Johnny Posted October 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2006 It would really be great if you could scan the material that you have! I might get along without it but it would be helpful. I'm trying to gather as much info as possible about these cars and it could be helpful in the future too. I'll PM my email. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KariM Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Johnny, I missed what was your car spec? LE/LU, model year? Those diagrams may vary if it's not exactly for your model. The one Toni pointed out matches my car precisely, which made my MS installation very straightforward. Tacho and tachymetric relay continued their operation normally even though I ripped out disconnected the original ign and fuel ECU's. Is this table from your car? Cablenumber........ Pin (at fuel-ECU)........1.................... 1 ......212...................2 .......15...................15 .......22...................22 According to Toni's wiring diagram (and verified in my car) those fuel ECU pins are: 1= trigger from coil, 2= idle switch, 15= injector 1, 22= empty. If those are connected otherwise in your car, then the diagram does not apply, sorry The 123 (I may have erroneusly stated it 124) ign amp module probably needs pull-up resistor if used with MS. I installed the resistor right away, never tried without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted October 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Johnny, I missed what was your car spec? LE/LU, model year? Those diagrams may vary if it's not exactly for your model. The one Toni pointed out matches my car precisely, which made my MS installation very straightforward. Tacho and tachymetric relay continued their operation normally even though I ripped out disconnected the original ign and fuel ECU's. Is this table from your car? According to Toni's wiring diagram (and verified in my car) those fuel ECU pins are: 1= trigger from coil, 2= idle switch, 15= injector 1, 22= empty. If those are connected otherwise in your car, then the diagram does not apply, sorry The 123 (I may have erroneusly stated it 124) ign amp module probably needs pull-up resistor if used with MS. I installed the resistor right away, never tried without. Oh, It could be because I've never put them up . It's a 1988 505 turbo injection with the N9TEA engine. I don't know if it has LE or LU, but the car is from sweden and has a catalysator and lambda-sond so I guess it's an LU. The fuel-ECU has the numbers 0 280 00 343 written on it. The table is from my car, yes. It's the number of the cables and to which pins they are connected on the fuel-ECU. I have ordered som parts now... I've read that you need to build a little circuit to drive the tacho output in megasquirt-extra (basically a transistor and a few resistors) and then I realised that it don't fit inside the connector as I've originally planned, so I've ordered an experiment-board to solder the components to and then I'll have only cabels running from the connector to the experiment-board. Kari: Did you replace both the Ignition and Fuel ECU:s with megasquirt at once? And do you have any tips on making a spark-map? I have an idea of taking the ignition-curve that the original ignition-ECU uses when there is no boost present. (or below 100mbar overboost) and then modify it to the different pressures (vacum and boost) with the formula at http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=9941. Do you think that would be a good idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Lindroos Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 It's a 1988 505 turbo injection with the N9TEA engine. I don't know if it has LE or LU, but the car is from sweden and has a catalysator and lambda-sond so I guess it's an LU. The fuel-ECU has the numbers 0 280 00 343 written on it. That explains why the diagram doesn't match... The N9TE document is only for the older N9TE version of European 505 Turbo. You've got the latest and greatest N9TEA version. :-) But I might have just the right document available for your car too: Peugeot 505 Turbo Injection - Moteur injection avec catalyseur - 176 (N9TEA) Echangeur AIR/AIR 180 ch - Contrôles, interventions, réglages. Additif à la brochure Réf. 3477. The engine code should be 176 W and it uses LU-Jetronic (according to the document). It's in French but one should be able to read the diagrams etc. even without knowledge of French language. ;-) I just recently bought this original Peugeot workshop manual from France. