Talbot/Chrysler/Matra N9 parts interchangeability

[august]

Does anyone know how many of the parts from the 'other' N9 motors are interchangeable with the N9T?

I'm thinking mainly of rod bearings, but would imagine the rod + main bearings are a little beefier on the N/A N9 motors found in the Matra's?

(Matra murena is the one with the n9 right?)

i recently stumbeled across this, have yet to find any useful info though

http://www.thedutchconnection.com/cgi-bin/...B.pl#about_cars

[august]

hmmmm, the head looks similar as far as the gasket layout from what i can tell.. i wonder if we could find some *good* aftermarket gaskets

http://www.simon-auto.de/matra/englisch/kat_mur.htm

murena_1.6_-_2.2_engine_catalog.pdf

[Bean]

Great possibility...

It'd be fantastic if this was the answer to getting crank bearings and rod bearings... Timing chain and tensioners might also be useable...

Nice fine August...

Rabin

[V-M]

Bearings, chain, tensioner, oilpump etc... are same. I have a lot of those main bearings, con.rod bearings are bit harder to find.

V-M

[Toni Lindroos]

I have a Finnish 505 sales brochure from 1986 that says: "The block is equipped with a special lubrication system in which pistons are cooled with oil spraying. The power of the oil pump has also been increased to correspond larger load."

But as we know, there are no "oil spraying" used, so probably what they are saying about the oil pump is also incorrect. It could be possible that the oil spraying system is used on the competition versions of the engine and so is the more powerful oil pump.

I don't know if there were any (stock) Peugeot engine at all in 1986 that used oil spraying to cool pistons?

[Bean]

Wow - that's reassuring...

Can you tell me how much main bearings, con rod bearings, timing chain, and the timing tensioner would be? (Ideally a complete engine rebuilding kit?)

I'm looking to do a complete performance build up on the engine, and so far the plan is to use the 96mm Volvo pistons.

In your experience - is there anything to worry about the oil pump? Any other parts that should be considered for replacement?

As for the head gasket - I'll likely go with the copper gasket because of cost and it's known proven success in race engines, but if the cost for O-ringing the block is decent - that might be the ultimate way to go. (Race engine that I worked on could withstand 3 bar boost!)

The engine build up will most likely happen in a year from now - so no rush. I will start buying some stuff as it becomes available though if it's hard to find.

Thanks very much for the info guys!

Rabin

[V-M]

Do you mean price or availability?

Main -> ~150€ -> I have many sets

Con. -> ~150€ -> couple of sets

Tens. -> 60-80€ (XU diesel model) -> available widely

Chain -> 70-90€ -> not sure, but should be easy to find

Oil pump is easy to measure and I have lifted pressure by adding some spacers

behind of pressure regulator spring (1.5mm).

I would not use over 2bar boost on this engine, I'd don't believe at head will hold that. And surely not with 96mm pistons. IMHO

So with std gasget can do over 1bar (not tested).

V-M

[V-M]

I have a Finnish 505 sales brochure from 1986 that says: "The block is equipped with a special lubrication system in which pistons are cooled with oil spraying. The power of the oil pump has also been increased to correspond larger load."

But as we know, there are no "oil spraying" used, so probably what they are saying about the oil pump is also incorrect. It could be possible that the oil spraying system is used on the competition versions of the engine and so is the more powerful oil pump.

I don't know if there were any (stock) Peugeot engine at all in 1986 that used oil spraying to cool pistons?

←

I have opened ~10 N9T engines and none of them has that and I did try to find way to add that but didn't find any place for those. I have Saab 9000 and Mi16 spayers ready but no luck with those

V-M

[august]

I have opened ~10 N9T engines and none of them has that and I did try to find way to add that but didn't find any place for those. I have Saab 9000 and Mi16 spayers ready but no luck with those

V-M

←

Mi16 has oil sprayers? what years did they do that? i'm cuerious about the US spec ones..

Thanks for the info V-M! Rod + main bearings are no longer available for us here in the US from peugeot, and we've yet to find any aftermarket, or compatibles ones. So yeah, great info!

RE oil flow: I've seen + heard of 4 or 5 semi high milage N9T** motors eat the #2 rod bearing. all the rest are fine, but the #2 is gone. I had this happen to one of my cars, replaced all the bearings, and inspected the journals, and 100 miles later, it ate the same bearing again! Have any of you heard of anything like that? It has to be an oil flow issue, but i'm really not sure what.

[Bean]

Thanks V-M!

That's great info. I'll likely be checking back with you after my India trip this winter for a parts order on some of this stuff. ($$$ for the trip is priority)

After I get back I'll be tearing apart the 2 spare engines to get an idea of what I have, and what I need. I can then start buying and accumulating parts as needed for the build up. Existing motor will just get some maintenance, and do the testing of the whichever ECU I decide to use. I can then build up it's replacement and have it ready to drop in when I have the ECU sorted out. It'll need some more tweeking with the new motor of course - but I want to have a really nice baseline to work from.

As for peak boost - with 96 mm pistions, and higher compression, 1 bar is likely going to be my limit. I'll see what it runs like, but my goal is 300 HP - no need for more as I'd prefer to tune it for ultimate driveability. (I want almost instant response and absurd power deliver everywhere in the power band... Peaky high HP motors are annoying to drive...

Rabin

[august]

here's a little more info on other cars that share the similar block:

The Simca N9TE engine (by: Andrew Minney)

The 91.7 x 81.6 mm, 2156 cc engine found in the Peugeot 505 Turbo dates back to the 160/180 2 litre designed by Simca in 1967.

