XD3T Tuning

[wadehilts]

Hmmm, I've never had the bottom end of an Indenor apart but the potential that the main bearings are bigger than they are marked is a possibility.. Could you verify the size by measuring? I don't know what the OEM specs are but perhaps they can be found in some shop manuals.
Exciting news, I dropped the engine and IC in and so far everything fits! Even with the A/C in there and everything.

[LDV_Arthur]

That is exciting! Looks great, I'm very glad to have your build to reference as I go along.

I probably will measure and reference the shop manual as you suggest

[wadehilts]

Update!

I've gotten everything wired up, installed and the engine driving.

Had a few issues/notes so far:

1. The AEM boost controller gauge failed on me. The gauge reads normally and initially worked but when I took it out for day 2 of testing after retorquing the head and stuff, it no longer sends a PWM signal to the solenoid. I tested the solenoid, gauge MAP sensor and the wiring continuity to the solenoid and all were good. If I pinch off the boost hose to the solenoid I can get boosts up to 15 psi, wheres with it hooked up I can't get above 3. I'm sure I'm using the AEM truboost correctly as it worked at one point and then stopped.
2. It seems like using the loosest wastegate spring in my kit did not do me any favors, as the wastegate appears to be flying open at 15 psi. I will probably need to install a stiffer spring and retry. With wastegate blocked off, I climb to 15 psi and then suddenly boost drops to 11 psi and won't recover.
3. I have the pump advanced to the point where it hits the block. I'm getting good sound, and a little puff of black smoke upon boost starting. It seems like I'm close but frustrating that I can't advance more without changing mounting holes or something.
4. Exhaust backpressure seems to just trail the boost pressure, close to 1:1 ratio.
5. Car pulls and drives nicely otherwise.

Here are some pictures and a video. Video is of me doing a hill climb full fuel in 2nd gear (after my shift), you can see the boost, back pressure and EGTs. EGTs don't go above 600, and you can see the boost kick down when the wastegate flies open. Hard to say for sure but it seems the 13T turbo is on the bigger side for this build, spool time isn't super fast.

Would welcome people's thoughts.

Wade

Edit: in the install, I realized that the AEM TruBoost controller is not closed loop! So it doesn't provide a more linear boost building than a mechanical boost controller. It just bleeds air to the actuator at a certain PWM specified by the user. If I had just installed a 20psi spring in my boost control actuator to begin with I wouldn't have had this issue.

Edit 2: I suppose if the loosest spring held against the backpressure the Open Loop EBC would have improved the speed at which boost was built since the selected PWM duty cycle would have resulted in a steeper ramp towards target boost due to higher backpressures and a looser spring. Reading online, I see that some people go by the 2:1 rule of thumb: don't use a wastegate spring that is less than half of your target boost. Some say they've done it and been fine others not. I'll probably swap in a 12psi or greater spring and give it some good pre-load.

[Bean]

The wastegate you used - how many ports does it have?  Usually you can go with a light spring if you have a dual port WG that uses boost pressure to hold it shut as well, then when the wg gets the boost signal it swaps to the other side to open it quickly.  There’s some fancy routing that goes with it - but you get the point.

With stock / single port WGs the spring needs to be strong enough to stay shut until boost target, and then the boost signal opens it pretty quickly.  If the spring is too light it’s likely creeping open giving you a lazy boost curve.

Will be very curious what you see with respect to stiffer springs…

Also curious if Giles said anything about fueling limits?  That 13T should push a fair bit more psi quite efficiently.

Rabin

 

[wadehilts]

Hey @Bean, yes I failed to do the proper research on wastegate stuff. Now it all makes sense!

Luckily, the aftermarket WG actuator I got has an identical geometry version with 2 ports. I purchased that I will swap it in and re-use my custom bracket. I figured if I spent all the money on an EBC, I might as well make the most of it and use the lightest spring possible.

Giles didn't mention anything about fueling limits, other than that he spec'd my pump to support 20 PSI of boost. I suppose I could just jam the wastegate shut haha, but I feel like that's not a great idea.

Plus I like to be able to electronically adjust my boost and choose an exact profile that drives nicely. I had a 2.5" exhaust installed with a magnaflow muffler and the backpressure on the turbo is basically ideal, baaaarely breaching 1:1 with turbo psi. Really glad you suggested I install the EBP gauge as it helps rule out things like turbo intake hose collapse.