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 OT:Then u have also speed sensing steering on your 88? I have owned one -88 model imported from sweden in -89 which did have all features leather seats, and all those model year additions (exept aircon). V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted October 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 Toni: Thanks alot! That document was very interesting! Nice site you have btw. The diagrams were readable without knowledge French language, too bad I don't know french so I could read the rest.. V-M: I have no idea. I don't even know what speed sensing steering is..... is it like you have to turn the steeringwheel more if you go faster and less if you're going slower? Btw, I made the harness and soldered everything to my little experiment-board, so if I'm lucky and have done everything right the car should start and run fine now... but it's nothing I count on . I discovered another issue when reading the wiring-diagram: the car will only boost like a N9TE because the electronic boost-control seems to be controlled by the ignition-box. I've read that Megasquirt-extra does support electronic boost-control but it is still experimental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 the speed sensing V-M is talking about was offered on 87+ 505 turbo's, its called veri-steer. There was a small bendix box located under the battery which is hooked up to the speedo cable, and limits pressure (assist) depending on how fast you drive. i think its more of a nusance then anything else, becuase most of us know that it likes to stop working right when you need your power steering. one minute you'll have %100 assist, and the next you have %5 (it's been like that on ALL the veri-steer car's i've driven). its a crazy sick idea if it'd work right (i think the faster you go you get less and less assit until 150kph, then assist is totally off). in any case, i can't imagine it'd be that hard to bypass Johnny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-M Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 Don't worry about that extra boost control That's useless, just set up boost directly to 1bar and adjust Mega accordin that usage. Then u have control of boost (totally) (but u need better flowing exhaust for 1 bar for not melting turbo and engine). Like August sayed if u find "motor" under battery then u have that veri-steer. It can be by-passed and it's useless (imagine why it's added?). There (under battery) can be compressor for air horns so don't mix veri-steering with that. Compressor is small (10cm long) and veri steerin motor is real motor. V-M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted October 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 I think I have veri-steering, I found a little black box with bendix written on it under the battery. But I'll see if I have to do something about it when I get it running. If it works then I won't do anything about it, but if it's not working then I'll have to look into it, but it's not my first priority. Back to the ignition: I have tried to start it a few times and have spent some time looking at my little experiment-board but the only thing I could find was that I've used a 10kohm resistor instead of a 10ohm resistor. So then I checked the hall-sensor-> stone dead. According to the technical description on tonis site, the hall-sensor gives an output of 5v so I guess that it needs 5v input too. I had of course wired the hall-sensor to 12v instead of 5v. (not reading the technical description carefully until today). So I feel a little tired now... not the car, just tired of my own stupidity but, hopefully I learn something and read better the next time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted November 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 IT IS RUNNING!!! A major breakthrough happened today! I must tell you one thing though... I'm really embaressed about it, but it may be to your amusement so I'll write it anyway . I had ordered a distributer from a junkyard and it came today, so then I put it in the car and tested it with the ignition to see if everything was working, and it was. Then I thought, just to be certain, I'd hook up the old distributer and see if it worked. And to my suprise it did.... this means that I've just paid for a distributer that costed 500 SEK or ~70 $ in vain . But to see it on the bright side I have a spare distributer the day that old distributer breaks. (always look on the bright side of life ) Back to the car: When I tried to start it with the little tacho output connected to cable nr 1 (which needs an rpm-signal) it just started and ran a few seconds like before. Then I thought: what the heck, I'll just run a cabel from the negative side from the ignition-coil to cable 1. And it worked! So now the car is startable and idles fine. I haven't tried to rev it or anything like that because I'm not so sure about my spark-map and I need to buy an old portable computor so I can see what is happening a bit better before I try to tune megasquirt. So I'm halfway there! And thanks alot everyone! You've been really helpful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 progress, woohoo!!! nicely done johnny... i'm sure you can find a cheap laptop on ebay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted November 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 I have found a cheap laptop which should arrive this week. I have found something very interesting though: the car don't rev very well (max ~2000rpm) and dies if I open the trottle too fast. But if I press down the idle microswitch