geo Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 After my second blown Valeo radiator, I'm thinking of replacing the whole mess with an aluminium radiator, electric shroud fan and electric water pump. Has anyone tried this and won? -George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 http://www.505turbo.com/86505/blog/archive...r.html#extended This is what August has done with his project car. The only issue is mounting the fan on the passenger side - if you can put it on the driver side of the rad it should clear the WP pulley for sure. Ron Davis rads are pretty $$$ rads though. I've looked at generic race rads on e-bay and the Chevy inlet and outlet set up should work. Might be worth while to see if you can get one close to the size and then just make mounts for it. Not sure how you'd plumb in an electric water pump, or if they've got ones made for daily driver use. Most of the electric water pumps I've seen were for race engines. On my first 86' 505 Turbo I replaced the water pump, and then gutted the electromagnetic fan so it was just a pulley basically. I then used a 16" sucker fan on the rad, and used the wire off the electro magnetic fan brush to run the fan. Worked great with no temp issues at all. OEM water pumps are pretty scarce if not even available, but I think they can be rebuilt if sent out. I googled it and found a dude called the flying dutchman www.fdrbp.com (site isn't up now - but it was) BTW - I was once told that if there was no weight on those pump shafts the pumps would last forever (essentially) so I gutted it and took a lot of weight off it. I've even got a crazy idea to do up a serpentine set up for the Dani engine if I get time. I've got a machinist buddy, so if I can get him to adapt an existing WP pulley off something else to the N9Te one, and modify the crank pulley to match - I can then modify in a newer alternator, and install a new power steering pump off something much newer and more efficient. (And readily available.) Curious about the electric pump idea though. Keep us posted on what kind you'd be looking at. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geo Posted February 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 http://www.505turbo.com/86505/blog/archive...r.html#extended This is what August has done with his project car. The only issue is mounting the fan on the passenger side - if you can put it on the driver side of the rad it should clear the WP pulley for sure. Ron Davis rads are pretty $$$ rads though. I've looked at generic race rads on e-bay and the Chevy inlet and outlet set up should work. Might be worth while to see if you can get one close to the size and then just make mounts for it. Not sure how you'd plumb in an electric water pump, or if they've got ones made for daily driver use. Most of the electric water pumps I've seen were for race engines. On my first 86' 505 Turbo I replaced the water pump, and then gutted the electromagnetic fan so it was just a pulley basically. I then used a 16" sucker fan on the rad, and used the wire off the electro magnetic fan brush to run the fan. Worked great with no temp issues at all. OEM water pumps are pretty scarce if not even available, but I think they can be rebuilt if sent out. I googled it and found a dude called the flying dutchman www.fdrbp.com (site isn't up now - but it was) BTW - I was once told that if there was no weight on those pump shafts the pumps would last forever (essentially) so I gutted it and took a lot of weight off it. I've even got a crazy idea to do up a serpentine set up for the Dani engine if I get time. I've got a machinist buddy, so if I can get him to adapt an existing WP pulley off something else to the N9Te one, and modify the crank pulley to match - I can then modify in a newer alternator, and install a new power steering pump off something much newer and more efficient. (And readily available.) Curious about the electric pump idea though. Keep us posted on what kind you'd be looking at. Rabin Thanks so much Rabin. The water pump pulley split in half yesterday and stranded me, so I'm thinking of replacing everything. I've also heard that the OEM water pumps are impossible to find new. I have one somewhere from my 86 turbo, but that had over 300,000 miles on it so I'm reluctant to use it. I also still have to figure out why the cooling system is pressurizing. Here's the electric water pump I'm looking at: http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_Wat...ps-content.aspx Here's a radiator that might work: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/GRI-1-25241-T/ Add a SPAL fan and some type of fan/waterpump controller and I might be done. -George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 If I were you I'd look at getting the spare one rebuilt - or at least pursue a price. Much cleaner solution that the electric pump - although if we can no longer get a pump and a rebuild isn't possible the electric option is definitely an option. Gut all the fan stuff off it and run it just as the pulley. I did it with just hand tools - now I'd pay a machinist to really cut it down to just the pulley. I'd like to see that electric pump replace the existing one rather than splicing into the lower rad hose as they indicate. So I'd want to mod an old pump so that was just an inlet and an outlet that you could then hook the pump up too. If you did go electric - belts would then just be the one that runs the alternator and the power steering. Neat concept for sure - gotta look into it more. As for the rad - you linked one that was only 15" high - I'd spend a bit more and do the 19" high one if it fit. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/GRI-1-55242-X/?rtype=10 I'd also look at having a metric bung added to the rad to fit the stock rad temp sensor. All the wiring is already there, sensors work great and are VW replaceable so they're easy to find and replace. Run the brush wire to the electric rad fan (+) and it's done. I'd bet you could get the bung from Griffin itself - then just get it tig'd on at a welding shop. I'm also going to be making new rad hoses out of large size household copper plumbing. I did this when I swapped in a PRV V6 into my first Peugeot 504, and it worked perfectly. Now I'll clean them up and likely get them powder coated before putting them in - but even as is the copper didn't corrode. I would highly recommend something similar if you go to all the trouble of refurbishing the water pump and rad. Gotta figure out the pressurizing issue though. Something as simple as a bike pump with a gauge on that over flow nipple should be enough to show if the head is cracked. Just don't go over 20 psi or so. Can't do it with the rad hooped though - that sucks. Only other option is to seal off the rad hoses and make a piece that you can insert into the top rad hose that seals tight and can take an air fitting. Pressurize the engine cooling system that way maybe... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick@nite Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 We have one in the race car, We have this one from summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRE-342AA/?rtype=10 did have 2 cut the inlet and out and sleeve them smaller. The smaller Griffen with 15" is 2" thick and the larger one is 3" thick... I know it's a very tight fit with the Howe rad I have also being 3" thick aswell. And rad switch is hooked to a toggle switch with a electric fan... The N9T cars are equipped with big cooling systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 7, 2010 Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 Nick - any pics of the install? Real pics - not cell pics please... Also - if you make new "hoses" from copper there would be no need to resize the rad inlet and outlets. I'd love to silicone rad hoses or be able to make something up - but without a local supplier to shop for stuff I think copper with silicone ends will be the way to go for me. