Bad ignition

[Johnny]

You could find suitable injectors from Volvo forum in Sweden, look for 465cc/3.8bar/high Ohm and those are ok.

U mean 9000 IC like this? ->

I don't see using that e85 any benefit? Price vs. consumption and other problems like lead for exhaust valves etc...

V-M

V-M

Do you know what number or which model it's in? I've searched a bit on a volvo-forum but I havent found those injectors.

Yes, thats the IC I'm thinking of. Is it in your car? How much better is it than the original?

Lead?? we don't have lead in our fuel and there are replacements for lead that you can mix with the fuel if needed.

But does the 505 turbo need lead?

I thought that the catalysator could take damage from that?

The price vs consumption are not interesting because I will not be driving it daily.

And about high ohm injectors: I dont think that will be a problem, because when I'll need those injectors, I will run them with megasquirt.

Btw, where is the old peugeot forum?

It's great to have someone to talk with!

[august]

Yeah, but there is set of 8Ohm resistace it to convert that to ecu for high Ohm, At least one which I owned did have. And same issue have been discussed over years in old peugeot forum. (This is walid for NTEA) but sure for NTE there is originally low ones but you can put high ones if youre having originally low ones BUT not vise versa! Only effect is in high tuned engines have ~0.2ms delay when using original ECU. I have testet it and did have no probs.

V-M

V-M: interesting, maybe this is a difference between the US and EU 505's? i've tried to run high Ohm injectors (380cc from a BMW) with no luck at all. from my understanding, the 85 (N9T) ran high Ohm injectors, but didn't have the Injector Resistor Pack that we have on our N9TE's and N9TEA's. The IRP supposedly lets us run the low Ohm injectors? (Where's Joe Grubbs!)

91.... but isn't that measured with another method? In europe (or at least sweden) we have ron, or Research Octane Test. but there's at least one more method that I know and that's mon, or Motor Octane Test.

I think I have read somewhere that in the u.s your octane is (ron+mon)/2. but I'm not sure so please correct me if I'm wrong.

In any case it's a shame if you have bad fuel

your right Johnny, I think our octane is measured differently, but i'm not sure how different it is at the end of the day (i should look into it i guess ). I know when i go to canada and use the 98(?) RON the car feels like it's gained 15hp.

I'm with you on the old peugeot forum!?! where was/is that!!

[Johnny]

V-M: interesting, maybe this is a difference between the US and EU 505's? i've tried to run high Ohm injectors (380cc from a BMW) with no luck at all. from my understanding, the 85 (N9T) ran high Ohm injectors, but didn't have the Injector Resistor Pack that we have on our N9TE's and N9TEA's. The IRP supposedly lets us run the low Ohm injectors? (Where's Joe Grubbs!)

your right Johnny, I think our octane is measured differently, but i'm not sure how different it is at the end of the day (i should look into it i guess ). I know when i go to canada and use the 98(?) RON the car feels like it's gained 15hp.

I'm with you on the old peugeot forum!?! where was/is that!!

I've found this regarding fuel octane:

"In Europe 98-octane gasoline is common and in Japan even 100-octane is readily available at the pumps, but this octane nomenclature is misleading to Americans as foreign octane ratings are derived entirely differently from our own... So, like every other measurement system it seems that everyone else uses a different scale than we do, but unlike most other instances where we have had the good sense to create different units of measure in this case we all use the same name...

Japan and Europe use a system called RON or Research Octane Number to determine the octane rating of their gasoline, while stateside we use a system called AKI or Anti-Knock Index to determine gasoline's octane rating... Interestingly, to further complicate things it would seem that our own AKI system is actually derived from the average of the RON system and another more complicated system referred to as MON or Motor Octane Number... So, to recap our methodologies for measuring gasoline's octane rating are different, but share some common elements...

So, with the commonality of RON in mind a good rule of thumb is as follows, multiply the foreign RON Octane rating by 0.95 and you will have the US AKI equivalent.