On another note, it's encouraging to hear on the Peugeot of North America Facebook page that Scotty Benier has done a similar mod before, going up to 26 psi of boost with a jammed wastegate. He was using the stock turbo, front mount air to air intercooler, and just screwed the fuel screw in all the way, avoiding super high RPMs as he encountered lots of smoke there. He also used an XD2S pump instead of 3T probably for the bigger piston head. He sheared the BA7/5 output shaft on his 505 wagon so he had to swap in a BA10/5 - not a simple drop in! But it seems like his U-Joint held up fine and everything else in the drivetrain too. I'm sure the 604's drivetrain is stouter than the 505 wagon's, so this is encouraging news. If everything in my build goes as planned, I will probably be putting out torque and power more efficiently with the newer turbo, EBC and custom IP tune.

[Bean]

Scotty is a LEGEND - I don’t post much on FB but when I saw he commented, I had to as well.  He went by Demandu or something so I didn’t place him until he mentioned his wagon and it all came back to me!  It was his wagon with the ba10/5 that prompted me to plan the 5sp swap into my diesel wagon.  His 504 resto was shaping up to be amazing as well.

Having the boost control with the dual port set up should give you way better control.  On the Volvo’s that turbo came on, the WG rod was adjusted so that at 4.5-5psi the WG would start to open.  That might be a good place to start while you wait for the dual port WG, but please document the dual port install as that’ll be cool to see.

BTW - we’ve had the discussion before, but pretty sure automatics got 10mm pump heads, and manuals got 9mm pump heads.  At least that’s what sticks out in my memory.

Also - can you get more room to advance the pump by removing it and advancing the gear a tooth?

Rabin

 

[Bean]

Drive pressure / EBP is also great for knowing when the exhaust manifold, or the turbo itself is too much of a restriction.  1:1 is perfect, but once you start to see it increasing you know it’s starting to hit a wall and that’s where your set up is ideal.  

Scotty’s reminder that diesels will only boost as much as fueling allows is also a good thing to keep in mind as your tuning.  You could just keep increasing boost thresholds until you start to see EBP, or EGT concerns.

Also wanted to ask how does the car feel as it revs out, and does it still have much of a governor or how did Giles tune that?  Most stock pumps are governed quite low and will pull a lot of fuel to limit rpm.  VW guys usually mod the spring out so there is no governor, but I believe Giles tunes the governor spring so that the motors pull much higher but still have the safety of a functioning governor to prevent over revving.

Rabin

[wadehilts]

@BeanWith piston pump head thing, I was able to confirm my research by using the VE pump part numbers. All the XD3T VE part numbers in the manuals (and on my 3T engine, which came on an auto) had a 9mm pump head part number. All the XD2S pumps have a 10mm pump head part number.

I may advance the pump a tooth, but also I have a feeling I'm a bit too advanced at the cylinder block anyways. My initial timing point put me about 1/8-3/16" back from interfering with the block, but even at that point the engine clatters a lot at idle and lets a puff of black smoke out before boost. Advancing it to the block just made it more clattery, and power seemed about the same... perhaps a little less on the lower end. I would also need to remove the timing chain cover and advance that gear a tooth. The VE pump gear is keyed so it can't be installed any other way. So that's not a tempting job!

When I ran the car at it's initial timing point the car puffed a bit of black smoke and pulled BEAUTIFULLY until the wastegate was actuated at 10psi. I didn't feel any fade in power across RPMs, but I wasn't driving the piss out of it yet.

When I tried to really drive it hard, my wastegate was slipping open. But as you could see in the video on FB, it spools really nicely and quickly until the wastegate pops. So it was hard to gauge what was causing the power to drop, RPM or boost loss. I'm hoping it was boost loss from WG popping open. Giles provided no notes whatsoever on his rebuild..

Dual port install seems pretty straightforward. I found this diagram for how to plumb it online. Since I know my current spring pops open at 15 psi, if the solenoid is fully delivering pressure to the top of the WG, the WG will hold until a higher psi if the solenoid is pulsed at a lower duty cycle. There are other plumbing options folks use if the back pressure is excessively high.

[Bean]

There are some good videos on you tube for setting up the Tru Boost- well worth the time.  I have the older one - is yours the newer Boostx version?

Definitely works differently than I had thought as well, and has quite the set up routine, but I did know set up and configuration was critical for proper operation, but once dialed in it was very stable and highly recommended.

