Camshafts

[Trevor]

Has anybody tried to have any camshafts made up for the 505 turbo other than the danielson spec cam?

I recently installed the danielson cam back into my car and wasn't too impressed with the results. I still have some more testing to do with it before i make any final conclusions...but here's the story... With stock boost levels and 10 btdc timing, the comparison of the stock and danielson cam just doesn't look very good. Gtech shows a loss of about 25 ft lbs peak, and WAY more usable torque down low. There is torque loss all the way until 4600 rpm, and even after 4600, torque isn't sifnificantly higher than stock. It revs slightly harder through the high rpms and doesn't die off all the way to 6000, however it doesn't get anywhere quicker than before, and i've lost gobs of torque and drivability. I would expect torque not to PEAK 30 ft lbs below stock levels with a good performance cam... The 'feeling' of the car confirms all of the numbers. It actually feels slower than it did before, but does pull a little bit harder 'way' up high.

This isn't what i remembered from the last time i installed it. The conditions were different back then however. I was running about 17 psi boost on the stock cam, and switched over to the danielson cam (which ran about 15 -16 psi up high with the same boost setting... it likes to suck that air in up high!). The results were very good as i gained 25+ horsepower and about 25 ft lbs torque all the way from about 4300rpm to 6,000. I did lose a bit down low of course but considering the gains it was nothing to complain about. I would have expected the same results (% wise) from lower boost levels, however what i got was just slower car with less usable power almost across the board. Is this to be expected? It seems to me like the response of boost changes should be almost linear (within a reasonable range, ignoring effects of heat and such). So why would a cam respond well to high boost and not to low boost? Maybe i'm overlooking something.

If anything i expected this cam to boost performance quite a bit more than normal, considering that after the motor rebuild and all the work i did the car was running excellent numbers compared to its previous life. It was running about 200 ft lbs and 165 hp to the wheels at 11 psi boost. This is comparable to running it at about 14 or so psi back in the day before the rebuild/porting/intercooler, etc with the stock cam. So there have been improvements here and there and i thought the danielson cam would also reflect these.

So... any ideas, comments? I've only run 1 gtech run with the new camshaft, but i plan on runing more, and upping the boost a bit to see what happens. At this point i would almost rather put the stock cam in, but i don't like how bad it tails off up high. I was thinking of an 'in between' version that would retain some of the low end torque but allow the motor to rev up with a vengence.

[Bean]

Hey Trevor,

That sucks man.... Although I wouldn't put so much weight on the G-Tech numbers. It's a very accurate machine - but variances are common when testing against previous results. Temp, baro pressure, weight etc etc all change from one test to another so unless you do back to back testing - take the results with a grain of salt.

As for your idea for a combination cam - I've talked to the guys at Shadbolt cams (where John had his re-ground) and I was going to let the experts there take a look at both the stock cam and the Danielson spec to see if they could come up with a "tow" cam of sorts. Something that just tweaks the stock specs to give more performance - but not really shifting the band up too much.

I'm after gut wrenching torque low down - something with an incredible hole shot - so peak power doesn't interest me. (Although reving to 6000+ would be cool too!)

Keep us posted on further testing - because I agree with you on thinking the numbers should be better, but not sure why they don't show up...

Do you think that you're not seeing improvements because you're not stuffing enough air into the engine to realise more power with the Dani cam? Think it NEEDS big boost so that it can show it's improved air flow characteristics? Just guessing - but it kinda makes sense...

Rabin

[Trevor]

Yea i try to trust the gtech as little as possible but the big problem here is that seat-of-pants feel really confirms the poor numbers.

So do you have a cam in the works from shadbolt?

Maybe it does need the extra boost to surpass the limitations of the stock cam and start seeing performance gains... But for some reason i feel that in this case, the performance cam should increase performance regardless of boost level. Maybe this just isn't true though. I'm definitely going to turn up the boost a little and see how it roars. I shouldn't say it's "SLOW" because well.. it's really not, I just had much higher hopes for it. It was less of a 'performance gain' as it was a 'performance change' if that makes any sense... :-p

[Bean]

No cam in the works per se... I was going to provide them with a stock cam and the Dani specs and then let them figure out what works best. The guys sound like they really know their shite - and it's the only thing the machine shop does.