( RON Octane Rating x 0.95 = AKI Octane Rating )

98 RON Octane x 0.95 = 93.1 AKI Octane (US measure)

100 RON Octane x 0.95 = 95 AKI Octane (US measure)

So, as you can see the 93 or 94 octane fuel we are all paying an arm and a leg for is actually quite comparable to the higher octane fuels found in Europe and Japan. The people whom have to worry about low octane rating are our friends out west in places like California that are subjected to substandard 91 octane.

91 AKI Octane (US measure) = 95.5 RON Octane"

Source: http://hondaswap.com/reference-materials/u...-ratings-59435/

In sweden we have 95, 96 & 98 RON

So your 91:

91/0,95~95,8 RON

So if 91 is the best gas available then it's almost equal to 96 RON which is our next best fuel.

And if you fill it up with 98 RON in canada it's not strange if it runs better.

[august]

nice, thanks for the lesson!

[Johnny]

Hehe, no problemo. If you want more info, use google

V-M:

I've done some more research and I guess that you meen these injectors: bosch 0 280 155 968, usually on the volvo S60R

[V-M]

Hehe, no problemo. If you want more info, use google

V-M:

I've done some more research and I guess that you meen these injectors: bosch 0 280 155 968, usually on the volvo S60R

Yes, those are the ones!

V-M

[V-M]

Do you know what number or which model it's in? I've searched a bit on a volvo-forum but I havent found those injectors.

Yes, thats the IC I'm thinking of. Is it in your car? How much better is it than the original?

Lead?? we don't have lead in our fuel and there are replacements for lead that you can mix with the fuel if needed.

But does the 505 turbo need lead?

I thought that the catalysator could take damage from that?

The price vs consumption are not interesting because I will not be driving it daily.

And about high ohm injectors: I dont think that will be a problem, because when I'll need those injectors, I will run them with megasquirt.

Btw, where is the old peugeot forum?

It's great to have someone to talk with!

Picture is from my car and yes it's better! How much better, that I cant say. Not measured, but lets say at

common sense can be used and figure out eaven thinkin of placement on IC effect

About lead. Surely catalysator engines should not use lead!

So why use e85 then? Less power needed? Use racing gas if need more RON and price is not issue? I use Neste GREEN racing gasoline which have +100Oct (RON)

By "Old" Peugeot forum I ment foorum in peugeot foorum in yahoo.groups

V-M

[V-M]

V-M: interesting, maybe this is a difference between the US and EU 505's? i've tried to run high Ohm injectors (380cc from a BMW) with no luck at all. from my understanding, the 85 (N9T) ran high Ohm injectors, but didn't have the Injector Resistor Pack that we have on our N9TE's and N9TEA's. The IRP supposedly lets us run the low Ohm injectors? (Where's Joe Grubbs!)

I'm with you on the old peugeot forum!?! where was/is that!!

In Finland all versions of 505 turbos had/has originally low ohm injectors. In N9TEA has also low ohm but then was resistor pack added (katalysator versions). In US did have differen story cause Cat versions was in also N9T(E) versions but those I don't know so well.

What was problem with bmw injector usage? I have tested 400cc saab injectors and those was okay but those were giving too much with std setups (AirMass, pressure, etc) so I'll use those when Mega is installed.

V-M

("old" forum -> ment yahoo.groups)

[august]

V-M: any idea why the EU 505's went to a cat for the N9TEA's?

I've done some more research and I guess that you meen these injectors: bosch 0 280 155 968, usually on the volvo S60R

we haven't tried those, but the older (or different altogether) '150' series injectors (0 280 150 xxx rather then 0 280 155 xxx).

these injectors aren't made by bosch, but they are in the same housing:

(as shown on http://www.505turbo.com/project505.php)

[V-M]

V-M: any idea why the EU 505's went to a cat for the N9TEA's?

Law for cat usage came in 1990 Finland. And TEA (-88 model) which I did have was from Sweden which did

have limitations much earlier. Like EGR was allready in N9T models (-84). In Finland EGR was

same time as CAT but they still don't measure in inspection so most of us have been taken it off

usage also for newer cars.

EU has nothing to do with this issue... EU is only couple years old institution but these exhoust limitations have been desides in each european coutry separately. And Switserland and Sweden was limitting these much earlier than other countries in europe.

