Under trunk fuel tank...

[Bean]

I've been thinking a lot about the tank options, and it occured to me that if getting the tank shipped here from Finland proves too much of a hassle (which I think it would!), then another option would be to put in a racing fuel cell. (One with a decent size so I still have some range.)

I'll have to price out options and stuff - but it might be a decent option that allows me to place it where it will be most effective - and still be able to use the passenger side fuel door.

Between that and relocating the battery - the car should have excellent balance.

I wonder if they make cells that are divided. Have the option to run race gas on one side and unleaded on the other. Then you could have the high boost setting configured for C16 and be able to run accordingly...

Thoughts? Comments?

Rabin

[august]

I think a fuel cell would be a good idea, but it seems like getting the weight lower would be more important then a wider/larger (?) polar moment.

interesting how far back they mounted the cell in this race car.. trying to get all the weight as far back as possible?

[Bean]

And that's a huge ass battery too...

I wonder if they tossed the altenator and ran a total loss electrical system...

I also agree on the lower the better (tank location) for handling. In my case I'm thinking the passenger rear side so that the filler can go straight down into it. (Plus it's opposite the driver) The ones I've seen have a 1.5" lip that sits on the trunk floor - so you cut the hole in the trunk floor and the tank drops down into the hole and you secure it with the lip.

I know there's a guy in town that is building alloy tanks, and has built one for a buddy - now I just need to see if he can build a 60L or so tank. If it is something I can get built - then I'd look at setting up a tank with a "reserve" tank of say 10L that I could keep filled with race gas.

Flick a switch and have ready access to fuel that would support say a different map with higher peak boost.

That'd be a sweet mod for a daily driver...

Rabin

[Guest]

About the tank location on that racer: the factory "data sheet" of the 505 ti eurospec states that the weight distribution is 720kg on the front axle and 610kg on the rear axle, so maybe the racing team is trying to get that even.

[Bean]

I don't think I've ever weighed the 505 Turbo - but I did find out that at buddy of mine has access to some corner weight scales from his circle track race club... I'll definitely be make use of that when I start relocating stuff like the battery and fuel tank.

I weighed my 504 V6, and the fr/rr ratio was pretty damn good at 53/47 - that was with a battery relocated to the rear right corner and no driver. Stock ratings had the car at 51/49.

When I relocated the battery to my truck - I'm also thinking that the battery box should be recessed into the trunk floor as well so that the weight it not only moved back - but down as well.

Depending on the weight on each wheel - I could size the battery accordingly. (I'm currently running a very slim Honda style battery in the front. Saves some decent weight.)

Rabin

[august]

good idea on dropping it down Bean. isn't there a bunch of space under that right rear corner of the trunk?

[Bean]

Right now - the vague plan in my head says to locate the tank on the passenger side so that I can use the existing fuel tank door and such - plus it's opposite the driver.

I'd likely have to place the battery on the driver side because of the tank - and the plan for the exhaust is to run right out the middle. Initially I wanted the 3" exhaust to come right out the rear valence panel, and through the bumper - but I might do a 3" mandrel bend and have it point straight down - something that stays out of sight. With it pointing down it will also be quieter - since the sound has to reflect off the ground first.

The Lancia Delta Intergrale I drove had the exhaust like that and I really liked it - sounded awesome as well.

Rabin

[505T]

Bean, you have a 504 V6?

[Bean]

That was my first car. Stuffed a 604 V6 4-sp into my 76 504 SL auto sedan when I was 17.

It was a DAMN fine car, but she passed away from rust. I still have the engine and tranny in my garage (17 years later!)

I now have a 76 504 SL sedan with an 81 505 SR euro spec XN1 engine and 5-sp tranny. It runs beautifully.

I also have an 83 504 Wagon with no motor.

Now the dilema - In my garage I have all the goodies to swap one of the cars to a Weber equipped V6 with Renault exhaust manifolds, 5-sp tranny, and 505 Turbo suspension - so I have to decide which car gets which. A sleeper V6 504 wagon would be an awesome summer family car - and that's the direction I'm leaning since the 505 Turbo is going to be my slalom monster.

Just need to figure out the pro's and cons of each - but I'm leaning to the V6 wagon since the sedan is such a sweet runner with the XN1 - it just needs a nice Weber 38 DGV to wake it up a bit more...

First project to get running well though is the 505 Turbo. Once that's well on it's way as the summer daily driver - then I get to start the restorations of the classic cars.

The 2 504's and the 505 Turbo are the only pugs I intend on keeping... forever...

[august]

we best find some damn aftermarket parts sources for the N9T (at leats) if your planning on keeping those things for ever.

intake manifold gasket

exhaust manifold gasket

pan gasket

rod bearings

etc

etc

etc

maybe when the time comes, we can start looking in the talbot / matra world.. yet i've got gasket sets for them before and they are like half the thickness..

the exhaust manifold seems like the next biggest hassle to source an alternative for.

[Bean]

The only parts that worry me are bearing shells, timing chain, timing chain tensioner - stuff that would be really hard to make or find comparible replacements. (They may not even be that hard to replace....)

