Bean Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 OK - so Phase 1 is just ordering all the needed parts - but it's still exciting! I have two new Racing Dynamics RGP 16x7.5" wheels coming, and two 20 pc BMW stud kits. The plan is to do up two sets of hubs for the 505 Turbo (FR and RR). If all goes well - then I can offer the 5 bolt conversion hubs with custom spacers - but the spacers will have to be custom for each wheel application. (I'll need specific wheel spec's in order to have the spacers machined to proper thickness - But they will have to be BMW 5 series wheels) My wheel package consists of 17x8.5" rears, and 16x7.5" fronts - and once I've done all the measuring, and created the spacers for my application, I'll be able to extrapolate to other wheel dimensions to ensure a perfect fit. I've done a lot of research so far - and this should be a VERY strong set up. The studs are threaded directly into the hub - so although there is a custom spacer - the wheel is still directly bolted to the hub. The spacers are also designed to locate the wheels (as per BMW wheel design) so the studs just hold it tight - the wheel is located directly by the hub to retain strength. Hopefully this isn't a stupid expensive upgrade - but it will be limited to the use of BMW 5 series wheels since they have the closes offset, and a bigger bolt pattern that's still common. So if any of you are interested - let me know ahead of time, and as costs become more concrete I can update everyone on the kit cost. I'm just going to do a cost recovery set up - so my expenses are covered and that's it. Any deals I get from my buddy doing the machining are also being passed on. If all goes well - this shouldn't be more that $300 USD (With hub exchange) for the complete custom hubs, and custom machined spacers. ($75 per wheel) Comments are welcome... (cause if no one's interested then I won't bother any sort of production.) Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 sounds good.. how far off is the offset to OEM do you know for sure? also, what BMW wheels are required? which 5 series? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 sounds good.. how far off is the offset to OEM do you know for sure? also, what BMW wheels are required? which 5 series? The BMW offset for the 5 series cars is +20mm and on a 7" wide BMW rim the backspacing is identitical to the OEM Peugeot 15" rim. I'm basing my conversion off the 89 525 - but from what I've read, you can pretty much swap E34 - E39 wheels - the just changed the mounting ring size - and they have ring adapters to use the large opening on the smaller hubs. (This ring I speak of is machined onto the bolt flange - the wheel sits on this machined ring to locate the wheels so that the wheel bolts can be used.) The trick is clearing the front strut on the 505T - and since I went to the 7.5" wheel, I suspect that I'll be needing a 5mm spacer to get optimal clearance, and to not upset the handling at all. The spacer is integral in my set up as the bolt flange is going to be used to locate the spacer, and the spacer is going to have the ring for the wheel to sit on - which is needed to keep strength at a peak. The rear is where I'm getting creative - there's a lot of space behind the tires on my car - so the 8.5" wheels I have only have a 13mm offset which means they will go a further inside the wheel well - the spacer is likely going to be fairly thin as well, but just to optimize wheel location, and to locate the wheels properly. (Guys that locate wheels with just the studs aren't really doing it properly - and your just asking for vibration issues to occur IMHO.) Like I've said - I've put a lot of time and effort into it, and if the theoretical pans out as I've planned - this should be a killer set up on the car. I should be able to run 245-17-40's on the back, and 225-45-16 up front - but again I'll be carefully weighing the pros and cons, and trying different size tires till I get the balance of OEM - but with a 50+% gain in traction.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 i'm really interested in this one. do keep us posted on how its all working out. i'll be cuerious to hear the pro's / con's. ...and nice work! a wider, better selection of tires would be really nice to have for these cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