V-M

[Johnny]

Picture is from my car and yes it's better! How much better, that I cant say. Not measured, but lets say at

common sense can be used and figure out eaven thinkin of placement on IC effect

About lead. Surely catalysator engines should not use lead!

So why use e85 then? Less power needed? Use racing gas if need more RON and price is not issue? I use Neste GREEN racing gasoline which have +100Oct (RON)

By "Old" Peugeot forum I ment foorum in peugeot foorum in yahoo.groups

V-M

Hehe, you're right about that .

What do you mean by "less power needed"?

If octane is higher, one can raise boost a bit without the risk of detonation, more boost would equal more power if cooled sufficiently (there is a point where more boost don't give more hp). If I've read right Neste GREEN racing gas is 94 RON? that is if it's name is futura green (source: http://www.neste.fi/doc/130130_en.pdf)

I think 104 RON would be better then most fuels in that pricerange. But I may very well be wrong , I'm no expert!

Maybe I shouldn't have said that cost don't matter, It does!

What I ment was that it doesn't matter if I drive It on regular gas or e85, that cost isn't a big deal.

I guess that race fuel cost alot more then e85.

Anyway I think it would be a fun experiment and as far as I know today there are no drawbacks of running a turbocharged engine with e85.

If you know any drawbacks, please write 'em down

[V-M]

Hehe, you're right about that .

What do you mean by "less power needed"?

If octane is higher, one can raise boost a bit without the risk of detonation, more boost would equal more power if cooled sufficiently (there is a point where more boost don't give more hp). If I've read right Neste GREEN racing gas is 94 RON? that is if it's name is futura green (source: http://www.neste.fi/doc/130130_en.pdf)

I think 104 RON would be better then most fuels in that pricerange. But I may very well be wrong , I'm no expert!

Nope, Neste racing Green is over +100Oct And cost's ~5e/L. Neste Futura is normal 95Oct gasoline.

Maybe I shouldn't have said that cost don't matter, It does!

What I ment was that it doesn't matter if I drive It on regular gas or e85, that cost isn't a big deal.

I guess that race fuel cost alot more then e85.

Well, If u compare efficiency between those fuels and some changes needed for your can there is no sence to use e85. And actually the knocking is not better on that e85 cause Octane is not only which effects knoking

factor. U can see if u look specs of e85 and 98Oct. Like this +99 (shell) has no better knocking factor eaven octane is bit higher, but burning is better on that fuel.

Anyway I think it would be a fun experiment and as far as I know today there are no drawbacks of running a turbocharged engine with e85.

If you know any drawbacks, please write 'em down

Drawback's:

- Efficiency

- Fuelpump change

- Fuel lines change (rubber type)

- Injectors (some types)

V-M

[Johnny]

Nope, Neste racing Green is over +100Oct And cost's ~5e/L. Neste Futura is normal 95Oct gasoline.

Well, If u compare efficiency between those fuels and some changes needed for your can there is no sence to use e85. And actually the knocking is not better on that e85 cause Octane is not only which effects knoking

factor. U can see if u look specs of e85 and 98Oct. Like this +99 (shell) has no better knocking factor eaven octane is bit higher, but burning is better on that fuel.

Drawback's:

- Efficiency

- Fuelpump change

- Fuel lines change (rubber type)

- Injectors (some types)

V-M

Hehe, 5e/L is a bit too hefty

What do you mean by e85 is less efficient? Do you mean that it has less energy/L or what?

What other factors are there to knocking?

On the swedish etanol-forum (www.etanol.nu) I've read that e85 burns cooler, which I think would be positive regarding knocking.

edit: Btw, I recieved the megasquirt kit the day before yeasterday and I have completed assebling the kit today.

[Johnny]

I just thought of one thing:

Is the ignitionbox and the ecu connected in a way that if you remove the ignitionbox, the ecu doesn't inject any/wrong amount of fuel?

If so then what can one do to fool the ecu that the ignitionbox is still there?

[Johnny]

Anyone?? V-M?