Gaskets can be made quite easily, seals can be ordered by dimension, and if necessary machining the outside dimension to fit a different seal isn't that hard to do.

Pistons, rods, valves, cams etc etc can all be made fairly reasonably if you don't go all out hardcore race ready stuff.

I'm going to spend considerable effort finding and using other parts from other engine so that I can basically re-do the engine with readily available parts - and hopefully gain significant power potential to boot.

If that fails - then an engine swap will definitley be the way I go. For all the work necessary to fit an engine - I'd make sure it was a SWEET set up much like Metako's - not sure I'd stay with a turbo 4 though. A nice V6 or even a lightweight V8 would make for a very sweet car. (Think LS6 6-speed...

Half the fun for me is going to be the build process - the "family" car should suffice for transportation needs - the Pugs are just going to the ways that I vent my automotive engineer side that I always wanted to be!

[V-M]

Luckily tensioner is used also in diesel engines (can be used) and chain in used also in other brands. Chain can be longer cause it's easy to cut. Only big issue is those bearings! There is some solutions to cover but all of them are expensive ones. All other gaskets can be made/modified/replace easily except head gasket.

So in end:

In engine:

- Head gasket

- Bearing shells

Body:

- metal parts

- moulded rubber parts

Electrical:

- All boxes (only used ones available)

- Display modules (for old body <- 85)

etc...

V-M

[august]

I heard from someone in Seattle that one of the more experienced N9T 'specialists' there had found a toyota bearing which was interchangable with the N9T rod bearings (main bearings i thought he had a replacement for as well, but not sure). I'll have to try to find that cat's number.

[Bean]

August - that find for bearings shells would be GOLD!! Even knowing it's from a Toyota would help in finding a starting point. We should get Koll on that since he's a Toyota guy...

V-M - the head gasket shouldn't be that big of an issue since guys are using other materials quite readily. Even getting the block o-ringed is a possibility. I'm likely going to try a custom copper gasket - from what I hear both surfaces HAVE to be machined clean, and the gasket has to be coated with a special sealant. When this is done they are VERY leak proof and can hold a ton of boost.

I'm going to draw up the gasket in CAD, and then have it cut with a CNC water jet cutter. I've seen the results from this machine - and it's amazingly clean - almost looks machined.

As for the other stuff I'm not that big a stickler for orginality if the replacement is better than the original - so retrofitting other items that work better would be cool with me.

Rabin

[august]

Even getting the block o-ringed is a possibility.

o-ringed?

[Bean]

O-ringing the block is essentially grooving around all the water passages, and using special rubber o-rings to seal all the coolant passages. (Has to be high heat - I assume like the turbo to intake sealing o-rings)

The combustion chambers have grooves around them as well and special metal o-rings are used to seal the combustion chambers.

The RS200 Evo I worked had this done to the engine - but Geoff (The engine builder) said it was necessary since he built the engine to withstand 3.5 bar of boost! It made 900 HP at around 2.5 bar when they raced it at Pikes Peak... (They figured more than 900 would just take out the drivetrain)

I asked him about doing the same with a regular motor - and he said it would be fine - just labour intensive to source the pieces. Lots of trial and fit - and in their shop all the supplies were readily at hand. Any machine shop should be able to cut the grooves for the o-rings when the machine the block.

I also know that an old hot rodder trick was to groove around the pistons in the block, and "make" copper o-rings out of household electrical copper! (The same 14 ga wire in your house!) The just put in two rings and made sure the joins didn't overlap each other. It's said that it allowed the guys to run superchargers with stock head gaskets.

I asked him about doing the entire gaskte in copper as well and he's the one that said the stuff about machining everything, and make sure it's surgically clean on reassembly. I found out later about using the special copper sealant as well. Another option which I see a lot of now is a multi-layer steel head gasket for high performance engines. Those can be easily made like the copper head gaskets - but they have the embossed ridges to help in sealing that I'm not sure how you'd do manually.

[august]

aaaah, interesting!

so when people were using 14ga household copper, how deep were they grooving the head, do you know? hmmmm

[V-M]

Yes, I'm fully awear on these head gasket posibilities. But my point of view was "normal" engine builder/repairer. Those o-rings are also as factory build as different grooves. And can be used when you cut "chamber ring" off from normal gasket. And machine 1.2mm deep and 1mm wide place around cylinder. That is "normal" way what they do here in racing cars.

Rings

Using copper gasket is one solution but there is also challege cause it will leak untill you have tightend gasket ~10 times (yes I have done that)

But these solutions are mainly for those who like to get more hp. Okay, well this copper gasket can be one

after they have stopped to deliver those from factory.

Those Toyota shells are interesting? Only problem is if it's old (before 90's), toyota will not produce many parts any more (life cycle in Japan is 5years in car point of view). I did visit Toyotas museum in Tokyo couple of years back. And asked that issue, and reasoning was at Japan goverment is punishing those who use older cars (by heavy payments and inspection regulations).

V-M