505T Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Equally interested in seeing the outcome. Keep us posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 I lucked out and scored my car club some HUGE publicity doing demonstrations of pavement slaloms outside the front doors of Regina's first major auto show. It's going to be small of course - but we should still get a lot of exposure. The show is April 21-23 - and this is the new goal for getting the wheel swap done and in place, since I want to be running the car in the demos that we'll be doing. All the parts come Mar 31st, so it'll be tight to get complete - but as long as there isn't any major design revision, then it should go togther nicely... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boostin'euro89 Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 hey whats goin on i have an 89 turbo sittin on 18's all around, and even before i saw that message of yours i was lookin in to changin them to 17 in the back n 16 in the front however i had my custom adapters made, and i now have a nissan/accord/vw bolt patter which is i believe 4 x 4 1/2 and they work great however i did have to do a little bit of fender trimming to allow the wheels not to rub, i suggest goin for a different bolt pattern somthin that u see more often like my bolt pattern because wheels are goin to be expensive and hard to find, also the main reason i got the bolt pattern was because i know there are some serious 240sx guys that love to drift and all that fun stuff, which will know a good place to get tough rims for a good price OK - so Phase 1 is just ordering all the needed parts - but it's still exciting! I have two new Racing Dynamics RGP 16x7.5" wheels coming, and two 20 pc BMW stud kits. The plan is to do up two sets of hubs for the 505 Turbo (FR and RR). If all goes well - then I can offer the 5 bolt conversion hubs with custom spacers - but the spacers will have to be custom for each wheel application. (I'll need specific wheel spec's in order to have the spacers machined to proper thickness - But they will have to be BMW 5 series wheels) My wheel package consists of 17x8.5" rears, and 16x7.5" fronts - and once I've done all the measuring, and created the spacers for my application, I'll be able to extrapolate to other wheel dimensions to ensure a perfect fit. I've done a lot of research so far - and this should be a VERY strong set up. The studs are threaded directly into the hub - so although there is a custom spacer - the wheel is still directly bolted to the hub. The spacers are also designed to locate the wheels (as per BMW wheel design) so the studs just hold it tight - the wheel is located directly by the hub to retain strength. Hopefully this isn't a stupid expensive upgrade - but it will be limited to the use of BMW 5 series wheels since they have the closes offset, and a bigger bolt pattern that's still common. So if any of you are interested - let me know ahead of time, and as costs become more concrete I can update everyone on the kit cost. I'm just going to do a cost recovery set up - so my expenses are covered and that's it. Any deals I get from my buddy doing the machining are also being passed on. If all goes well - this shouldn't be more that $300 USD (With hub exchange) for the complete custom hubs, and custom machined spacers. ($75 per wheel) Comments are welcome... (cause if no one's interested then I won't bother any sort of production.) Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Adapter VS hub re-drilling To me the difference is show VS go. I run my car quite hard in solo II, so running thick alloy adapters where all the wheel forces have to be transmitted through an adapter is unacceptable for my needs. I wanted to to have maximum strength, and I wanted to limit the force exerted on the bearings. (Running adapters basically gives more leverage to the forces incurred which isn't ideal.) For my needs I wanted to have as close an offset as possible so that I would limit the distance needed to mount the wheel so that I can just run a spacer of minimal thickness. I also chose the BMW pattern since there are some very high quality BBS stock wheels that can be bolted on, and the price of used compares with cheap aftermarket wheels. The wheels are also designed to be on a high HP RWD car - not engineering for a FWD car. Don't mean to put down what you've done - but for what I wanted - it just wasn't going to be suitable. I'd still like to hear how your car drives with smaller rims though - sounded like the handling with the 18's sucked... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
505T Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Adapter VS hub re-drilling To me the difference is show VS go. I run my car quite hard in solo II, so running thick alloy adapters where all the wheel forces have to be transmitted through an adapter is unacceptable for my needs. I wanted to to have maximum strength, and I wanted to limit the force exerted on the bearings. (Running adapters basically gives more leverage to the forces incurred which isn't ideal.) For my needs I wanted to have as close an offset as possible so that I would limit the distance needed to mount the wheel so that I can just run a spacer of minimal thickness. I also chose the BMW pattern since there are some very high quality BBS stock wheels that can be bolted on, and the price of used compares with cheap aftermarket wheels. The wheels are also designed to be on a high HP RWD car - not engineering for a FWD car. Don't mean to put down what you've done - but for what I wanted - it just wasn't going to be suitable. I'd still like to hear how your car drives with smaller rims though - sounded like the handling with the 18's sucked... Rabin As a matter of fact, I read that 18" are possibly the best compromise