The Citroen BX P, M, Rally, 4TC Serie 200 and 4TC Evo cars used this engine (prepared by ROC in the case of the BX P). This was used also in the Matra Le Mans sportscars, Matra Murena, and also some of the Matra F2 cars. Because of its strengths, it was used until 1986. In the Matra Murena, with a turbocharger, it would in its original form produce 155bhp @ 5200rpm.

...i've yet to find any source for BX parts however.

[V-M]

Those mentioned BX are bit rare in europe also, only couple of are sold and used "normal" persons. Only factory supported rally teams tested that one in some races.

V-M

[Toni Lindroos]

Here's something I found about ROC:

http://membres.lycos.fr/rocauto/eindex.html

http://membres.lycos.fr/rocauto/french/findex.html

Not much and the site says ROC is no longer active... There's much more information in the French version of the site compared to the English one. There's also a pic of that ROC 2 liter Formula 2 engine:

http://membres.lycos.fr/rocauto/picts/photos/motroc.jpg

"Le moteur ROC, basé sur le bloc du moteur 2L Simca-Chrysler, qui gagna les 24h du Mans en 1977, 78 et 80 en classe 2-litres Groupe 6."

The block for sure (?) looks familiar but everything else is different. I wonder if this is the 16 valve head with two cams?

Here's a German Matra Murena page that has some detailed information about the N9T engine (and variants):

http://www.technikhomepage.de/kfz/kfz.html

It's loaded with information... But only in German. Babelfish should be able to translate it somehow. Just follow all the links from that index page. Here's a direct link to a F2 engine page:

http://www.technikhomepage.de/kfz/motor/formel2.html

And here's a translated version of "the motor index page":

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/t...otor/motor.html

[august]

V-M: aaah ok, thanks!

Toni: Great find! the german page had some great info (used google to translate)..

some interesting points (source)

typical weak point/defects

Frequent damage to the engine results from defective oil pumps, these either ran in, by deposits or to foreign bodies clogged (for example inferior oils or plentifully laid on sealing material), or it by wrong assembly drillings for oil for example in the rocker arm ramp was shifted. This is always a sign of amateur handicraft, which comes in addition, from workshops. The engine defects by oil pump damage arise then usually suddenly, the engine, the straight still healthy hummed rattle suddenly only. One should consider and repair let thus with an old or from dubious source overhauled engine all alarm flags promptly. An oil mud flushing and a change, and/or. Modification of the oil pump is often many cheaper, than ruining equal the whole engine.

In any case this engine is to be run hot design conditionally embarrassingly, since no forced Spritzoelkuehlumg and lubricating of the pistons are present. This is the reason, why straight are nearly always bulgy worn out with murena and Peugeot 505 turbo engine mount the straight bushes. The centrifuge oil lubrication functions only after some time if the oil is thin enough and is still sufficiently healthy the oil pump. Straight ones here have the coldly thinner vollsythetischen oils again large advantages!

Sometimes also for lack of knowledge the double bottom and the air guidance sign were removed for engine compartment exhaust (see also chapter body ). Thus the flow and cooling of the engine compartment worsen. Often this was lost with a takeoff from the road or broken, which one sees also at the depressions of the Unterbodens. Even such cucumbers, which not rarely are approximately full tears in the plastic dress, are offered over 2000 euro. One should use such a thing however only as battle vehicle for the punishment for nothing, or a free collection.

A too lean burn by defective carburetors, the wrong spark plugs (after comparative table correctly, but nevertheless too hot) and a wrong ignition, not correctly tightened (or) cheese head screws never pulled tight do then often still its remaining and it come to the cracking in the cylinder head. This was also with other cast irons engine mount and aluminum cylinder head combinations at the time the case! One partly already hears of far at rattling the cylinder head that here somewhat is not correct.

Knocking engines despite correctly stopped ignition are also an indication of inferior overhauling work. Here by too frequent or to strong planning of the sealing surfaces at the cylinder head/engine mount the compression was increased, which actually requires a supporting of a thicker cylinder head gasket.

The oil pump repair was also somewhat interesting: source

Does anyone know what Talbot and Matra referred to the 2.2L motor as? N9 or X5N2.

[V-M]

Peugeot/Talbot type code is 9N2 this is without turbo (Talbot Tagora), Chrysler type code is 7T2 = 2L model, 7S2 =1.8L model and 7R2=1.6L. That end number is carburator type code.

Toni mentioned this ROC twincam engine, yes thats correct at they build this for some formula use. I have tryied to find info on that but no luck.

Now I'm testing if Volvo 16V head can be "re-used" , Saab head was too much different for this block.

V-M

[Guest OB6D]

A Matra Murena 2.2 head will fit the N9Txx. Differences are:

Exhaust manifold has only 2 bolts at cylinder 1.

The rings in your exhaust manifold, won't fit. [smaller bore].

The cap on the axial bearing of the cam, goes with 3 bolts instead of 5.

A standard Murena cam has practicly the same timing as standard Turbo cam.

I used a Murena head gasket, which comes in a complete set and is reasonably cheap. It also has these chain cover gaskets, valve cover gasket, waterpump gasket. And also 8 seals for your valves.

[Matthew]

For the overhaul (blown head gasket), I used a Murena 2.2 head gasket (by "Glaser").

Works fine for me.

The exhaust gasket is a different story: up to now, I use a Murena gasket (the one with 8 thread holes).

I managed to order 2 original Curty exhaust manifold gaskets.

They were still available (couple of months ago) via Federal Mogul.

The part number is JC712.

The Payen head gasket (via F-M) is part number BL610.