V-M Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I have used these -> http://www.amworks.com/irtokannet.htm Easy to install and woks nicely. Basically same idea as Johnny is using, originell bottom and this to top. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 1 step forward and 2 backward.... I mentioned earlier that alot of smoke came from the engine, I have located the problem now. It's the exhaust manifold that's leaking. One stud was broken in 2, one stud was missing and the hole was like 8-9mm large. So I remove the turbo+manifold and I notice that the gasket used is probably for a Murena (one hole less). Great combination... I've made the big hole into an M10 and I'll try to get out the broken stud tomorrow. And there is some problem with the alternator, the little red battery on the dash is glowing. Battery-voltage at idle is roughly 12.5V, and with a little higher rev 13.5V. The coal's (better word?) are fine, the copper-track is fine, the diodes are all ok in the alternator, and there is no problem with the cable from the battery-lamp to the alternator. Any suggestions?? I've removed most of the AC-system now, I got tired of those big hoses always being in the way. You guy's in the USA may think I'm crazy, but I'm very pleased that I finally made up my mind and got it out of the way. It's for sale if anyone wants it btw. Fixed the handbrake-cables I have too, replaced one and I was able to get the other running smooth with alot of old oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 coals = brushes It sounds like everything is running properly, and the altenator sounds fine if it's outputting that. Is the battery OK? What about connections and grounds for the battery and altenator? I'd pull the battery negative cable while it's running to see if the car continues to run... If it does then the charging circuit should be fine. I've also planned to rid my car of the AC - even had the system properly evacuated of all freon just in case. Loses a lot of weight - plus leaves more room for the FMIC... Hopefully this summer has lots of progress on all our 505's! Can't wait to see how it pans out for all of us - especially me since I'm finally going to be wrenching on mine! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 The battery is about 3 months old (used in my DD). Ground and + is OK to the alternator. When I've relocated the battery I will have plenty of room for FMIC and plumbing. I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes with your car Rabin, I hope I can get mine on the road this summer. Oh and I forgot to mention, when I removed the turbo I broke one ignition-cable and the accordion hose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Bought some stuff too: Injectors #0280155830, 347cc/min @ 3bar Turbo-electrovalve Saab 9000IC Unfortunetly the IC got broken under the shipping, but I'll probably buy another one and make a double when I find someone that can weld it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 That IC is huge - and if you make it double that will be some pretty crazy cooling! If you want to look at repairing that tank - you might be able to find a body shop that uses a product similar to Lords Fusor #152. I'm using this stuff to fix the ABS fairings on my motorcycle and it's amazing stuff. Bonds REALLY well, and when sanding it - you can't tell the difference between the existing black ABS and this stuff. Going double works too - but fixing this would allow you to install and use it till then. So are going to be using MS to control the electrovalve? Should be a neat project for sure! I'm meeting my friend with the turbo dodge's tonight to pick up the parts for the ECU swap on the Peugeot. I have an 85 Turbo that has some sort of electronic glitch and it won't fire - so the plan is to use it as a guinea pig for the install. If it works - I'll continue to use it to practice tuning the ECU to see if it's worth the effort. That way if I blow it up it's not a big deal. The TD ECU controls the boost electronically as well - even has provisions to limit boost till a certain engine temp is reached... Should be a busy summer for sure! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 I agree, that can be fixed. IC is same as I have installed on my project car. But why those injectors? Same output as originel? Are those high or low impedance? V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Huge is great! I've already ordered another IC, so I'll probably use it for the summer instead and make a double the next winter or so. They are pretty cheap, about $75 each. Yep, I'll use MS to control the electrovalve. I've found settings from a guy on some forum that used the same electrovalve so it will be pretty easy to set up. That Dodge ECU sounds interesting, is it easy to tune with a computer? I'm sure that it's possible to make MS limit the boost based on diffrent parameters like engine temp and air temp, it'll probably just need some learning about making the code. I hope that this summer I'll actually be doing the fun part of my little project instead of just fixing boring problems. I agree, that can be fixed. IC is same as I have installed on my project car. But why those injectors? Same output as originel? Are those high or low impedance? V-M No, my injectors are the 802's. I haven't checked if they are high or low impedance but that's not an issue. If they are high I'll just remove the resistors in series with the original. Btw, why haven't you replyed to my pm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 That Dodge ECU sounds interesting, is it easy to tune with a computer? I'm sure that it's possible to make MS limit the boost based on diffrent parameters like engine temp and air temp, it'll probably just need some learning about making the code. The ECU needs to be taken apart, the stock chip de-soldered and then socketted. Once that's done you use a chip burner to burn new calibrations to it. There's also a way to install a chip that can be reflashed on the board via a cable that's installed. Not sure if I want to go that far though. Changing chips is easy enough. A couple guys have installed larger memory chips, and then stored multiple maps that can be switched from one to another with the cruise control on/off input on the ECU. Tuning is done by changing the values in the storage bins. So it's not intuitive or graphical like MS - but it's really well documented so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. You can change the parameters for the size of injectors via scaling, the map sensor amount, and you can change the timing curves. It's got incredible resolution - MUCH higher than MS (100x100 grid or something crazy like that) and it's been used extensively on the 2.2L and the 2.5L engines - so I should be able to use stock maps already available as a start. The ECU also controls the cooling fans, boost, and like I mentioned before - also has safe guards to prevent max boost when cold. Guys that have used this ECU on Ford 2.3 Turbo engines gained close to 50 HP without doing any tuning at all! So I'm pretty sure with some tuning it should really open the possibilities up on a stock motor, and help realize some really impressive numbers on a built engine. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Cool, it's pretty cheap too if I remember right? It sounds like it would be very labor-intensive to map with a 100x100 grid though, why would you need such high resolution? I don't really understand why people would like 2 separate maps for the same engine, if the engine has been properly mapped then fueleconomy would be good in part-load and the only thing that matters is the weight of the right foot. +50 hp on a stock engine with no tuning is very unrealisticly IMHO so I don't really belive that unless I see some proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 yep - it's essentially free for me since I'll be getting the parts from friends. The high resolution is because it's a factory ECU that was hacked. It's already filled - so if any changes need to be made it will just be to a targertted area. If say I run different injectors then the entire table can simply be scaled. I've seen a Pectel stand alone ECU tuned when working on a Ford RS200 - and the resolution that was available was astounding - so I know the good stand alones do have a lot of resolution for fine tuning. As for having multiple maps - I can think of a lot of reasons to have multiple maps - the biggest that comes to mind is fuel. Running race fuel at the track would allow you to run a much different map for max power. Same thing for running regular if you wanted to save $$$ or needed to in certain areas. I think it would also be handy for testing purposes if you were trying different things out. As for the gains - I can believe it quite easily on a turbo motor (it controls boost as well right - so that's just a few psi). I don't have the need or the inclination to prove it though as I don't really care. I want the ability to customize the engine parameters - so what it does stock is just a bonus. I will have my 86' running the stock system, and the 85 running the Dodge ECU - so I'll try to do some back to back g-Tech tests just for fun if it all works as planned. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 But to scale it you need to tune it with the injectors you have first before you switch. I can imagine that it would need tuning in more than one targeted area, even if the map you're using is from a similar engine. It probably have different cam profiles, valves, intake manifold, etc. All those little differences add up. I didn't mean that higher resolution was bad, I just ment that it would take longer time for us hobbyists to tune and I don't think you don't need that last fine tuning if it's just a hobbycar. It's different if it's a pure racecar and you're competiting. (no idea what you're going to use your car to) Hehe, I didn't think about different fuels but it's annoying when some people think that 2 maps are the key to fuel economy. (I didn't say that you do) I can belive the 50hp gain too if you raise the boost a bit, but I thought by "no tuning at all" you ment that the boost was the same before and after. It would be cool to see some back-to back testing, I hope the L-jet is really bad Those RS200's are monsters, aspecially the group b rally cars. I want one of those Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 But to scale it you need to tune it with the injectors you have first before you switch. I will be using everything from the Turbo Dodges - so sensors, TB, injectors, heated O2 sensor, and the electronic wastegate solenoids. Anything and everything for the ECU to run the Peugeot engine as if it was a Turbo Dodge - so I'm guessing there will be minimal tuning needed. I could be wrong - but I'm pretty sure it should be decent from the start. I can imagine that it would need tuning in more than one targeted area, even if the map you're using is from a similar engine. It probably have different cam profiles, valves, intake manifold, etc. All those little differences add up. Possibly - but I'm quite confident it will run fine. I will however be tweaking the ECU to optimize it to get it's fullest potential after I rebuild the engine. It'll be interesting to see how it runs with the stock mapping for the dodges though. I didn't mean that higher resolution was bad, I just ment that it would take longer time for us hobbyists to tune and I don't think you don't need that last fine tuning if it's just a hobbycar. It's different if it's a pure racecar and you're competiting. (no idea what you're going to use your car to) The goal for me with this car is to flex my talent as a race mechanic - building the fastest 505 Turbo I can with the limited resourses available to me. The car will eventually compete in time attack and eventually rally if I can swing the cash - but it will definitely be tuned every bit as much as a race car. Hehe, I didn't think about different fuels but it's annoying when some people think that 2 maps are the key to fuel economy. (I didn't say that you do) Where did I reference fuel economy? If the car gets 10L/100km on premium, or you can run regular and get the same economy with a differnet map - it's just cheaper to use regular. I agree with your statement about a good tune being efficient if you keep your foot out of it - but a good tune can not compensate for a lower grade fuel. I can belive the 50hp gain too if you raise the boost a bit, but I thought by "no tuning at all" you ment that the boost was the same before and after. I said no tuning since I was referring to running the stock Dodge ECU as it was - without touching it. The Dodge tune will do 14 psi I believe stock. It would be cool to see some back-to back testing, I hope the L-jet is really bad Me too! I'm going through a lot of work - so I better see some stellar results! Those RS200's are monsters, aspecially the group b rally cars. I want one of those The RS200 I worked on made the Group B ones tame little pussy cats in comparison. This one had 900 HP! Likely double what they were running in rally back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 I will be using everything from the Turbo Dodges - so sensors, TB, injectors, heated O2 sensor, and the electronic wastegate solenoids. Anything and everything for the ECU to run the Peugeot engine as if it was a Turbo