for tire wall rigidity in race cars...and that it would be more practical to have, for example, 18 inchers on the front (in a rear wheel drive car) and have the 17 inchers at the back. What I have seen more often (even in the FIA GT) is that the front wheels may be (for example) 18 inches with a size 50 tire wall and the front wheels will be 17 inches with a 45 wall. I cant seem to attatch pictures but follow the link and the other link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 I probably should have wrote that better - the issue isn't with the 18" wheels that cause the sucky handling, but the change to the suspension geometry on how the tire contacts the road. Ideally the tire's contact patch should rotate about it's center when you turn your steering wheel. Putting wider tires on with the wrong offset changes this and you end up with less than desireable handling traits. (car darts around, follows depressions in the road etc.) I have no problem with 18" wheels per se, but they need to be designed to fit the car for them to work properly. In the 505T's case - I know that I will likely have some issues with wider wheels, but I've minimized the effect as much as possible without redesigning the suspension. If the car handles like crap, then I'll redesign the geometry of the strut to hub and see if I can get the contact patch to rotate about itself. The limiting factor is definitely the strut to wheel clearance - so you're really limited to width. The closest wheel that I found was the 5 series wheels that had the desireable RWD offset (20mm), so I did the best I could with the info I found. Hopefully I found a decent balance - but I won't know for sure till I can run the car on the track... (May 13th is a track day - so failing the car show - I want it done for that!) Those pics are the reverse of what you've written... (RR is right rear, LF is Left Front...) They show having smaller front wheels, with larger rear wheels... Exactly what I've planned for my car. I've heard of playing around with different tire sizes to fine tune handling traits, but I've never seen larger front wheels. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
505T Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 As I said, the first part is what I read....the following part is what I've seen. The rationale of having 18 inch wheels at the front was to have a low profile tire on it and have higher profile tires at the back with the smaller diameter wheel...but the heights remain the same front and back. This I read on a Ferrari forum. The pics I posted is what I have witnessed...though I should have corrected myself and said 17 inch at the front and 18 at the back. In the Porsche picture, I believe both rims are the same size and the front tires simply have a lower profile than the rear tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Sorry - I was confused at first by what you've read vs what you witnessed, but I got it now. I've never read about running larger rims with lower aspect ration on front - usually it's the same size or smaller rim with the low aspect ratio tire for that lower sidewall. Makes sense though if you think about it - the larger rim with low profile tire would give you a slightly longer contact patch... Since my car is going to be a daily driver with limited track time for fun - I'll likely not need that advantage... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boostin'euro89 Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 tell u the truth my car handles 60% better than the stock wheels i know what your talking about not having the right balance and all, but they handle great n im a drifter i'll drift whatever the hell u want me to with my 18s with the slightest rolling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Cool - good to know that the car handles good - means I'm on the right track I guess. As for your wheels - which 16 & 17" were you thinking of doing before you went with 18's? Is there a reason why you went to 18's instead - or will it just be easier to drift with 18" tires? My car club in Regina has been approached by some guys that want to have specific drift events, so if all goes well and we have members that join and are willing to set it up we *might* have some drift events this summer as well. I'll definitely have to give it a try if they do. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 ...but they handle great n im a drifter i'll drift whatever the hell u want me to with my 18s with the slightest rolling post some pictures or video's of you drifting your car boostin'euro89! also, did you ever get your boost control issues sorted out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boostin'euro89 Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 post some pictures or video's of you drifting your car boostin'euro89! also, did you ever get your boost control issues sorted out? yeh it's runnin alright for now around 15 psi, but with the stock fuel system nothing crazy yet, as for the videos just wait till summer time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metako Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 Great project! I've been thinking about a wheel conversion myself recently. Looking forward to some photos of the work in progress inc the wheels youve bought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 Front wheels arrive Friday at noon - all four go straight to my buddy's wheel shop where he'll be refinishing the new wheels (with lug cover) into the exposed lug style of the rear rims. Pictures I take will illustrate the process.