all the time or disconnect it, the car revs fine. I think that maybe the TPS has something to do with it because there is no voltage to the TPS, and therefore there shouldn't be any signal to the fuel-ecu either. Maybe when the idle enrichment is active, it has enough fuel to rev higher. But when it isn't active, the engine cannot rev higher because it don't have enough fuel? Does anyone have an idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted November 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 It seems like all the cables of the tps goes to the ignition-ecu, which processes this signal somehow and sends it to the fuel-ECU. The problem is that I don't know at which pin the fuel-ECU gets this signal, and I dont know if it's an analog or digital signal, but I guess It's an analog signal? On the N9TE engine, it looks like it don't have an tps, but a switch that switches a voltage (I guess) to either pin 2 or pin 3 (on the fuel-ECU). But that's about all I know... Help me guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 It seems like all the cables of the tps goes to the ignition-ecu, which processes this signal somehow and sends it to the fuel-ECU.The problem is that I don't know at which pin the fuel-ECU gets this signal, and I dont know if it's an analog or digital signal, but I guess It's an analog signal? On the N9TE engine, it looks like it don't have an tps, but a switch that switches a voltage (I guess) to either pin 2 or pin 3 (on the fuel-ECU). But that's about all I know... Help me guys! aaah, that's a difference between european and US 505 turbo's, the TPS. Some of the pictures i've seen the tps is a black box that's non adjustable. it's either on or off. The US versions have an adjustable unit that is VERY sensitive, and varies in voltage (usually something like 2.* to 11.* if i remember right, its been a while though). as far as it being analog or digital, i'm 99% sure its analog. I'm pretty sure Motronic (next generation) was digital. I don't see anything in the manual that says "TPS" for any of the pins on the injection ECU. However, the closest thing I see is pin 6, which says: Pins: 6 Wires: 6 = Engine load - Signal to ignition E.C.U (171). the picture below shows wire 6 as a single shielded wire connecting to the ignition ecu. I'm guessing that HAS to be it, but i'm not %100 on that. grubbs? where are you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted November 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 I have an adjustable tps, not a little black box. I have the same as you do. I actully have one of those little black boxes on a spare manifold, probably from a N9TE-engine (came with the car). Those black boxes have two switches: one for idle and one for wot (and possibly it does not send any voltage to any pin when throttle is in between). That 6-wire sure looks probable, the manual doesn't state what voltage-range the signal should be in? The ignition-ecu must use, or modify the signal from the tps in some way... Otherwise I don't think the tps would not be connected to the ignition-ecu at all. Could you check the assignments of pin 2,3 & 15 (on the fuel-ecu)? I see on the wiring-diagram that they are connected to the ignition-ecu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 I have an adjustable tps, not a little black box. I have the same as you do. I actully have one of those little black boxes on a spare manifold, probably from a N9TE-engine (came with the car). Those black boxes have two switches: one for idle and one for wot (and possibly it does not send any voltage to any pin when throttle is in between). That 6-wire sure looks probable, the manual doesn't state what voltage-range the signal should be in? The ignition-ecu must use, or modify the signal from the tps in some way... Otherwise I don't think the tps would not be connected to the ignition-ecu at all. Could you check the assignments of pin 2,3 & 15 (on the fuel-ecu)? I see on the wiring-diagram that they are connected to the ignition-ecu. the manual doesn't say what kind of signal wire 6 is using. that's something you'd have to test Injection ECU: pin | description ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 | engine speed - ignition - triggered by hall effect distributor 2 | microswitch + overboost switch 3 | "full load" (maybe another TPS wire? it does connect to the ignition ECU: wire 3) 4 | starter solenoid 5 - 13 | grounds 6 | TPS? 7 - 8 | AFM 9 | Power supply - Injection relay (M783) 10 | coolant temp sensor (M889) aka NTC. (N9TEA only) 11 | altitude sensor 12 | Injector resistor pack (5 pin white plug) 15 | enrichment signal from ignition ECU (sensor in T-Stat housing: H96) (except N9TEA?) 18 | 60deg thermocontact 20 | o2 sensor 22 | Integrator voltage signal (for richness adjustment at idle) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted November 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 I've been digging in the old peugeotlist archives and found this: http://www.vectorbd.com/peugeot/archive/50...1/Dec/0592.html This means that there should be a cable that