Bad ignition

[Johnny]

My car's ignition doesn't work.

I have tested a know good coil and it still didn't spark, and all fuses are good. And I have connected a spark plug directly to the coil so I know it isn't bad connection in the distributer or anything.

I think it could be the hall sensor or that little ignition module? (I don't know what you say in english )

Does anyone know how you can test them?

Any input would be welcome!

[V-M]

Try replace/check knoking unit (aluminium "colored") behind in passenger side foot rest. Also ing.timing unit is there.

Also signal strengtner (small black box) next to coil in one canditate.

V-M

[Johnny]

What does this knocking unit do and how can one test it?

And the signal strengthner, what signal does it strengen?

Thanks for the answer!

[Toni Lindroos]

What does this knocking unit do and how can one test it?

And the signal strengthner, what signal does it strengen?

Thanks for the answer!

Download "N9TE - Technical Description" from Peugeot505.info. That manual explains quite well how the ignition system in the 505 Turbo works.

[Johnny]

Hello again!

Thanks for the tips Toni!

I've replaced the amplifier module and the distributer with "new" parts but it still won't ignite. I have voltage over the coil, so thats not it..

One thing I have thought about is the knock sensor, if it's broken, will the car not start or just don't go beyond 3000rpm?

I guess the next thing would be to replace the knocking unit or the timing module.

Which one is most likely to be broken?

Can they be tested with relatively light equipment (like multimeter and cabels) ?

Thanks in advance

[Metako]

does the car have an auto trans? Could be the cut-out relay for the auto (sorry dont know what its called). Could you use a jump wire from the coil to the battery to test?

[Johnny]

No, it's a manual transmission.

EDIT: I just opened the knocking unit in passenger side foot rest, and it seams as one component has been going warm because the pcb was a bit black on the other side. this component seams lika a ic or something like that. There is a lot of numbers on it, on a silvery sticker says: 2227355449, and under the sticker you can read:

LD2732A25

U6330016S

PGM(a)21V

intel '82

A search on google on the number LD2732A25 gave alot of hits on different electronic companys, and I wonder if you could just replace it with a new one or if it's programmed in some way?

On this site http://www.datasheets.org.uk/datasheet/LD2...LD2732A25.shtml Is says that it's a "UV-Erasable PROM (EPROM) - Icc 100mA max"

[V-M]

In my opinion is at if u have burning marks on PCP then u have problem some where else or there was moisture (water) in side. Only replacing that one component will not help.

What numbers u have on box cover?

V-M

[Johnny]

The number is: 0 227 400 033

It seams imposseble to buy from any scrapheap or anything like that....

[Johnny]

Anyway, I'm thinking about ordering a megasquirt and equipping it with the firmware MegasquirtnSpark-extra http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/ and run only ignition on it for starters. Anyone familiar with megasquirt here?

[V-M]

Anyway, I'm thinking about ordering a megasquirt and equipping it with the firmware MegasquirtnSpark-extra http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/ and run only ignition on it for starters. Anyone familiar with megasquirt here?

I have one set coming on my car, and at least 2 505 turbo hobbyist here in Finland has installed and have been using Mega in their car. There is installation drawnings etc... for 505 turbo in Tonis web side.

V-M

[Johnny]

Aha, great!

Are there any direct benefits in having megasquirt to run ignition and fuel, like: fuel-economy, more hp, etc?

hmmm, if there are installation drawings for megasquirt in tonis site, I can't seam to find them.

Or maybe you ment the Wiring Diagram?

[V-M]

Aha, great!

Are there any direct benefits in having megasquirt to run ignition and fuel, like: fuel-economy, more hp, etc?

hmmm, if there are installation drawings for megasquirt in tonis site, I can't seam to find them.

Or maybe you ment the Wiring Diagram?

Isn't installation and wiring samething in this case? If there is need for installation drawnings then should think again If there is real need for mega

If I have taken comments correctly from users, no real benefits (a lof of adjustments needed).

Maybe more benefits If car has more upgrades than those usual ones (read = dani stage 2 works ok with originel systems) which means at ~250hp and ~350Nm are ok with originel systems to handel.

Eaven I have still originel systems working "ok" but advance control is not ok above 1bar boost pressure.

Too much advance in max torgue (3000rpm). Other parts working ok. Eaven fuel injectors are not limitting in 250hp and I have 2486cc engine instead of 2155cc

V-M

[Johnny]

Hehe, you're right about the installation/wiring, but I thought you ment that there were some other diagram than the wiring diagram

I have some questions (a little OT, but anyway):

How much boost can the original rods & pistons take?

(Of course with sufficient amount of fuel & possebly waterinjection)

I have two sets of injectors, the ones that end with 802 and 200. The 802's are in the car now and I was thinking if I am going to tune the care mayby I should put in the 200's?