[august]

i'm not sure on how to 'simulate' one or the other here, because i know both ecu's talk to each other.

i'd suggest trying to find some info on the general operation of L-Jetronic in general, and go from there. if your set on megasquirt (just for fuel control), maybe post something on the mega squirt forums and ask how others have done it using L-Jetronic.

these car's use LU-Jetronic, which (from what i understand) is basically a slightly modified version of L-Jet (U being for USA model which includes lamda).

early 80's BMW's and, and mid-late 80's Volvo's used L-Jetronic if i'm not mistaken..

let us know what you find out...

[Guest broke]

My car's ignition doesn't work.

I have tested a know good coil and it still didn't spark, and all fuses are good. And I have connected a spark plug directly to the coil so I know it isn't bad connection in the distributer or anything.

I think it could be the hall sensor or that little ignition module? (I don't know what you say in english )

Does anyone know how you can test them?

Any input would be welcome!

Johnny I once had a problem like yours and discovered a cut wire in the wiring harnes. Check the plugs or pigtails feeding to the ignition relay and computer. Do you have a wiring diagram of your car?

[Johnny]

Johnny I once had a problem like yours and discovered a cut wire in the wiring harnes. Check the plugs or pigtails feeding to the ignition relay and computer. Do you have a wiring diagram of your car?

Well... I'm pretty far past that now. I did trace all the cables around in the car (removed the dashboard) and replaced 2 cables that were bad, but they didn't have anything to do with the ignition, and the car didn't start after that either.

So: my conclusion is that the ignitionbox had been damaged somehow.... so then I ordered megasquirt to run the ignition with the extra-code.

I've soldered the box together and installed it in the car.

Yesterday I was tuning it but didn't have a chance to try and start it, I have a good feeling about it might just be right this time.

I have tried to start it numerous times, but I discovered yesterday that I had installed the signal from the hallsensor wrong (there are 2 ways).

Btw: If anyone is going to do the same thing in the future I can inform you that the Bosch Ignition module that is in the car originally is not compatible with megasquirt. It triggers when it gets positive impulses and it should trigger when grounded.

I got a Bosch module # 1 227 022 008 from an old Opel yesterday, and the system started to spark!

And august:

It seems like the ECU should run without the ignitionbox, the ECU gets the rpm-signal from the rpm-relay, which in turn gets it 's signal from the negative pole of the coil. I'm sure there are more inputs than that, but I think it would work. At least it smells gas in the exhaust-pipe when I've tried to start it.

I have not read in any megasquirt-forum that anyone have had problems with the ignition when they've replaced the L-jetronic ECU with megasquirt, so I guess that they have not had any problems.

Therefore, I shouldn't have any problems either (I hope ).

[Johnny]

It started!

Now to the problem: (who could have guessed? )

It is pretty hard to start, it takes a bit of cranking to get it started, then it runs about 3 seconds, then dies.

I think that it's fuel-related, because the megasquirt-box is flashing its diodes (indicating that it is sparking).

I have laid down under the car and listened to the fuelpump, and it's humming all the time when cranking and running, so I guess I have Fuel pressure.

Could it be so that the cold-start injector is the only one running and then it stops, and that's why the motor is dying?

Any input is welcome!

[Johnny]

I've just read a very interesting article on this forum:

http://www.505turbo.com/forum/index.php?sh...amp;hl=ignition

Considering this, I'm about 90% sure that the only reason I got the car started was because of the cold-start injector, which (I think) gives a little extra fuel when cranking and then stops injecting fuel after a couple of seconds if it isn't a certain temperature in the coolant.

The article also means that my first statement that the ECU gets the rpm-signal from the rpm-relay is wrong.

This in turn means that I need a rpm-signal out of megasqirt to the ECU and possibly the tachometer. I think that there is a tacho-output on megasquirt so hopefully that can be used, and the problem would be solved rather quickly.

The next problem is that the ignition-box sends a signal to the ECU at WOT, I don't know how that signal should look like, but I guess that it's just +12V because the tps gives about 12V a WOT. I really don't know, I'm just guessing and hoping that someone with more knowledge could correct me if I'm wrong or telling me that I'm on the right track .

If all that the ECU needs is a +12V signal at WOT, then this could probably be solved with a microswitch.

It would really be great if anyone could confirm or deny this.