gives the ignition-ecu a basic injection duration signal. There are 3 cables connecting the two ecu's, cable 1,3b,15 & 6 and they are connected to pins 1,3,15 & 6 on the fuel-ecu. Pin 1 can be excluded, connected to negative side of coil (on my car only) Pin 15 can be excluded because it's an output signal from the fuel-ecu. This leaves two cables 3b & 6. I have searched alot on the net to find some information about LU-jetronic, and it seems that no other LU-jetronic-equipped or even any other version of L-jetronic uses a potentiometer. Every system I have read about uses only those black boxes with switches in them. Of this I have come to the conclusion that our system is no different! The fuel-ecu dosn't get a dynamic signal from the tps, it only gets a signal at WOT and idle. And by comparing the wiring-diagrams of the N9TEA and N9TE it seems like that WOT signal comes to the fuel-ecu at pin 3 (cable 3b). This means that that 6-cable is the cable which gives the ignition-ecu the basic injection duration signal. I think that my problem could be solved by using that spare little black box I have instead of the TPS. Too bad Joe Grubbs isn't very active here, it would save so much time if I could talk to the man directly instead of going through the archives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest broke Posted November 26, 2006 Report Share Posted November 26, 2006 August is correct pin 6 of the INJECTION ecu is a shielded wire that goes into pin 8 of the IGNITION ecu. Pin 1 of the INJECTION ecu goes to pin 17 of the IGNITION ecu. Pin 3 of the INJECTION ecu goes to pin 18 of the IGNITION ecu. Pin 15 of the INJECTION ecu goes to pin 15 of the IGNITION ecu. Pin 2 of the INJECTION ecu goes to pin 7 of the IGNITION ecu. Johnny this is for a USA model n9te model. Remeber, you must take apart the plug inorder to read the pin numbers of the ecu. Don't rely on the diagrams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted November 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2006 I've never stated that August is wrong? The diagram for N9TEA is here: http://www.peugeot505.info/files/505_n9tea_cir.pdf I have checked the plugs, pins and wires, and that diagram is correct. What I need is someone to confirm if my theory is correct or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted December 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 I think I have found an explanation to my engine's odd behaviour: I think my microswitch is somehow inverted... When hooking up a dvom to it, it's not electrically closed when the throttle is closed, it reads infinite ohms. But when I open the throttle so that the bolt don't have any contact with the switch-lever, then the dvom reads 0 ohms (ie elecrically closed). This explanes why the engine could not rev freely when the microswitch was connected: The injection-ecu thought that the throttle was closed and because the rpm was relatively high (~2000 rpm) it was thinking that the car must be engine-braking and thus the injection-ecu would not inject any/very little fuel. And when I disconnected the microswitch, it could rev freely because the ecu wasn't gettin an idle-signal nor a WOT-signal, it thought that the engine was in part-load. And about that fuel-ignition relationship I'm 95% sure that the fuel-ecu only needs a signal at idle and at WOT. Considering: The ignition ECU calculates the optimal spark advance and provides an engine RPM signal for the injection ECU and the tachometer. The ignition ECU determines the basic spark advance by using: - The camshaft position via the hall-effect sensor in the distributor. This is the pulse that gets sent to the injection ECU and tachometer. - Engine load percentage via the "basic injection duration" which is sourced from the injection ECU. ----- The ignition ECU also provides a control for the "Full Load Data" pin, which provides a signal for a WOT condition to the injection ECU. BTW, this is pin 18 on the ignition ECU and pin 3 on the injection ECU. Source: http://www.505turbo.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19 And: The book says:(for a 3.2 blink)Cause: basic injection duration input. Check to be performed: 1) Continuity between pin 6 of injection ecu and pin 8 of ignition ecu. Source: http://www.vectorbd.com/peugeot/archive/99_10/0113.html I am certain that cable 6, connecting the ignition ecu (pin 8) and fuel ecu (pin 6) is the carrying the "Basic duration signal". Now this will only have to be proved in practice which, unfortunately could take a while because the cpu of the megasquirt is broken and it could take a while before I get a new one... I haven't ordered one yet because I'm out of money.... Haha, I sure make long posts, I just hope someone bothers to read everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 I think I have found an explanation to my engine's odd behaviour: I think my microswitch is somehow inverted... When hooking up a dvom to it, it's not electrically closed when the throttle is closed, it reads infinite ohms. i'm not sure about this one. if you unplug a microswitch, the engine