Dongfeng deal update...

[Bean]

I was curious how this was coming and found this article: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/835542.shtml#.UsZBzbSQnuE

I still have hopes that Peugeot can figure their future out, but they really need a stand out car or a revolutionary technology that will yank them off their current trajectory.

Rabin

[PeugeotPilot]

Well, I think everyone's favourite marque will be around for some time to come, but it sure looks bleak right now. Fact is, I myself don't find a great deal inspiring about the current Peugeot lineup. That distinctive French character seems to have been lost in an attempt to be. . .what exactly? German? I'm not really sure. Peugeot used to have a clear sense of self, and an evolutionary approach to their models that meant long service lives, conservative but classical designs that aged well (505 is perhaps the best example) and a logical relationship between the models that saw the flagship cars sharing the basic styling cues with the smaller models (Compare, for example, the lines of the 304 and 504, or the 305 and 505, or the 405 and 605.) Frankly, It appears to me that things started to unravel after the '06 series - going from the 406 coupe to the 407 coupe, for example, looked like a step backward to me. I think at some point Peugeots stylists and engineers started trying to emulate what others were doing, rather than staying true to those things that made them successful. For a company that created such brilliant cars in the 1980s and 1990s this is difficult to understand. How do you simply forget how to do what you know how to do? Perhaps this reflects the company's leadership and some of the decisions that were made at the helm. In an effort to capture a larger market share, perhaps Peugeot thought they had to try to be all things to all people. This approach usually pleases no one, and alienates those who are loyal to the marque already. I can't say with authority that this is what has happened, but it sure looks like it to me.

Rabin, you raise an interesting point - a standout car or a revolutionary technology - well, Peugeot does have the capacity to innovate. Although I've not really looked hard at it, they have developed a hybrid drive system that uses compressed air and by all reports this works brilliantly. Citroen has had advanced active suspension systems for a long time now - they were considered a leader in this field not that long ago... Why not (as one example) electric final drive at all four corners coupled to an efficient gasoline or diesel engine driving a generator, with a series of ultracapacitors to store energy for passing power or maximum-effort acceleration? If Peugeot so chose they could field a line of cars that absolutely set the bar in terms of sophistication - they have the talent, and French engineers are some of the best in the world.

This is perhaps the easier challenge though, because creating a technically sophisticated automobile that looks like every other carmaker's attempt to be "cutting edge" will still fail. People want distinctive vehicles, but ugly appears to be the new "cutting edge." The current styling is too busy, too fussy, and lacks the clean, simple, well-proportioned lines that worked so well in cars like the 505 and 405. Does this mean Peugeot needs to go back to making cars look like their 1990 models? No, but their design teams need to learn the lessons of the past and apply what works. Sophisticated syling does not mean cramming every visually interesting element into as little space as possible. It does not mean having to change the direction of a line every six inches. It does not mean syling cues that have no apparent purpose. The classical design is clean, purposeful, and simple with large expanses of unadorned space that incorporate compound curves in moderation. The designs of today (and I'm not just speaking about Peugeot here) try too hard to be "sophisticated," like someone at a party who attempts to impress the other guests by using lots of big words. It just comes across as overdone.

I really like the new lion logo. It is, to my eye, the nicest-looking logo yet. Ironic, then, that it adorns cars that seem lost in a sea of conformity, trying so hard to stand out, just like everyone else, and failing miserably at it. It's time for the French to remember who they are, and go back to building cars that are uniquely French. Even in a global economy, there's a market for that.

[Mike T]

Things are really quite dire for Peugeot. The amount of money they've got for R&D has been massively slashed. As long as 6 years ago they promised that they were developing an in-house DCT double clutch manual/automatic gearbox but the program was delayed, delayed again, and again, and now it seems to be shelved. So Peugeot still has 6 speed automatic slushboxes on offer, when most of the competition has moved onwards and upwards.

The new 208 was the great hope for Peugeot but so far it's off to a very slow start, with the Clio outselling it by about 50% in France last month. Their largest displacement gasoline engine is the THP 1.6 (shared with the MINI Cooper), the 508 is a slow seller. There is nothing interesting on the horizon either; there has even been talk of the RCZ not being replaced (how stupid would that be?). The Fiat Ducato outsold the Peugeot Boxer in France this past year, which is shocking if only because they're the same vehicle. Does this mean that even the French don't think Peugeot will survive?