I spoke to the owner on the phone and he said after 30+ years in the business he just "knows" what's going to work, and he knows what kinds of things to tweek to give certain results.

I'm sure I could learn the basics of cam design and come up with something - but that doesn't come close to the kind of experience these guys have. (He mentioned giving an XN6 a different grind that really woke the engine up - something he just came up with based on work he did on another engine... Sounded promising.)

I guess another option would be to investigate other cam profiles to see what works - not ideal, but the Turbo Dodge 2.2L Turbo and the 2.5L Turbo are very close engine spec wise - so a comparison of their cam profiles might be in order to see what direction that would take us.

I have 3 stock cams to play with - so one will be kept stock, and the other two can be used for experiment grinds.

Actually - it just occured to me that there may be some engine building software that we could play with... I'll have to check out the web - but I'm sure I remember reading about some engine bench building software that was pretty accurate - just not sure if it catered to v8 muscle or if it could do turbo -4's as well.

Might be a way to play around with ideas and be somewhat informed...

[august]

when you first got the car, and put in the cam you said you got a 25+ hp and torque increase right? and now, with similar boost levels then before, its a loss in power?

and just so i'm clear, when you did the switch before, what else was changed, just the cam? no more fuel, boost, plugs, timing, anything like that?

if all was the same, then something has seriously changed, could it be all the porting? maybe like bean said, once you turn up the boost, it'll lift the front wheels off the ground har har har

the theory on the stock cam hurting performance at stock boost levels i'm not buying. both cars i've run the danielson cam in have increased in power in both low and high boost.. the current car with the D cam was running 10psi and a .36 turbo during engine breakin. after i started giving it some gas, it has some serious power, even at 10psi.

with the increased flow from porting, maybe the A/F ratio at stock boost levels with 804 injectors was correct. now you've just increased the quantity air again with the cam, which means it's got to be a lot leaner. what about throwing in the 400cc injectors you had, and doing some more runs with the same boost levels. (sure would be nice to see what kind of advance your running at WOT). detach the knock sensor for a quick run and see if you get any power gains then.. hahahahahah

how's that wideband o2 project coming along?

[Trevor]

haha, good points. I agree that its ridiculous that i'd get no gains out of that cam. It doesn't make sense that i'd need high boost to see gains. When i changed it the first time it was only the cam i changed, nothing else. For reference, the power numbers: Stock cam vs dani cam: (11 psi)

Stock vs Dani

166.6 hp vs 165.5 hp

200 ft lbs. vs 170 ft lbs.

Somethin is not right. Wideband would be wonderful.... and the ability to change fuel maps, timing maps, mmmmmmm. I've made some changes on the car (boost, timing), more info soon hopefully..

[Bean]

Just out of curiousity - what do you have the base timing set at? Is the distributor advancing timing as you rev it? Any chance the knock sensor is pulling timing? Bad gas?

(I'm just brain storming...)

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that just the cam should show an increase in power. Your powerband should have moved up - but you should still see an improvement.

From what I've heard - the Dani cam improved midrange and top end, but the stock cam feels better down low - can you guys confirm that's accurate? (When it's working right that is...)

[Trevor]

timing was set at 10 base, it does advance when revved so microswitch and all that is a-ok. I just advanced it to 12 base, we'll see how that works ;-).

I guess it depends on what you call midrange, but the danielson cam does help from about 4000 on up to redline normally, below that range isn't so hot. It pulls ok in the very high 3000 range, so i guess it would be safe to say it helps mid-high range. It definitely doesn't have the balls of the stock cam down low.

[august]

From what I've heard - the Dani cam improved midrange and top end, but the stock cam feels better down low - can you guys confirm that's accurate? (When it's working right that is...)

i would agree with trevor here.. for me, it seems like the power has fully kicked in by 4500rpm according to the my ass dyno. driving around town though is a chore.

i was wathing rally australia last night, and i saw solberg bog the car out of a turn. i'm pretty sure it was accidential because it hurt him pretty bad. i was AMAZED at the powerband, it just sat there at the low rpm. it sounded like 2500, 2600, 2700, 2800, 2900, 3000 -> then INSTANT 6000. it seriously seemed like a two stroke dirt bike.