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XD3T Tuning


wadehilts

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Timing IP:  I’d ask Giles what he recommends for timing his pumps.  Factory Peugeot or VW use a fuel line drip method to time the motor, but I’ve heard mention that ear is the best.  There has to be something about how to install it at TDC or something, but I’ve never done it yet…

9mm vs 10mm:  I’ve got both a 5sp sedan and a 4sp auto wagon with xd3t’s and they follow my research.  For modest power goals like we want, either is plenty.  Some of thr VW guys are getting 160+ HP out of 1.6L VW engines, so I’m thinking 2.5L should be able to do it fairly easily.

EGR plate mod:  great use of the plate!

Gauges:  too bad about having redundant boost gauges, but the obvious answer is to have another boosted car to use the spare in.  :)

Electronic boost control:  usually you want a weaker spring in the wastegate since the wastegate will only see pressure when the controller wants it to open.  There are also dual port wastegate that use boost pressure to keep the WG shut, and when it wants it to open boost switches to the opening side which makes boost control very accurate.  Without a dual port wastegate, you really just need the spring pressure to be able to keep WG shut under boost, otherwise it can open and you won’t be able to control boost as accurately.  Flip side is if WG is too small, it won’t flow enough air to prevent boost creep which means you’ll exceed your set limits.

Rabin
 

 

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OK great I'll check in with Giles. He's had my pump since mid June so I'd expect that it will be done soon!
Unfortunately my boost gauge is part of a dual-purpose EGT and boost gauge that I got. I will measure boost from the manifold for that gauge but the boost controller will be referencing right off the compressor housing. So I'll at least get to see the pressure drop across my tubing! The boost controller gauge I will probably hide away in a less conspicuous part of the car. I really won't need to see it once it's dialed in too.

I've heard that about the weaker spring being better. Makes sense, it will probably allow the controller to more quickly actuate the wastegate with less resistance. So I will probably use a 8 psi spring or something like that for my WG actuator.

I'm getting close to being ready to drop the engine back in so I can see exactly how tight it will be and where I should run intake plumbing stuff. Any recommendations on custom intake fabrication? I saw frozen boost had a bunch of silicon hoses that I could probably order once I know exactly how it will all fit.

Wade

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I haven’t looked at my boost controller instructions, but I’ve always used the intake as the boost reference for control as it’s a smoother more accurate signal for analogue boost controllers.  Might want to consider using a T and run both off manifold.  Another trick I used was I plumbed the boost lines with pneumatic signal line, there is zero flex and the controller worked so much better.  In high heat areas I just used brake line.

Where are your running your EGT probe?

Vibrant makes some very handy fabrication products - should be able to find them online.

wastegate on both my V70R’s are 4.5psi static.  You actually need to set it there with the rod adjustment so the factory electronic boost control works proper.  There’s no issues with WG opening on these, and I was doing 21psi on my last car no problem.

Take lots of pics of the install!  Will be curious to see what ends up best for the IC.  
 

Rabin

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Hey @Bean

I'll look into the boost reference details. My turbo already has a fitting that I could easily run a line to, so I'm tempted to just use it. But if that's inferior I won't. Seeing mixed opinions online, I'll do more research.
EGT probe is going to be installed in the EGR block-off plate shown in the picture.

Good to know, I'll use a similarly floppy spring in my WG actuator kit.

Also, @PeugeotPilotand I would like to know more about your research on BA10/5 torque upper limit! What has led you to believe that it can handle 300-350 ft lbs?

Wade

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Boost signal off the compressor isn't usually as clean as the manifold, and the intake manifold actually is a better reference since it'll reflect boost the engine is seeing, not boost in the compressor housing.  I had a boost gauge in my 505 turbo and it worked SO much better of a manifold port than it did off the compressor housing - it was much more gradual than and the needle was smoother and more consistent.

EGT:  Only thing I'd worry is there might be a delay in the response if the temp sensor isn't in the exhaust stream.  Manifold pressure should be fine though - are you using a mechanical gauge for manifold/drive pressure?

Torque:  That figure comes from damn near 30yrs of constant research, but since no one has ever done much of any mods, and there's no documented proof or even technical specifications that I've ever come across - it's very much still unknown.  One thing I know is that the stock N9TEA is rated at 210 ft*lbs and there's no way they'd use a trans with a max rating of 220 ft*lbs if there wasn't a factor of safety involved.  Rule of thumb is usually a 3x factor of safety, but even if it was only 2x - that still means 300 -  350 ft*lbs is a reasonable estimate assuming you're not doing clutch dumps, and you're being reasonable, and you're not running high grip tires on a prepped surface.  Turbo power is usually much more gradual than the instant torque from a V8 (or driveline torque like in the 4WD Jeeps), so in a RWD car with skinny touring tires, the trans *should* be able to handle 300-350.  I'd also highly recommend using Redline 75W90NS in the trans and the diff.