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geo Posted February 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2010 Nick - any pics of the install? Real pics - not cell pics please... Also - if you make new "hoses" from copper there would be no need to resize the rad inlet and outlets. I'd love to silicone rad hoses or be able to make something up - but without a local supplier to shop for stuff I think copper with silicone ends will be the way to go for me. Rabin Thanks for your input guys. I did find a phone number for Flying Dutchman water pump repair by looking up a cached version of the website - 1(888)595-1110. I got voicemail, so we'll see if he calls back Monday. -George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick@nite Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 Nick - any pics of the install? Real pics - not cell pics please... Also - if you make new "hoses" from copper there would be no need to resize the rad inlet and outlets. I'd love to silicone rad hoses or be able to make something up - but without a local supplier to shop for stuff I think copper with silicone ends will be the way to go for me. Rabin Rabin the 505 RC is @ the storage unit stored away with my 2 GTI's and boat but the next time I swing out that way I'll try to bring a REAL camera if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dane Posted February 10, 2010 Report Share Posted February 10, 2010 Just yesterday i pulled a radiator out of a old 1980s bmw and put that in my n9t and it works great. got it for $20 and pull-a-part :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geo Posted February 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 Just yesterday i pulled a radiator out of a old 1980s bmw and put that in my n9t and it works great. got it for $20 and pull-a-part :-) Thanks for the information. Can you tell me exactly which BMW? -George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest italiogem76 Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Just yesterday i pulled a radiator out of a old 1980s bmw and put that in my n9t and it works great. got it for $20 and pull-a-part :-) i was thinking either volvo or bmw too especially volvo since my peugeot is a prv engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Rads are very easy to swap out - just find one that fits, and has the inlet and outlet in roughly the same place. My 504 V6 conversion had a Chrysler new yorker rad in it just because it fit dimensionally. Simple bracket on the bottom and top to locate. Simple to even rewire the car to fit the rad temp sensor if you grab the wiring with it. Just some time with a measuring tape in a salvage place that had all the rads in a big rack inside. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dane Posted February 14, 2010 Report Share Posted February 14, 2010 I don't know what the model was but i know it was a 80's BMW, what Rabin said is very true i just went to a junk yard and started looking in cars to see if one had a radiator would fit and has the inlet and outlet on the right sides. i went there with no idea of what kind of car i was going to pull it out of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryancohnracing Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 A note about electric water pumps: They Work! Not just for racing, but very well thank you on hot rods, street cars, trucks, etc. Highly recommend in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 I agree Bryan - but with the examples you provided they all have purpose built solutions that replace the existing belt driven pump with a bolt on electric one. (From the ones I've installed anyway) The one linked here just goes into the lower rad hose and that just seems hokey. It'd be a much better solution if there was a way to remove or somehow integrate it better IMHO - otherwise getting the regular WP rebuilt seems like the better solution. Any response from the Flying Dutchman? http://www.fdrbp.com/ site is back up. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geo Posted February 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2010 I agree Bryan - but with the examples you provided they all have purpose built solutions that replace the existing belt driven pump with a bolt on electric one. (From the ones I've installed anyway) The one linked here just goes into the lower rad hose and that just seems hokey. It'd be a much better solution if there was a way to remove or somehow integrate it better IMHO - otherwise getting the regular WP rebuilt seems like the better solution. Any response from the Flying Dutchman? http://www.fdrbp.com/ site is back up. Rabin I did talk to Tony at The Flying Dutchman. Super nice guy. I have to check my notes, but I think he said $95 to rebuild it. I've been preoccupied with work and driving a rental car, so I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet - repair it or go electric. -George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 18, 2010 Report Share Posted February 18, 2010 Good to know George - thanks for the update. If I find a spare pump I think I'm going to send it in to keep as a spare. My 505 T is my DD so I don't want to be down for how long it would take to send in and rebuilt... Now where did I leave that spare one... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dane Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 I have an extra water pump from an 86 505turbo $55 plus shipping and its yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Thanks Dane - but I'm just after a good core to send in to get rebuilt... I'm pretty sure I have a good used one, but if I'm going to all the work of installing one - I want it to be at least rebuilt. I hate doing a bunch of work only to have an old part fail again. Ask me how my used heater fan off e-bay is working... What I really need to do is to find a solution to the hose that mounts to the top of the WP - mine is in crappy shape and the old trim the end and refit isn't the best since the hose itself is in rough shape. Sadly the days of a shop keeping stock are gone - so you gotta order by part number - I just want to look at a bunch that might work and find something that fits. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick@nite Posted March 2, 2010 Report Share Posted March 2, 2010 I'm back from Panama, and the shop has been slow so my dad went over and got the racecars from the storage shop and rebuilt the tranny in the #45 505 and my tranny for my car is waiting on a couple of bearings.... but here are some pic's... The 505 is going down to get dynoed and set for fueling soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryancohnracing Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 Here is a link to the type of electric water I have used in the past: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productde....asp?RecID=4899 This is a universal fit for any car. Simply fits in line. I'm am pleased to hear the the Flying Dutchman is still around. Thanks for the rad photos Nic. Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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