Dodge - so I'm guessing there will be minimal tuning needed. I could be wrong - but I'm pretty sure it should be decent from the start. I dont know, but that's just my initial thoughts when taking an ECU from a different engine. There's no doubt in my mind that it isn't a good place to start though. Possibly - but I'm quite confident it will run fine. I will however be tweaking the ECU to optimize it to get it's fullest potential after I rebuild the engine. It'll be interesting to see how it runs with the stock mapping for the dodges though. I'm curios too how it will run with the stock map, it would be truly awesome if it would run better than the L-jet without any tuning. The goal for me with this car is to flex my talent as a race mechanic - building the fastest 505 Turbo I can with the limited resourses available to me. The car will eventually compete in time attack and eventually rally if I can swing the cash - but it will definitely be tuned every bit as much as a race car. Ok, then you should have pretty much the tool you need for engine management in the Turbo Dodge ECU! How will you be mapping it? On the road or on a dyno? Btw, does it control ignition? Where did I reference fuel economy? If the car gets 10L/100km on premium, or you can run regular and get the same economy with a differnet map - it's just cheaper to use regular. I agree with your statement about a good tune being efficient if you keep your foot out of it - but a good tune can not compensate for a lower grade fuel. YI just used this public forum to display my irritation, it had nothing to do with you. I totally agree with you that a good tune doesn't compensate for lower fuelgrades, perhaps I didn't make that clear in my last post. I said no tuning since I was referring to running the stock Dodge ECU as it was - without touching it. The Dodge tune will do 14 psi I believe stock. I see. The RS200 I worked on made the Group B ones tame little pussy cats in comparison. This one had 900 HP! Likely double what they were running in rally back in the day. Holy cow, that's insane! It will be like my Peugeot when I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Yes - it controls everything! Fuel, ignition, boost, cooling fans, cruise control, uses a detonation sensor to retard timing on knock, AC compressor, charging system, fuel pump and that's how far I've gotten so far. I'm hoping to merge as many existing systems into the ECU control since it also manages the instumentation binacle in the Dodges. So I need to splice into the existing systems so that it's an integrated install. (IE The check engine light will now be the little yellow LED on the dash) If it goes to plan - the car will look and function like a production car. Sadly mapping it on a dyno isn't possible since we don't have a dyno in my city. So I'll likely do most of my tuning on the track. We have test and tunes with my car club where we rent a track all day. Hardly anyone uses this - so you essentially get an open track for as long as you want. It's not very big at 0.9 KM - but it's enough to run the car through it's range underl load. I'll be using a WBO2 initially just to see what it's like out of the box, then using EGT once I start tuning the built motor to dial it in. I've been really impressed with this stock MAP based ECU, and if it allows me to tune this motor like a stand alone ECU - this should be a VERY potent combo. Tuned Turbo Dodges can hit 300 FWHP quite easily - but are hampered by a poor head that has crappy flow. Let it control the N9TE and it should really be able to shine. August's head flow numbers exceeded the numbers my buddy had for his "stage 3" head by a huge margin - so I'm sure there is a lot of potential in these engines. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 I've started to make an adjustable cam sprocket, V-M style. The holes look funny because the closest endmill I had was 6mm. I should have made the plate too, but I didn't have any material. Hopefully I can get the plate made tomorrow. I modded a compressor-housing slightly, the intention was to make universial hoses fit a little better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 I modded a compressor-housing slightly, the intention was to make universial hoses fit a little better. Thats originel turbo inhousing? If you like to get maximum out from that then modify those sharp edges from inside. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Yep, that's the original housing. Which edge do you mean, the one at the end of the taper or the one at the beginning of the inlet, or both? Could it be benificial to make that taper longer and less steep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Ideally you want it shaped like a velocity stack so that the air accelerates as it enters. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Ideally could be "cone" modell. Air speed in magimum just before it hits wheel. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 I did like you guys said, but I screwed up a bit. I took too much so the radius was machined a bit (picture 3 & 4). Any idea of what effect that will have? Btw, what do you gain by making this cone? I finished the plate for the adjustable cam sprocket today, just needs some marks and glass blasting. How thick was your plate, V-M? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 It looks great! Not sure how much was taken off, but it looks to be minimal. You just need to finish the "velocity stack" off by transitioning that edge inside the turbo so that it blends nice with the curve of the existing housing. If it was a nice sharp edge you could leave it - but since it's still part of that inside curve I'd blend it. Velocity stack So while it's not crazy in gains - it does have some effect. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted March 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 Thanks! I took off maybe half of the radius, it's where the "tube" begins to radius outwards. I think you refer to it as curve. The inside facing the impeller hasn't been machined by me, so that edge I think you're talking about is OEM. I don't expect any huge gains, I'm basicly just doing this for fun and because I can. Does it effect response or max flow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 Does it effect response or max flow? Theoretically both. At least it should not do anything negative effect. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 I put an arrow to the edge I was referring too... Looks great though! So where are you doing this work? I'd love to have access to that kind of equipment! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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