[Guest KariM]

Hi,

From what I've discovered I think the LU-ecu's are somewhat more complicated systems than non-cat LE's. I have not had the chance to get familiar with LU. Here is some information of LE, hope that is applicable for you too:

LE need's only one input from ignition, and that is the coil negative. The same signal is used to drive the tachometer and tachymetric relay. When this signal starts to pulse, tachymetric relay turns fuel pump on and LE syncronically fires the injectors based on other inputs (AFM position, coolant temp, AFM air temp).

There is another signal connecting the fuel and ign ecu's, the injector pulse width information from LE. This is used to shut off the knock control unit in low loads, and to feed the trip computer with fuel consumption related info. This signal is not needed if the loosing the features mentioned above does not bother.

Converting to MS1/extra: The original ign amp 0 227 100 111 is spark when going low -type, and fully compatible with MS1/extra. Dwell control has to be used though. I've seen some cars fitted with 0 227 100 124, about which I'm quite a bit confused, as according to some experiences that is spark when going high -type? Anyway, either way goes because MS1extra can be configured for either type.

[Johnny]

Hi,

From what I've discovered I think the LU-ecu's are somewhat more complicated systems than non-cat LE's. I have not had the chance to get familiar with LU. Here is some information of LE, hope that is applicable for you too:

LE need's only one input from ignition, and that is the coil negative. The same signal is used to drive the tachometer and tachymetric relay. When this signal starts to pulse, tachymetric relay turns fuel pump on and LE syncronically fires the injectors based on other inputs (AFM position, coolant temp, AFM air temp).

There is another signal connecting the fuel and ign ecu's, the injector pulse width information from LE. This is used to shut off the knock control unit in low loads, and to feed the trip computer with fuel consumption related info. This signal is not needed if the loosing the features mentioned above does not bother.

Converting to MS1/extra: The original ign amp 0 227 100 111 is spark when going low -type, and fully compatible with MS1/extra. Dwell control has to be used though. I've seen some cars fitted with 0 227 100 124, about which I'm quite a bit confused, as according to some experiences that is spark when going high -type? Anyway, either way goes because MS1extra can be configured for either type.

Hi KariM

I too did thought so about the ignition input but when I got the car starting the tachometer did not move, so I guess that It don't get its signal from the relay. At least the thread I posted indicates that the tacho and ECU gets their signal from the ignition-box, at least in the 505t systems.

I am not certain, but I will take a look at the harness today and hopefully I'll have something meaningful to post .

And btw, the ignition module that is originally on my car is a 0 227 100 123 but they maybe are alike the ones you named. It is very possible that it works with megasquirt and if I have misinformed anyone I'm sorry, but I couldn't get it to work when I was trying, and when I put in that other module from the Opel It sparked right away.

[Toni Lindroos]

Examine the wiring diagram and the "N9TE Technical Description" closely and you should be able to figure out how the stock system works (download).

[Johnny]

Examine the wiring diagram and the "N9TE Technical Description" closely and you should be able to figure out how the stock system works (download).

Hmmm... that diagram doesn't suit my car .... some of the cables are the same as in that diagram but far from all. The numbers just don't add upp. I have 19 cabels and the diagram says that it should be 24. And no, there's not a bunch of cables lying unconnected next to the ECU But it's ALOT better then nothing so thank you Toni!

I have found four cables that have the same number at the ignition-ECU and the fuel-ECU:

Cablenumber........ Pin (at fuel-ECU)

........1.................... 1

......212...................2

.......15...................15

.......22...................22

It seems that only three of these cables are really connected to each other (measuring resistance with multimeter from ignition-side to fuel-side). These are cable 1, 212 and 15.

Judging by the diagram you gave me I'd say that cable 1 is the one "missing" it's signal... it seams as it is connected to three cables with nr 112, and the 112 "main" cable is connected to the negative pole of the coil, so it surely has something to do with the ignition-system .

[august]

johnny i got your pm, but it looks like your making headway. if you still need some details i can try to scan some of the material i have, but lemme know..

i think its great your going forward with this. document it if you could, it'd be great to have this info for people in the future who want to MS their 505!

keep us posted!