shouldn't rev about like 1500rpm. i didn't think it was possible to 'invert' the microswitch, but i'll have to test. Now this will only have to be proved in practice which, unfortunately could take a while because the cpu of the megasquirt is broken and it could take a while before I get a new one... I haven't ordered one yet because I'm out of money.... Haha, I sure make long posts, I just hope someone bothers to read everything hell yeah i'm reading it. i wish i knew more about the system, and could answer better but...... i think it'd be really cool to get some -more- technical documentation on the site which could help out in situations like this. (i'm working on the manual we were talking about johnny) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted December 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 I havn't done anything to invert it, it just appears to be inverted because it acts the opposite of what this microswitch procedure written by Joe Grubbs suggests: Have youreadjusted the throttle microswitch striker? Sometimes people adjust the idle speed of their Turbo using this adjustment, though it is incorrect. Here's the procedure: - Remove the throttle cable adjustment clip (on the plastic collar near the aux air device). - Disconnect the throttle microswitch and connect an ohmmeter to the terminals in its connector. - Locate the minimum throttle screw (on the throttle cable side of the throttle body) - Insert a 0.4mm feeler guage between the stop screw and the throttle arm--you are basically open the throttle by 0.4mm... - Adjust the throttle microswitch so that it *just* electrically closes (or reads <1 ohm). - Now, insert a 0.8mm feeler guage in place of the 0.4mm, the meter should read infinite ohms - Tighten the locknut on the microswitch adjustment, being careful not to turn the screw at all. - Remove the feeler guage - Push the throttle cable collar back until *most* of the cable slack has been removed, and reinstall the clip. - Reconnect the microswitch - See what happens... -Joe G I have also tested one of those black boxes and they work like the microswitch procedure above suggests. (closing electrically when throttle is closed) More technical documentation would be sweet.. if I can prove my little theory I could try to write some kind of document that explains the problems I have and how to solve them. Personally, I'd like to have documentation of the ecu's and their operation in detail and schematics. But I think those documents are written on a rare paper called unavailable. BTW, I discovered that I need to change the throttle-body to fit one of those boxes. It's possible to cut the throttle-axle to make it fit but because I have two spare throttle-body's, I'll just change it instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted December 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 Ha! I finally found info that confirms what I've been saying! Written by Joe Grubbs: BTW, the "full load data signal" generated by the IGNITION ECU and sent to the INJECTION ECU combined with the closed throttle microswitch takes the place of the integrated throttle switch found on most other Lx-Jet applications. The word "data" is confusing because it is simply an on-off signal. The ignition ECU decides when the engine is under full-load and tells the injection ECU to go extra-rich. Joe Source: http://www.vectorbd.com/peugeot/turbo/0034.html I sure would like to get my hands on that Electrical Service Manual Joe is referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 nice find, i see you've been reading up on the archives haha i'm not sure about that electrical service manual. keep your eye out one bay, or maybe post something to peugeot-l because i think there might be some members with factory (not sold to public) documentation. I've got an electrical workshop manual, but its an over the counter manual, and i think it's different then what was provided to the technicians (like Joe). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted December 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 The archives do have alot of good information, too bad it's so hard to find because you have to go through every month of posts. Searching on a search-engine is almost pointless, you can't find some posts, altough you know they exist. BTW, I've changed the throttle-body and installed the black box and the wires so now pin 2 on the injection-ecu gets 12v when the throttle is closed and pin 3 gets 12v at "WOT". The wiring was really easy. I just took +12v from the microswitch, the idle-signal-cable and used one of the potentiometer-cables for the "WOT"-signal, connecting it to the 3b-cable (under the footrest), which goes to pin 3 on the injection-ecu. A funny thing is that the "WOT" signal really isn't giving the signal at WOT, it gives it when the throttle is 40-50% open. How do one post on peugeot-l? I have tried to join the list but my attempt failed, I guess I'm just not used to that kind of forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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