krede Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 A friend of mine has (finally) agreed to sell me his spare turbo engine... thus I have decided to rebuild and modify this, rather then converting a Stock Murena 2.2. So please disregard all the previous questions I've come up with regarding the differences between the Murena and 505 engines (at least now I can really investigate into this subject... having two dismantled engines on my basement floor! ) The engine was replaced by a previous owner some 15 years ago , and though it supposedly ran up until it was pulled from the vehicle, we took it apart last Saturday to establish if it was usable or a complete wreck. Expecting to find a cracked cylinder head or cracked pistons we were positively surprised to find no apparent damage to either of these. Cylinder bores are without scratches and I hope that they are within tolerances and no machining is needed (I'll measure as soon as the gauge arrives from ebay ) At a glance cam doesn't seem too bad either, though I'll know for sure when I get the time to dismantle the cylinder head entirely. Only obvious damage is scratches at the crank big end bearings ... so I will need to have it grinded. Now first question.. the block has been stamped "I n9t" or something to that end. But the Id plates themselves are a bit of a mystery to me. The number 176 are found everywhere in my workshop manual, but it does nothing to establish exactly what mark of n9txx it is. (though most likely its an European engine..obviously) The pistons are spec "A" and look to be in good condition.They have the "8" shaped recesses, and I quickly measured them to be 3.3mm deep..... allowing a bit of artistic freedom I'd say they are 8:1 CR pistons. So if the cylinder bores checks out I will definitely want to use these.... if I am able to find a new set of piston rings that is.. Anybody know where I might be able to find any?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krede Posted December 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Right... removed the Camshaft this morning... And think I might have found the reason why the engine was discarded back them.. How is this for cam wear ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Can't help with your questions - but I think you're in a MUCH better postiion using a proper N9TE engine for your project. Hopefully V-M will step in and provide some insight. Cam wear is a little severe to say the least too! Hopefully there's enough to get re-ground, or you can find another for it. (Not sure if they can build it up and re-profile?) As for the CR - did the euro N9TE's even come with 8:1 ratio's? I thought the 85's N9T's were 7:1 and the 86+ N9TE's were 7.5:1 stock... (North American spec anyway) Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krede Posted December 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Yep... I hope to get in touch with V-M soon as It looks like I juuuuuuuuust might be needing another cam shaft This cam is a complete write off ... I've never seen cam wear that bad!! almost 3mm!! The rockers and the shafts for them are for the metal bin also...the rockers put up quite a struggle getting stuck on the shafts... and the shafts themselves are charred... I'm guessing an oil blockage of some kind.. or simply too poor quality engine oil. I have a pair of shafts from a Murena engine that I'll use in stead since they are identical to the 505 ones. Will need new rockers though. According to the data in the "resources" pages 3.5mm recesses indicate 8:1 cr... if Im correct the n9te's sold in Denmark were all rated at about 165hp where the US models were some some 10-15 hp less.... probably due to lower cr needed to run low octane fuel? (speculation) I actually doubt that the n9t's were ever sold In DK. However being able to prove the exact engine type would be of much value when I later have to get the engine conversion approved by the authorities . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Fast reply here... Sorry m8's I'm dam drunk rigth now... so I might to correct later... C is that latest one... 180hp version block. well actually no differencies anyway... thats 8:1 anyway. Lower comp rate was only for US, Swizerland and Sweden We can confirm that later... Cam... yes... that looks normal weared cam... I have those a lot. :-P (but can be fixed) Happy New Year 505 m8's! V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krede Posted January 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 C is that latest one... 180hp version block. well actually no differencies anyway... thats 8:1 anyway. Lower comp rate was only for US, Swizerland and Sweden We can confirm that later... Well the car this engine came out of might actually have been imported from Switzerland, as 505 turbos are almost non existent in Denmark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Right... removed the Camshaft this morning... And think I might have found the reason why the engine was discarded back them.. How is this for cam wear ? Looks like it wore through the case hardining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krede Posted January 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Indeed.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Indeed.... I always wondered how thick the casing was on foreign cars, you always hear about reground performance cams, so I thought must be pretty thick. Over here if you need performance or custom cam in most cases its avabile off the shelf for cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krede Posted January 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 The Stock Murena cam (which is almost identical to the 505 tubo cam), has a reputation for very thin case hardening, and as such will need to be re-hardened if reground. So my guess is that the 505 has the same issues. The cam modifier Ive spoken to in Denmark re-Harden the cams as a matter of cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Checked... that C is cr 8 engine. sweden swich engines have W in that place. I did test nitrated cam... not working at all. It's too hard and starts to wear right away. I did discuss with cam grinders about that and he confirmed ad in rocker cams it usually dont't work. With lifter type heads it works better. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krede Posted January 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Checked... that C is cr 8 engine. sweden swich engines have W in that place. I did test nitrated cam... not working at all. It's too hard and starts to wear right away. I did discuss with cam grinders about that and he confirmed ad in rocker cams it usually dont't work. With lifter type heads it works better. V-M So... do you mean that these cam's can't be reground? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Checked... that C is cr 8 engine. sweden swich engines have W in that place. I did test nitrated cam... not working at all. It's too hard and starts to wear right away. I did discuss with cam grinders about that and he confirmed ad in rocker cams it usually dont't work. With lifter type heads it works better. V-M Hmmm, the ZDJL engines crank has some sort of harding on it and you can only regrind it so far before it needs to be re-nitrated or whatever process they use I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yes, at least my grinder do it. Anything can be nitrated... for cam it did cost ~80e, cost is coming from weight so crank could be bit costly. But at least my experience fir nitrated cam was bad. I only drive 200km with good oil and I was allready started to penetrate trough nitrated part (they did fix it with out cost). Crank is different story and If I remeber right 505 diesel engine cranks were nitraed. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yes, at least my grinder do it. Anything can be nitrated... for cam it did cost ~80e, cost is coming from weight so crank could be bit costly. But at least my experience fir nitrated cam was bad. I only drive 200km with good oil and I was allready started to penetrate trough nitrated part (they did fix it with out cost). Crank is different story and If I remeber right 505 diesel engine cranks were nitraed. V-M Usually nitraded cranks wont need turning, though. The bearing take more of the beating if the oil is neglected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krede Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Right... I'm picking up mu cank tomorrow.. I've had it ground to +0.20 on both main and rod journals... now I'm concerned whether I should have told them to... well.. I don't know what exactly it is that they to to the crank to reharden them. And...what to do with a cam that needs to be re-cut/ground then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Right... I'm picking up mu cank tomorrow.. I've had it ground to +0.20 on both main and rod journals... now I'm concerned whether I should have told them to... well.. I don't know what exactly it is that they to to the crank to reharden them. And...what to do with a cam that needs to be re-cut/ground then? So what are you doing for main bearings? Have you confirmed they're the same bearings for the Matra 2.2 as the N9T motor? That seems to be the big stumbling problem for me - finding main bearings for the rebuild. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krede Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 So what are you doing for main bearings? Have you confirmed they're the same bearings for the Matra 2.2 as the N9T motor? That seems to be the big stumbling problem for me - finding main bearings for the rebuild. Rabin I believe V-M answered this question in an earlier post. But yes.. mains are exactly the same. I had a look at the workshop manual for the murena compared it with the specs in the N9Txx manual , and found journal and over/under sizes to be almost spot on. The values that are off, are only so by a few thousands of a mm (0.00x) Con rod bearings also have the same dimensions, but some 505 shells has hols for the oil squirtes. Murena bearings doesn't have those. Simon Has them in their webshop.. along with a few other things you might find of interest http://server4.gs-shop.de/200/cgi-bin/shop...m&PKEY=E9B1 If you browse through the site you'll find the spareparts book for the murena somewhere free to download. It might be a big help... many parts are the same. http://www.simon-auto.de/matra/englisch/kataloge.htm I don't think shipping to the US is any problem.. but I'd ask first.. Otherwise I'll be happy to assist. ps: I hope its ok to post these links.. If not, I suggest they be moved to the links section as they are very useful (especially if you own a murena ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Bearings are same. Drilling those con.rod ones is okay to do. Inform me also price... And I'll have a look again my storage N9T crank is not rehardened... And if it's nitrated it's recomend to use red metal (more copper) bearings and those are not available. But hardening is not realy needed... original bearings will do. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krede Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Both Rod and main bearings are 260 Euro for a set Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Dear GOD! Just to clarify - 260 euro for both sets - or for each set? If it's each set - That's ~ $850 CDN for bearings. I'll likely be stuck getting the main bearings, but if the crank is offset ground for more stroke then I can hopefully size up different rods and pistons... Thanks for the info - it's nice to know they're at least still available. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krede Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 It's for EACH set mate!.. and yes... its not exactly cheap!. "Playing"wit cars cost a lot more in Europe them it does in the states.. or Asia for that matter. That said... I think they are that expensive because they are a reproduction item by now. But if anybody know where I can get a hold of a set of +0.20 shells for mains and rods, please do tell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Pretty sure VM said those were the only bearings he had left when Johnny was looking. I've yet to split a bottom end open on an N9TE, so when I'm ready to start work on it I'll have to do some serious research on what I can get the rod journals offset ground to in order to use other rods. Ideally - if it was possible to machine it to use some chevy 350 rods or something stupid common off a V8 then costs go dramatically down. (Read a Volvo engine build up that used 350 rods and custom pistons - it was a stroked 2.6L engine that was supposed to be insanely powerful) Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krede Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Yahh... I don't want to mess too much about with the engine. My aim of 200-210hp should be in reach with stock bottom end, a t3/4 turbo and decedent engine programming. And besides.. I don't really think more power would be appropriate in this type of car. Cooling, clutch, brakes, gearbox etc would all give up if more power was applied.... not to mention that the car would be HIGHLY illegal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 There was a 1.6L Murena on Ebay in the states. Gorgeous little car - very unique. Did some more reading on them, and you're sure the transmission is going to hold that power? Once good thing about turbo power is it's less violent off the line - but still a lot of torque! The performance numbers with "just" 200 HP should be quite fun! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.