They should flow more if I have read right?

Thanks for the help!

[august]

I have some questions (a little OT, but anyway):

How much boost can the original rods & pistons take?

(Of course with sufficient amount of fuel & possebly waterinjection)

I have two sets of injectors, the ones that end with 802 and 200. The 802's are in the car now and I was thinking if I am going to tune the care mayby I should put in the 200's?

They should flow more if I have read right?

I think the pistons and rods are pretty beefy as long as the engine isn't detonating a lot. I've seen over 20psi quite a few times on a stock block without trouble (88 505 turbo featured on this site before engine rebuild).

as far as the injectors are concerned, the 200's are only slightly larger then the 802's. I wouldn't run more then 11.5psi with 200 injectors. the question is really how much boost do you want to run.

[Johnny]

I think the pistons and rods are pretty beefy as long as the engine isn't detonating a lot. I've seen over 20psi quite a few times on a stock block without trouble (88 505 turbo featured on this site before engine rebuild).

as far as the injectors are concerned, the 200's are only slightly larger then the 802's. I wouldn't run more then 11.5psi with 200 injectors. the question is really how much boost do you want to run.

11.5 ?! Isn't that stock boost?

[august]

11.5 ?! Isn't that stock boost?

yep. the 200 injectors were used (or supposed to be used) in the bone stock N9TEA's, which were set to 11.6psi boost pressure. the 802's were used in the N9TE which were set to like 7-8psi.

how much boost do you want to run?

[Johnny]

yep. the 200 injectors were used (or supposed to be used) in the bone stock N9TEA's, which were set to 11.6psi boost pressure. the 802's were used in the N9TE which were set to like 7-8psi.

how much boost do you want to run?

As much as pistons, rods, turbo & injectors are good for.

And as far as i know the 200 injectors are good for ~240+ hp so they should be able to give sufficient fuel for higher boost than 11.5 psi?

My engine is a N9TEA and has the 802 injectors in it, probaly stock (has catalysator too).

The question was a bit ahead of schedule because the engine isn't running, yet , but I thought I might as well ask while I'm at it.

I'm not sure what the boost is set at right now (by obvious reasons), but I'll guess that its ~0,8 bar or ~11.5psi because it is indeed the 180 hp version.

Thanks for the response!

[august]

As much as pistons, rods, turbo & injectors are good for.

And as far as i know the 200 injectors are good for ~240+ hp so they should be able to give sufficient fuel for higher boost than 11.5 psi?

My engine is a N9TEA and has the 802 injectors in it, probaly stock (has catalysator too).

The question was a bit ahead of schedule because the engine isn't running, yet , but I thought I might as well ask while I'm at it.

I'm not sure what the boost is set at right now (by obvious reasons), but I'll guess that its ~0,8 bar or ~11.5psi because it is indeed the 180 hp version.

Thanks for the response!

piston and rod strength can see some high boost as long as everything else is running right (correct A/F mixture, etc, etc).

lemme break down the injector info:

0 280 150 200 300cm3/min (29.0 LBS/HR) (3.0 bar)(43.5 PSI)BMW/PEUGEOT(N9TEA) = 160hp @ ~7psi

0 280 150 802 284cm3/min (27.4 LBS/HR) (3.0 bar)(43.5 PSI)PEUGEOT 2.2L Turbo(N9TE) = 180hp @ ~11.6psi

0 280 150 804 337cm3/min (32.5 LBS/HR) (3.0 bar)(43.5 PSI)PEUGEOT SPORT(N9TEx) = 200hp @ ~14.5psi

you can see the 200 injectors dont flow that much more fuel then stock (300cm vs 284cm). In california, where the gas is really really crapy, I've seen the car detonate with 200 injectors at 11.5psi boost. so i'm sure you could boost higher on the 200 injectors with good gas, but i surly wouldn't (being the price and availibity of bottom end parts).

the next step up would be the 804's: we've run these quite a bit, along with some friends on the east coast. they would run the 804's at 1.1bar and supposedly didn't have any trouble. i/we were under the impression that the 804 injectors were what was used by the peugeot sport kit in europe to give the car 240hp DIN. later to find out, the 240hp cars got a different 380cm injector to reach the 240hp figure, which leads me to think the 804 was for the 200hp kit.

if i were you, i'd install some 804's and a 3bar FPR, and try 1bar of boost (assuming your using the stock cam). then go from there.

[Johnny]

Great! thanks for the info!

I am thinking about ethanol as fuel instead of gas.

I don't know if you have that in california but here in sweden we have e85 which is a mixture of gas and ethanol (15%gas, 85%ethanol).