The sale of their headquarters in Paris to a Quebec pension fund a couple of years ago, combined with the last-minute cancellation of the Le Mans program, were a wake up call for Peugeot fans. Since then, their lurching from GM to DongFeng as possible saviours seems desperate indeed. And who knows what the reconstituted company would be like, if any deal is eventually consommated.

I am going to have a new RCZ in Europe next summer and I suppose that means I am doing my small part in trying to support them in their time of need.

[PeugeotPilot]

When push comes to shove, governments hate to see large industrial employers go under. Even in the USA, a country that espouses laissez-faire "hands-off" captialism, the government moved to prevent the failure of GM and Chrysler in order to avoid a massive hit of unemployment. I don't think that the French government will allow Peugeot to go under. The French are not, by nature, as scared of public enterprise as North Americans are, and they have a long history of nationalizing struggling industries and then privatizing them later. Here's some reading on the subject:

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/lessons-from-the-nationalization-nation-state-owned-enterprises-in-france

This is in part why I am optimistic that Peugeot will survive. I suspect that the Dongfeng deal will prove to be unpalatable to the French government and they will either bail Peugeot out or buy the company outright as they once did with Renault. (Actually, they more or less confiscated Renault, but that's another story.) I am more concerned with when Peugeot will return to relevancy in the world automotive scene. I really think they need to find a way to reconnect with their unique identity and start producing interesting cars again. I do think the RCZ represents one bright spot in Peugeot's current lineup (although I think the car would look better without the gaping second grille below the first - this is illustrative of the styling comments in my previous post) and I am excited for you to get a chance to drive one, Mike. I hope you will let us all know about your driving impressions, as most of us will never get to drive one.

If I had the money I'd consider buying an RCZ-R, even though I would not be able to import it until 2029...

[Bean]

The 208 was a decent start, but the GTI needed to be the benchmark car in class like the 205 was previously. The new Focus ST IS ASTOUNDINGLY good car, and at the very least it needed to be on par. The new Mini JPS is another hot hatch getting the rave reviews the 208 GTI should have been getting. It's still a good car - but it needed to be better. Same thing with the 508... It's a nice car - but its not the benchmark in class, nor does it rival any of the benchmark cars.

So they either need to come out with something new that really is a benchmark car in class, it they have I redefine a niche car that takes off.

I think they still have the technical capability to come out with something revolutionary, and my hope that if the Donfeng deal does go through they HAVE to turn that investment into something tangible in the market.

Rabin

[PeugeotPilot]

Bringing that tehnical expertise to market will require a huge injection of cash. I think the "car guys" need to be making the design decisions, and focus on bringing the driving experience back to the fore. It is possible to have a technologically-brilliant machine that still has no connection to the driver. The technology should enhance and complement the driver's skill, not hamstring it. There is a fine line, but in many cases adding capability to the machine detracts from the driver's involvement in the process. Drivers very quickly become dependent on the technology and their basic technical skills atrophy. This is a problem in aviation, where the widespread use of sophisticated autopilot systems means that many pilots become very rusty at the actual skills required to fly by hand. Similar arguments apply in the case of things like ABS and traction control, which often remove driver skill from the equation in order to enhance safety for those who don't have the skills or training to modulate the brakes or throttle themselves. This is not to say that technology cannot enhance the driver experience - far from it in fact. Done right, electronic controls can enhance driver capability and make the drive even more immersive and interesting. Would I rather fly a Cessna with its cable-operated flight control surfaces or a CF-18 with it's fully-digital flight control systems? No contest there (although the Cessna is fun too). Driving at its best is a fusion between the driver's skill and the machine's capabilities, and it's a special relationship. I think the enthusiasts need to take back the company. I wish I had some first-hand experience driving the current Peugeot models so I could comment with some authority, but looking at the automotive reviews of recent Peugeot machinery it looks like they've lost many of the characteristics that hooked me on Peugeot in the first place. Money is needed, but so is vision.