That said - You're entirely on new ground, and pretty much all the advice I've given you is theoretical when it comes down to it.  I've got 30+ years of mechanical experience that I've merged with 30+ years of knowing and researching these cars, but I've not had the opportunity to verify anything.  I'm quite confident in my advice to you as I'm sharing exactly what I planned to do myself - But until it gets on a dyno and there is verified actual power being made, and the car survives mechanically, will anyone know for sure if the numbers are safe.  

At some point - power will get made and something will break, but until then it's all conjecture.

Rabin

 

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Hey @Bean

Yeah the EGT sensor isn't in a perfectly ideal location, but I'm hoping it will work well enough / there will be enough swirl in the manifold to maintain an accurate reading.
Hugh provided me with the html files for the now defunct Australian site "Hot Five-Ohs". Here is their unverified opinion on BA10 torque limits: 
 

Quote

Later the BA10 5 speed was also used in some Indian Jeeps, made by Mahindra, which used a Peugeot Indenor Diesel engine. The reliable road use torque limit of the BA10 gearbox seems to be approximately 300Nm, although they may take a bit more torque if driven carefully. The 4 litre Jeeps which used the BA10 produced 304Nm of torque, although many of the parts used in these were different to other versions of the BA10.

So that's a different perspective out there. 300 Nm corresponds to 220 ftlbs. I'd be interesting if some of the other members of this forum, particularly the tuners in Australia, have any comment on this. @Stewart?

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What’s funny is Australia’s didn’t get very many ba10’s, they never got the turbo cars, and I’m pretty sure v6 numbers are very very low.  So even there it’s conjecture and estimations at play.
 

@Tama , @d00zerand @V-M are the only ones that I know of with modified turbo cars that run the BA10/5….  

I’ve launched HARD in my 505 Turbos on R-compound tires when I used to autocross, and I’ve never run into an issue.  Guarantee that even a modified diesel isn’t going to launch as hard as I did running 12psi, and I had wheel spin all the way through first and into second.

Rabin

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On 8/12/2021 at 7:29 PM, wadehilts said:

Hey @Bean

Yeah the EGT sensor isn't in a perfectly ideal location, but I'm hoping it will work well enough / there will be enough swirl in the manifold to maintain an accurate reading.
Hugh provided me with the html files for the now defunct Australian site "Hot Five-Ohs". Here is their unverified opinion on BA10 torque limits: 
 

So that's a different perspective out there. 300 Nm corresponds to 220 ftlbs. I'd be interesting if some of the other members of this forum, particularly the tuners in Australia, have any comment on this. @Stewart?

To add some context to this, Dave McBean's site is the ONLY place I've ever read about BA10/5 torque limits.  Also, "seems to be" is not the same as "is rated by the factory at" so I don't know where Dave got his numbers from.  I like Rabin's numbers a lot better.  I plan to put a turbo PRV into something at some point in the not-too-distant future, and the engine I have lined up for my STX is also apparently producing significantly more torque than that number in normally aspirated form.  I want to use BA10/5s in both applications, so if that gearbox will live behind an engine producing 300-ish lb-ft of torque, I'd be pretty happy.

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Just to say, I've found this thread via a google search and am following with great interest. I've got a 2.5t ldv400 van with a naturally aspirated xd3 in it, and a good condition xd3t on my bench waiting to go in it's place. I'm planning on the same mods you mention and have a similar goal in mind for hp and torque figures. Lucky for me, I have loads of space in the engine bay to play with...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey Arthur, what workshop manuals do you have? I might be interested!