It has a octane of 104 ron and should be very suitable for turbo applications, the drawback is that you need ~30% more fuel (volume) then gas to get the same energycontent.

So you would need bigger injectors, I'm guessing ~390-440cm3/min. In my case ~440 would be preferable because injectors of that size would give ~30% more fuel than the 804's.

Do you or anyone else know if there is OEM injectors around that size from an other car model that fits directly to the pug?

I will probaly be using megasquirt for the fuelsystem so the original fuel system is out of the equation when the time comes .

In addition to that I think I will build a water injection system too and a frontmounted IC (maybe from a saab 9000).

I atleast think that with that recipe I should be able to add alot of boost without getting detonations and that's why the question about the pistons & rods arose.

I maybe should add that I'm a newbie at cars and have never done anything like this but I just take problems as they occur (I'm just 18 years btw ).

[august]

check this link out for injector details (all the injectors here *should* work with the 505 assuming they are low impedance)

http://www.505turbo.com/tech/injector_list.txt

interesting about running ethanol. there are supposedly no performance drawbacks assuming you get the air fuel mixture right? 104 sure is sweet, the highest we have in cali is 91 ... the california gas is 'slimmed' down quite a bit for emissions. the summer time blend is the wrose, but its all pretty horrible. its oxyginated RFG, sometimes with MTBE and other additives that seem to lower overall fuel economy, and greatly recude power (in the 505 at least). I read a whitepaper on the RFG we have in california and it said to reach the same power output, more fuel is needed across the board (interesting they put this on a tech sheet which is talking about their emission reducing petrol).

[V-M]

Great! thanks for the info!

I am thinking about ethanol as fuel instead of gas.

I don't know if you have that in california but here in sweden we have e85 which is a mixture of gas and ethanol (15%gas, 85%ethanol).

It has a octane of 104 ron and should be very suitable for turbo applications, the drawback is that you need ~30% more fuel (volume) then gas to get the same energycontent.

So you would need bigger injectors, I'm guessing ~390-440cm3/min. In my case ~440 would be preferable because injectors of that size would give ~30% more fuel than the 804's.

Do you or anyone else know if there is OEM injectors around that size from an other car model that fits directly to the pug?

I will probaly be using megasquirt for the fuelsystem so the original fuel system is out of the equation when the time comes .

In addition to that I think I will build a water injection system to and a frontmounted IC (maybe from a saab 9000).

I atleast think that with that recipe I should be able to add alot of boost without getting detonations and that's why the question about the pistons & rods arose.

I maybe should add that I'm a newbie at cars and have never done anything like this but I just take problems as they occur (I'm just 18 years btw ).

You could find suitable injectors from Volvo forum in Sweden, look for 465cc/3.8bar/high Ohm and those are ok.

U mean 9000 IC like this? ->

I don't see using that e85 any benefit? Price vs. consumption and other problems like lead for exhaust valves etc...

V-M

V-M

[august]

You could find suitable injectors from Volvo forum in Sweden, look for 465cc/3.8bar/high Ohm and those are ok.

High Ohm? I think Johnny has an N9TE+ if i remember correct, which takes the low Ohm injectors.

[V-M]

High Ohm? I think Johnny has an N9TE+ if i remember correct, which takes the low Ohm injectors.

Yeah, but there is set of 8Ohm resistace it to convert that to ecu for high Ohm, At least one which I owned did have. And same issue have been discussed over years in old peugeot forum. (This is walid for NTEA) but sure for NTE there is originally low ones but you can put high ones if youre having originally low ones BUT not vise versa! Only effect is in high tuned engines have ~0.2ms delay when using original ECU. I have testet it and did have no probs.

V-M

[Johnny]

check this link out for injector details (all the injectors here *should* work with the 505 assuming they are low impedance)

http://www.505turbo.com/tech/injector_list.txt

interesting about running ethanol. there are supposedly no performance drawbacks assuming you get the air fuel mixture right? 104 sure is sweet, the highest we have in cali is 91 ... the california gas is 'slimmed' down quite a bit for emissions. the summer time blend is the wrose, but its all pretty horrible. its oxyginated RFG, sometimes with MTBE and other additives that seem to lower overall fuel economy, and greatly recude power (in the 505 at least). I read a whitepaper on the RFG we have in california and it said to reach the same power output, more fuel is needed across the board (interesting they put this on a tech sheet which is talking about their emission reducing petrol).

91.... but isn't that measured with another method? In europe (or at least sweden) we have ron, or Research Octane Test. but there's at least one more method that I know and that's mon, or Motor Octane Test.

I think I have read somewhere that in the u.s your octane is (ron+mon)/2. but I'm not sure so please correct me if I'm wrong.

In any case it's a shame if you have bad fuel