[Mike T]

Carlos Tavares is the new head guy at Peugeot as of January 1st, and the good news is, he is a genuine "car guy". The challenge will be to find some cash - I think the ideas are probably there.

I have driven a few newer Peugeots:

406

207CC HDI

308CC

....and in 6 months, the RCZ.

The 406 is definitely a classical Peugeot, in that it's decent looking, rides well and has a cheap interior! Nice cars overall.

The 207CC was quite a blast to drive and again was a top end experience, much as a 205 CTI must have been in the eighties.

The 308CC was only a short test drive of 20 km or so but it was also quite nice.

When we were choosing a car for this summer's trip, I considered a 208 GTI, an RCZ and a 308CC. I think we made the right choice. A convertible in Greece would be a little too hot, so the top would be up a lot, and besides, I had driven one in 2009. The 208 GTI seemed too milquetoast.

The RCZ-R proves that Peugeot engineers can still do a great car when they are allowed to.

[casm]

Carlos Tavares is the new head guy at Peugeot as of January 1st, and the good news is, he is a genuine "car guy". The challenge will be to find some cash - I think the ideas are probably there.

I really hope so. God knows that Peugeot could use someone who actually loves cars - and driving - at the helm.

I have driven a few newer Peugeots:

406

207CC HDI

308CC

....and in 6 months, the RCZ.

The 406 is definitely a classical Peugeot, in that it's decent looking, rides well and has a cheap interior! Nice cars overall.

The 207CC was quite a blast to drive and again was a top end experience, much as a 205 CTI must have been in the eighties.

The 308CC was only a short test drive of 20 km or so but it was also quite nice.

I've driven the 406 and 407, both as HDis. Nice cars, but there's a definite progression from the 405 to the 406 (Coupé excepted) to the 407 of the cars becoming more and more interchangeable with pretty much anyone else's car in the same class; there's less and less as time goes on to really identify them as Peugeots.

Also, as the ex-owner of a 205 XRAD van, past driver of a 206 turbodiesel, and someone who has never touched a 207 or 208... They really lost the plot. The 205 was a brilliant little car, but the 206 (which is a good car in its own right) didn't *quite* have the same feel. It's like the mid-'90s hit and Peugeot just started losing its identity.

When we were choosing a car for this summer's trip, I considered a 208 GTI, an RCZ and a 308CC. I think we made the right choice. A convertible in Greece would be a little too hot, so the top would be up a lot, and besides, I had driven one in 2009. The 208 GTI seemed too milquetoast.

The RCZ-R proves that Peugeot engineers can still do a great car when they are allowed to.

I'm actually really interested to hear your opinions of it. Certainly, I think it's the best-looking car in the range - but what I've been reading about what it's like to drive has left me a bit cold on it. Hopefully I'll have my hands on one later this year, but that's looking like a very remote possibility right now.

For reasons I can't quite explain, I'm kind of liking the 508. It's not very exciting-looking, but with the right spec it could make a good Q-Car.

But overall I have to agree that the real problem here is that Peugeot seems afraid to stand out: they're building and putting Euroboxes on the market in a sea of other Euroboxes. Until there's something to give their cars both a sense of identity and uniqueness again, there's not much hope for a recovery.

And as someone whose family who has owned Citroens (myself included) since before the Second World War, don't even get me started on them. If PSA had any sense, they'd give freer rein to them to build cars on a common platform that truly come from Planet Citroen again, but that's a different rant.

[Mike T]

I think the version of the RCZ we'll be driving will be a good cruiser with good roadholding, and that's all I am expecting - a really cool-looking car to have a nice holiday in.

I agree on the Germanification of the Peugeot range, Renault too. I love the French cars of old, with massive suspension travel, body roll and limpet-like roadholding on bad surfaces. Even the 405 was too tight.

[Mike T]

Les jeux sont faits: http://europe.autonews.com/article/20140120/ANE/140129999/psa-board-said-to-back-cash-injection-by-dongfeng-france-govt?cciid=email-ane-blast&r=7888G8261467F2R#axzz2qrkhlRgS'>http://europe.autonews.com/article/20140120/ANE/140129999/psa-board-said-to-back-cash-injection-by-dongfeng-france-govt?cciid=email-ane-blast&r=7888G8261467F2R#axzz2qrkhlRgS