybe 2 windshield washer motors. I think I have come up with a solution to make it near bullet proof. Is'nt that small hole drilled in the "T" a "bleeder" for releaseing "back pressure" from the WG? Curious to see if it works ok... Yes I think it is, but I didn't drill one in mine because I've seen others that have reported that theirs did work without that hole and I didn't have such a small drill that was mentioned in the article. Maybe a 1 mm drill will do the trick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 first off congrats on getting the car working johnny, glad your making progress and have it on the road. once again i see pictures of overseas and it makes me want to take a trip over there hahaha as far as the MBC goes, good for experience, but FROM experience, it just won't really work on the N9TEx. a friend and i have tried for many many moons to try to get some sort of manual boost control on a N9TEA to work properly, using all the different methods of 'bleeding' or 'modifying' boost. i've talked to turbo people about this and nobody has been able to answer exactly why they don't work. the best answer i seem to get is it has to come down to intake or exhaust manifold design. consistent boost was obtainable, but the boost spikes, jesus christ! the more you open the bleeder, the more of a spike you get. the BEST way we were able to increase boost without a spike was stiffening the spring tension on the actuator. get a bike pump or something and start messing with your actuator. you might have to cut a bit off the end, but you should be able to adjust it all the way short and get 1bar or more of boost. (i think now you see why we went with an aftermarket actuator on the T3/T4 over getting the stock one adapted to the new housing ). keep in mind that you need some throw for the actuator door to open, so don't go adjusting it so it can only open 1mm, heh! as for the downpipe, i'm not sure that'd be all that much of an increase in power if that's what your after. again, if you want to do it for the hell of it, go for it! it'd be really cool to see someone adapt a 3' downpipe to the stock T3 turbine housing. trevor made a complete 3' system for his car, which was great fun, and sounded kickass, but the power increase wasn't much at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Sounds strange that you've had so much troubles with it. I don't see why exhaust/intake manifold design should matter that much, since it's just a simple pressure-device. I suppose that you removed the electro-valve before you attempted to use an MBC? I'll be interesteng to see how (if) it works on my car. I thought that a 3" downpipe was needed if you are going to raise the boost. V-M said something about melting the turbo if setting the boost to 1 bar with the oem downpipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Sounds strange that you've had so much troubles with it. I don't see why exhaust/intake manifold design should matter that much, since it's just a simple pressure-device. I suppose that you removed the electro-valve before you attempted to use an MBC? I'll be interesteng to see how (if) it works on my car. I thought that a 3" downpipe was needed if you are going to raise the boost. V-M said something about melting the turbo if setting the boost to 1 bar with the oem downpipe. yeah, let us know how the MBC goes. as far as the electro valve, yes, we have tried just about everything. the best thing was an adjustable restrictor, with an adjustable bleeder on the end (not sure that's the correct terminology, but thats basically what it was doing). this is all hardware store stuff too. think of a straight through tap which was adjustable, so you could adjust the amount of air flow. usually we'd run the restrictor on the end of the line all the way open (it still restricted air a bit all the way open), then ran the one in-line half way maybe (depending on the tension of the WG actuator spring). that was able to give us the extra increase in boost we we're after without much of a spike. i disagree about the downpipe idea. peugeot sport used to run 1.17 bar with their 'sport package' (from what i understand), and that was all stock exhaust. i've see over 20psi (1.5 bar) without any problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metako Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 Here's an article on plans for what seems to be an excellent MBC. Havent made it yet but probably will do at some stage. part 1: http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_0670/articl...?popularArticle and part 2: http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_0685/article.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted April 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 I took the left rear brake-caliper apart today, and this is what I found: As you can see, the left part of the piston is near undamaged, but the right part is heavily corroded. I measured it to see how much of it that had rusted away and it was about 0.12 mm smaller in the rusty area than in the good area. So I guess it's beyond salvation? =/ The cylinder itself looked fine: A new caliper cost about $230 so I think I'll have to try and find a used one. If anyone has one for sale at a fair price, then I'm interested. Here's a picture of the fuelpump and the little pipe that got broken: I think it's the pipe that goes to the carbon canister. How much do you need it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 Funny you should mention this one... This is the MBC I used on the Subaru Rally car that I crew cheif'd on. It's a trick set up, and it worked great during the rally, but it suffered from fluctuations between use. So every race day it would have to be set up. The only downside I can see for this set up was the quality of the valves. For the control to be nice and crisp it had to be in the engine compartment (routing inside caused spikes) so I plumbed it all in the engine compartment using steel brake lines. Trouble I think will be the diaphrams in the unit. Since they're not "automotive" grade units the longevity will not be very good at all. In use though it was awesome and it gave fantastic boost control. In the subaru I actualy had two boost circuits - used a regulator on the circuit to the boost pressure switch so that the ECU only saw it's peak allowable boost (12 psi I think) and then the turbo wastegate saw whatever I wanted. ECU went to a full rich map at 12 psi and actually had fueling for 15 psi. We ran C16 race gas - so I upped it 17 psi for our last race and it was nuts. Sadly the car had no intercooler - so the heat generated was far too high - but it still made more power so the driver wanted it maxxed out. (I didn't want to go over 14 psi) For daily use - using a tweaked electronic boost controller is definitely the ticket - especially one that can take other parameters into consideration - such as engine temp and such. BTW - the control unit ended up costing about $150 cdn after all was said and done - and it did work great for the race car. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metako Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 You made this Autospeed one?? Wow! Good to hear it worked really well but why did it need to be adjusted every day? That would be a pain. What actually fluctuated, the boost level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted April 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Do anyone know which other models of 505 that has the same rear calipers as the turbo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 Hi Johnny - all rear calipers should be the same on the various 505 models (or at least fit), so you should be able to fit any one of them. (All were unvented disks of the same size.) Metako - It was the EXACT article I found when I was looking for cheap effective boost control. You'll probably read that many MBC's are affected by fluctuations, but in the case of this control unit - the valves are plastic, and the diaphram is some sort of neoprene or something. I was able to minimize it some my using steel lines from the intake and to the wastegate, and the unit itself was put together using fittings where possible, and a trick hard plastic tubing set up used for industrial control circuits. It was a good controller that worked like a grainger valve - but I found it was easier to tune, and easier to get smooth results from. Wasn't quite the way the article described in how it was supposed to work - but the turbo did spool faster with no wastegate creep, and I was able to get more boost out of it with no problem. Trouble was I'd tune the night before the event - we'd take it to the start of the leg and the boost targets were buggered - so I'd frantically try to dial it in before the event. Soon learned to use my mitivac as a pressure source so that I could set up the boost controller manually. Mitivac had a gauge on it and I could see when the check valve would release - and then I could see the final pressure reached on the other side too with another air gauge. Pain in the butt - but once it was set it would stay consistent the whole race day. I'm not sure I'd do it again for my own car, and definitely not for a daily driver... I just don't think the quality of the unit would hold up over the long haul. I think a much better route is to have the ECU control it - so megasquirt, or some other stand alone. (or in my case - another manufacturer's ECU. (Turbo Dodge in my case.) Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metako Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Good to hear of your experiences. I might give this MBC a big miss then as mine's a daily driver. I'll install the simple MBC I made with the little ball and spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted April 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 I have bought a boostgauge, and I also made a plate of aluminium to fit it on the center-console. At first I made a plate in plastic from a garbage can, but it looked like shite, so I made one in aluminum instead. (looks better in reality) I don't know if I like the style of it, looks a bit strange with a single polished plate there, but I'm actually quite proad of the plate itself, haha. It looks alot better than the plastic plate I first made though. What do you guys think? I will be making a lambda-meter later soon too which I'll try and hook up with the existing lambda-probe. I just hope that it won't disturb the signal to the ECU too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 Looks great Johnny! All I'd suggest is painting the plate matt black to make it stick out less, or use more alloy plates so it matches... I've got similar ideas of mounting the gauges in the area right above your boost gauge, and then moving the switches to where the coin trays are. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted April 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 Thanks Rabin! I like your idea of placing the switches where the coin tray-space. I think that all the switches should fit there with some tweaking... Hmm, I think I will mount some more alloy-plates, it would be a shame to paint it when I've polished it so well. (it shines alot more then the picture says) I don't care too much about "bling-bling" but I really like to fabricate stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Lindroos Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 Here's a picture of the fuelpump and the little pipe that got broken: I think it's the pipe that goes to the carbon canister. How much do you need it? The smaller pipe is for the fuel return line from the engine, so it's very important. :-) I think the pipes are welded, so you could try to replace the broken pipe or better yet, make a new flange and pipes from stainless steel. These two linked pictures are from another Finnish 505 hobbyist: http://fatali.servebeer.com/~mrcrossfire/P...umpun_runko.jpg http://fatali.servebeer.com/~mrcrossfire/P...mpun_runko2.jpg I had almost the same problem as you (I broke the larger pipe ;-D) but I managed to buy an used "pump holder" that was in reasonable good condition. It wasn't from 505 Turbo (propably from a GTI), so the pipes were pointing to slightly different direction than before but it was still usable. Also the "mounting depth" was incorrect, so I had to drill some extra holes to modify it. I sandblasted and painted it to make it last longer. BTW, almost the same "pump holder" is also used at least in some 205, 309, 405 and other 505 models. So, if you take your 505 part along and go to a wrecker, you might find some replacements that are a direct fit or require some small modifications... Here are also two pictures of my "new" part (notice the new "Saab" pump). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Lindroos Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 A new caliper cost about $230 so I think I'll have to try and find a used one. If anyone has one for sale at a fair price, then I'm interested. I assume you have also read this: Rear Disc Brake Caliper Repair But it looks like your brake caliper might be beyond repair. :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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