(I'm hoping this is possible!) I can't wait! Now I just need to make up my mind on the colour - if any - that I should have them done in. I'm leaning to competition white, but satin black, or charcoal would look cool as well. I even have an idea of matt navy with machined highlights... Decisions decisions... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 Front wheels arrive Friday at noon - all four go straight to my buddy's wheel shop where he'll be refinishing the new wheels (with lug cover) into the exposed lug style of the rear rims. Pictures I take will illustrate the process.(I'm hoping this is possible!) I can't wait! Now I just need to make up my mind on the colour - if any - that I should have them done in. I'm leaning to competition white, but satin black, or charcoal would look cool as well. I even have an idea of matt navy with machined highlights... Decisions decisions... Rabin glad to hear it! (and post pictures!!!) what color is the car their going on? or is this the car you wanted to re paint? I've been planning on doing black wheels for a 505, but haven't got around to it.. (that's my ideal wheel color ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 Car is currently white - Exactly like 505T's car in his avatar... That's why I'm thinking white as well for the wheels - but it's a big decision! Color options for the car when I paint it are White or Silver. I'm also playing with a custom idea of Peugeot Motorsport stripes on whichever paint scheme. If I do silver - then the wheels will be silver too. I also have some crazy idea's of a modern hotrod paint scheme's - something subtle - but definitely worthy of something Foose would do on Overhauling... If this is something I pursue - then silver wheels, satin black, or even satin Navy are options for wheel colors... The crazy ideas are fun to think about - but I keep coming back to the classic motorsport white with subtle classic Peugeot Sport stripes. Car stays timeless that way - but I'll definitely do some p'shop'in to see what my crazy ideas will look like. (I'll post if and when I get those done - but paint is definitely next winter/year country.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
505T Posted March 28, 2006 Report Share Posted March 28, 2006 Great minds think alike! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 hmmmm, white on white? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Yep - I think I've settled on the white on white with some subtle motorsport stripes. I entertained some crazy ideas just to see if anything else appealed to me - but nothing stayed cool for very long. As for an update - I currently have the wheels and the stud kits for my hubs, and I've taking the new 16" wheels in to see what can be done to modify them to look like the 17" wheels... So far - nothing can be done by the machine shop, so it looks like I'll need to fill the bolt circle area with something and then sand it into shape. I've researched some promising aluminum epoxy type products - so now I'm just weighing my options before purchasing a product. Once I fill in the area that the lug cover was covering, I can have the center hole machined in to match the 17" wheel, and then I just have to get them refinished in white. I also have to remove some spare rear hubs, then take both front and rear hubs to be redrilled. Once re-drilled, I'll then be mounting the wheels and determining the necessary spacer thicknesses to be machined. It's nice to be progressing - but I want to make sure I nail execution so that it handles well, so I'll be taking my time with the set up and installion... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metako Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Any progress with the project Bean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted June 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Slow - but progressing. I've been stalled for the last 3 weeks waiting for some "liquid" aluminum epoxy from Devcon so that I can change the 16" wheels from using a lug cover to having exposed lugs. The 16" have been blasted to the alloy so that I can add the epoxy and shape the wheel to match the 17" open lug style wheel. Once that's done I'll have the front and rear hubs drilled and then I can work on fitment issues. I'm now shooting for a July completion date as I'm also trying to get rid of some other project cars I've had forever to raise some money to do the Pug up right. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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