Rabin

[wadehilts]

Mine is the truboost. Yeah I had just kind of assumed based on what I knew about wastegates that it would be a closed loop control system where solenoid position is your control output and the feedback state is the manifold pressure. Of course then you would have to probably implement some sort of PID control tune, and that probably would be too much of a headache to the average user so they just went for the standard open loop system where you bump up duty cycle gradually until you hit your target boost.

I'm a little bit confused how the wastegate crack pressure parameter affects the controller. I read the manual though and I think I understand basically how it all works. But I was very confused for a while because I kept trying to figure out how it was closed loop!

[Bean]

I watched a couple of the videos and setting the tru boost spring pressure seems to be a key tuning tool, but likely more so with a single port WG.  They keep referencing a dual port as an external as well which might work opposite to a dual port internal wastegate set up.  Would recommend the videos as there’s a 4 part series that while low on production quality, took you through the set up quite nicely.
 

Regardless - it was very different to what I was expecting the control logic to be as well, but it makes sense given all the variables at play.  Guessing you need something like this when dealing with a pneumatic signal rather than something like a digital controller / actuator.

Rabin

[wadehilts]

Waiting on the dual port wastegate to come in. The internal vs external thing shouldn't make a difference, both would be plumbed the same and they are both essentially the same components, one is just integrated in the turbocharger assembly and the other is in the exhaust. But both are experiencing the same backpressure.

Using the plumbing in the diagram above, my lower bound for boost will be ~11psi, since that's what I observe in my current build with zero wastegate actuation. The exhaust backpressure blows the WG open at around 15psi, causing boost to fall to around 11. If I install a looser spring than what I have spring the lower bound might drop and I'll be able to hold the wastegate shut for longer. It seems that the wastegate crack pressure is the pressure that the controller will not turn on before, so you can use that to keep the controller off until your close to your target. Dual port just lets you use a SLIGHTLY looser spring I suppose. So I really didn't get as much out of going to dual port as I thought I was going to, but it should be a slight benefit.

EDIT: I decided to just use a stiffer spring and not bother with a dual port wastegate. I don't want to rely on my exhaust backpressure to be the force ultimately pushing my wastegate open, I'd rather just use what I have and tune the AEM accordingly. I started with a 0.5 Bar spring that opened at around 12 to 15 psi, I think I will go to a 1.0 bar spring and tune accordingly! I can go even higher if that gives me issues but I think it will be fine. I'll also use a bit more preload. Should allow me to comfortable venture even a little north of 20psi

[wadehilts]

Another update:

The project seems to be a great success. With a 2.5" exhaust my backpressure is nearly 1:1.

The 13T spools quickly. With my stiffer spring, billet compressor and EBC, I can easily get to 22.5 psi of boost, haven't tried pushing it further than this but probably won't go too much before fuel limits things.

I timed the pump by ear and feel. My initial timing point I used the factory 'drop the valve' method, to get 0.89 mm BTDC on piston number 4 with a pump lift of 0.4 mm. That initial timing point gave me light black smoke steadily under boost. I retarded the pump about 1/8" from that reference point and the smoke is gone with about the same power. Seems pretty acceptable to me.

Boost kicks in nice, doesn't boost a ton at super low rpms, and I don't have a tach on the 604 so it's hard to gauge - but when I'm above 2000 rpm and loaded up the boost needle flys to max boost. Adding some snubbers tomorrow as my mechanical boost and EBC gauges are buzzy.

Its about 30F here, so cooling system is not being challenged at all, we'll see if we hit some limits come summertime.

Under steady 20psi of boost on the freeway, I never saw EGTs get above 650F. Not sure what I should be expecting there but it seems EGTs are far from the danger zone.

Big thanks to @Bean for all the notes he provided that informed much of this build.

[Bean]

Awesome update Wade!

Im super curious to know what the boost curve is in relation to RPM, but since you don’t have a tach can you estimate boost in relation to gear and speed?  It sounds pretty decent and not laggy enough for you to complain about - so would you say drivability is good?  Would you do a 13T again on an XD3T or do you think it’s still a bit big?

650F is no where near the danger zone, so I think you’ll be fuel limited boost wise which is a good thing about diesels since you’ll never need to worry about running lean or anything like that.

Also need to ask - How does it feel in comparison to a turbo gas wagon?  That was my target for my diesel project - I wanted the diesel to at least equal the 505 Turbo gas performance numbers.

Rabin

[wadehilts]

Hey Rabin,

Performance wise I'd say it pulls noticeably harder than a 505 turbo wagon. But the spool up characteristics are certainly different. I notice on 505 wagons, you can easily reach full boost at around 2000 RPM under full load just by opening the throttle all the way, but the higher rpm boost is rather dull. My build won't spool much until you get over (I'd guess) 2000 rpm. So if I'm cruising at lower rpm and floor it, the turbo won't build boost very quickly. Once I get north of 2500 rpm or so, the turbo spools very quickly. Especially coming out of 2nd gear you'll really feel yourself getting pushed back on the seat. By the time I'm hitting full boost of 23 psi or so (haven't pushed it beyond that yet, but I will probably eventually), the engine seems to probably be above 3200 rpm. The turbo is kind of in the sweet spot for higher rpm power, which is probably easiest on the drivetrain - as it misses the peak torque.
Cruising at 75 mph on the flat highway the car sits happily around 5-8 psi of boost in 5th gear and will spool up nicely when passing. I did an extended steep hill climb the other day, at about 40-50mph and 10-15psi of boost consistent. EGTs climbed to just shy of 900 but never went above. I'd conclude that there really won't be any issues there after that rigorous run.
I'm kind of curious if a smaller turbo would be more instantly available, or perhaps a smaller exhaust housing. I used a 6 cm^2 housing instead of the 7 cm^2 housing that came with the 13T, which was a good move. Overall, I'm pretty happy with the build and don't think I'll be tearing it down anytime soon to tinker with it. The more I drive it the more used to the dynamics I've gotten. And it definitely pulls quite nicely when you get up in the revs and spool up that boost

[Bean]

My whole build goal was highway trip car, so the boost response and performance I was after was exactly that - climbing highway passes, as well as highway passing performance, so I think I was pretty dang close for bench building what I thought would work well for this motor.

I owe you thanks in return for trusting me enough to take a chance on this unproven advice, and to build it with all the assumed risk that goes with that.

Initially I was going to suggest that I *think* there was a 5cm2 housing available, but I did some more search and found a similar thread where the guy used the same turbo on another diesel.  He swapped to a 5cm2 housing and it only boosted a few hundred rpm sooner, but his EGT’s went way up as a result.  His conclusion was the slightly quicker spool wasn’t worth the added restriction / EGTs.

So this super safe EGT’s and drive pressures you’re seeing are likely a direct result of the bigger compressor housing, at the expense of fast low down spool.  

Once you get more time and miles on the car I’d love to hear what kind of fuel economy you’re seeing as well.

Rabin 

[wadehilts]

After some more driving, and observation of my gauges. I do think that my turbo is a bit on the oversized end. At least for my preference, I do really like the feel of easy quick low end spool. I'm going to keep driving it for a while before doing anything. But if a straight flange 5 cm^2 housing exists I might be tempted to try it. My back pressures actually less than my boost pressure until about 10 PSI and then it full boost it's maybe 1.2 to 1 at most. And my EGT isn't even close to 1,000 under full load extended periods. Another odd thing I noticed is that on the kinogawa turbo website they have a 13T turbo listed and they offer the 11 plus 0 blade compressor wheel as better for high end power and the 6 plus 6 wheel better for low end. Which is contrary to the general theoretical premise of compressor wheels. 

So I think I'm pretty safe as far as room for exploration of a lower end design goes. I don't think I'd get to the point of having a way to choked turbo just by dropping the housing size one unit. 

[Bean]

It was hard to say without seeing actual boost pressure : RPM relationship as that usually clearly shows what boost response is like under load, so can't really comment other than you obviously know what you're feeling, so it has to be spooling later than ideal.

If there is a 5cm2 housing that would be an easy change, the 6+6 is the stock wheel design, but on the 19T I found it very non-linear.  When I went to the straight blade I found it built boost sooner, but had a much more linear build which made it so much nicer to drive and felt faster since it pulled lower and ALL the way to redline - but that was a 2500 - 7000 range on that motor!

With the diesel's shorter power band - maybe the 6 + 6 is the better choice since the RPM window is so much smaller?  Throwing on a stock 13G with a 5cm2 housing as long as it was bolt on might be the least work to see if that improves response on the XD3T....

Rabin

[wadehilts]

Good ideas Rabin! And yeah, I'm pretty on the fence still. The top end power is amazing and the car drives great, I just have that perfectionist urge to tinker with it until it's EXACTLY what I want. Your bench build brought me really close to what I want already. And pulling the intake/exhaust manifold is do-able with the engine in-situ so swapping in a different turbo wouldn't be too difficult. You make some good points about dropping in a stock 13G. I also was wondering what a 12T with a 6 cm^2 housing would be like. 
Might be a good time to revisit those turbo flow maps, this time with a reference to real-world performance!

Wade

[wadehilts]

Also it looks like the 13T has a similar flow as a 15G or 15C...

source: http://stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm

A 13G is rated around 360 CFM whereas the 13T was 428... surprisingly large difference there

You might be on to something with the 13G.

Interesting comparisons here:

I also see Kinugawa sells a 13G turbo cartridge. Not cheap but they have it with a billet: http://shopping.kinugawaturbo.com/turbochraupgradekitmitsubishi6g72t3000gttd04-19t-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-1.aspx

I also notice their compressor and turbine dimensions are different than what's show in the table above. They're actually nearly identical to the 13T's stated dimensions in the table, so it might actually be very close to what I have already...

[Bean]

I’m quite sure when I rebuilt my turbo with billet 19T compressor wheel it was a TD04HL-13G - it had the exact same hot side, but I had it rebalanced with  with the billet 19t.  Had to machine the center section so the 19t cleared, but other than that - the stock 19t went on perfect and it boosted very well indeed.

I sold the car that turbo is on, but kept the disassembled stock 19T with hopes of building it up for the diesel.  Quite sure I have the stock 13G wheel and compressor housing, but the plan was to do the same billet wheel you did - so this is all valuable feedback.

We could compare stock compressor wheel dimensions if that helps?

Rabin

[wadehilts]

That could be interesting.

I think I have the issue of not really knowing what I should expect and not having an RPM signal. I feel like I should drive the car for a few months and get the feel of it. I'm wary of overtinkering when it may not be necessary. 22.5 psi of boost is really quite a different animal than 7-8 psi on the gas turbos. The engine certainly performs well and is excellent on the hills and highway. 

I may have been overanalyzing things at first, I'll give it some time to observe. That said, I would definitely conclude a slightly smaller turbo design like a 13G would not be problematic, it may have less high end power but certainly not within any danger zone or very poor performance in the higher RPMs zone.

[wadehilts]

Did about 105 miles of driving yesterday, with 4 passengers including myself. Mixed driving mostly in the 40 to 70 mph range on the highway and thru some small towns. Last 10 miles were in the city.

The exhaust backpressure was consistently 1:1 or even slightly trailing the boost. EGTs climbed to 900F after a 30 second full boost run uphill at about 75 mph. In 5th gear, I'd be able to achieve max 22 psi of boost under full fuel load at about 70-75 mph on the speedo. Tuning the EBC / wastegate allowed my backpressure to remain 1:1 at full boost - as opposed to when the EBC kept the wastegate shut until fueling limited boost the backpressure went much higher at full boost. A good example of why using a wastegate is a good idea even if fueling can limit boost.

Thru this process I realized my speedo is  fast, maybe 10% too fast. Could be from having 15" rims instead of 14", not sure what mods previous owner did.

Whatever I've done seems to have really helped the fuel economy. I burned about 2.82 gallons of diesel. My odometer read 115 miles but I suspect it was 10% shy of this in actuality. Assuming a 10% fast speedo, that means I still got 36.7 miles per gallon! And this is mixed driving with 3 other people in the car!

I'm not too tempted to try to make modifications for more low-end spool, but my EGTs and boost to backpressure ratio definitely suggest I could attempt a smaller turbo or A/R. I would expect more low end boost would lead to even better mileage, at least in the lower rpm ranges, but this may be a moot point for highway mileage as the rpms are fairly elevated at this point anyways.

[DANGEL]

Hello overseas.
In 1996 I restored a 504 pickup and built the XD3TE engine with a turbo from a Mercedes 320. It was mechanically controlled and had a lot of power from the bottom.
Today I have a 504 wagon, that is being converted to four-wheel drive. Dangel4x4.
Here the XD3TE will receive a bi-turbo. Two small turbos with little mass. Also from Mercedes Benz.
I'm looking forward to this year.
If you need something from EU, specially from Germany, let me know!
Greetz Jens

[Bean]

Welcome Jens!

Looking forward to hearing more about your Dangel build - feel free to start your own build thread!

Curious what model of turbos you are using?  I’ve been tempted to look at compound turbos, but never considered parallel twin turbo on a 4 cyl.

Rabin