Also, an update. I've been having a bear getting the oil return line sorted. The hose barb on the XD3T block wants a 7/8" ID oil hose, which is hard to find. I finally sourced one and then used a 90 degree adaptor to go to 3/4" oil line which was close enough to clamp onto the 5/8" drain cock from the turbo. Although at this point I'm a bit worried I've ran out of vertical space to properly gravity drain the turbo. I've heard the turbo drains need a clear path to the block without pooling being possible. I think the low spot on my hose may be baaarely too low. I can cut the barb on the turbo down though and get another inch. I have a lot of heat sheild material on the hose too so I'm hoping it won't be cooked by the exhaust heat. I also plan to use header wrap where possible too to minimize heat radiation. Here are some pics:

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PXL_20210829_214153447.jpg

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@Bean Been figuring out how the boost controller would work out and sketching out plumbing a little more today. I think I can say for almost certain, without even putting the engine in the car, that this IC would not fit in a vertical orientation. However, this doesn't stop me from drilling and tapping a hole on the top of the IC (see photo with X on IC), where I could install a bleed screw on the highest edge of the IC. that should allow me to get 99% of the air out of the intercooler when I bleed the system. I'll have the filler cap inline with the 3/4" hose somewhere where I can make sure its the highest point in the system - even if only during bleeding.
Big thanks again to Rabin for doing years of research before I even knew anything about engines, my project would have been much less exciting if it weren't for your counsel!

Wade

PXL_20210831_201935336.jpg

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Any chance you can do the oil drain line in metal?  I’ve done lines with soldered copper before and it worked great - that way you can use 45’s and get a much better / higher drain path.

If you have a welder handy you could weld up metal line to do the same thing.

IC coolant - bleed screw will work for sure with a higher fill point, but I’d try to keep the fill point higher even if you need to put it on the firewall. Not a fan of systems that don’t self bleed, so ideally if you ran a tube from that location to your fill pot you’d be set. 
 

Rabin

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I ended up taking Rabin's advice, I cut the OEM hard line and spliced it into the fitting for the TD04 turbo hardline. The TD04 sits a significant amount lower than the OEM turbo does, but I was able to get away with a quick 45 degrees right off the bottom. then I have double heat shielded oil hose running to the barb on the block. I also got a turbo blanket for the exhaust housing, so that should keep my rubber components safe from getting cooked. Here are some pics of the final set-up!
Next up I need to fabricate a mounting bracket for the wastegate actuator - which will be dependent on how I end up deciding to clock the turbo and route the intake plumbing.

PXL_20210906_191302890.jpg

PXL_20210906_192506440.jpg

PXL_20210906_192510915.jpg

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Hey @luizsantana! Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

It looks like you had your block bored out, and liners installed! Nice. For reference the engine I'm using is an original XD3T from a 1985(?) 505, it had 45k original miles and I haven't done any internal mods to it. I'm hoping the pistons, cylinder walls and bearings will all be in decent shape.

You brought something to my attention about the head gasket. @Bean you may find this interesting too.

I went digging in the Peugeot spare parts manuals and found a lot of different part numbers for the head gaskets. See picture below. Translating from French, it appears all part numbers with "<b" after them include the head bolts and washers, while those without "<b" do not have bolts and washers. The "<b" part numbers all correspond to earlier head gaskets. It's my understanding that the XD3T bolts are not torque to yield, I don't know if anyone can confirm that.

It also appears that two different versions of the head gasket existed - one with asbestos and one without. I don't know which is better, but it appears @luizsantanahas one without asbestos. Looking on serie04.com (see other picture) I was able to confirm that the asbestos head gaskets appear to have less material, so if I had to guess I should shoot for a non-asbestos part number.

This leaves me with one last question. "crans" is notches, what does that mean? It appears there are 2, 3 and 4 notch versions of the head gaskets. Does this correspond to some piston size tolerance or something? It appears that the 2 notch gaskets on serie04 are 1.53mm and the 4 notch are 1.73 mm. It appears @luizsantana has the 1.53 (2-notch) version. I can purchase 0209.C7 and 0209.D1 on serie04 now (both 4-notch versions), I guess I would choose the later version 0209.C7? Since I don't know what head gasket in is the car now, I am thinking I should probably go ahead and replace it. If sourcing a 2 notch version would be better I can keep searching too! I guess it would give me a little more compression? My best guess is the thicker gasket is for a head that has been skimmed?

xd3t_headgasket_compare_serie04.JPG

XD3T_headgaskets.JPG

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The notch number corresponds to the amount of piston protrusion at TDC.  So you’re supposed to measure how much the piston sticks out and order the HG accordingly.  What I don’t know however is what the range is, or if you just order the gasket closest to but over your measured protrusion.

Too thick and you drop compression and lose HP and efficiency.

And welcome indeed to @luizsantana - Your English is fine!  Thanks for joining up and sharing all this.  Any chance you have a parts list with part numbers and such?

And feel free to start a build thread if you want!  It’s got a Peugeot heart so it works for me.  (Or a link to an existing one if you have it documented elsewhere)

Rabin

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Hi, sorry for the delay - I forgot to follow the thread. It's great seeing all this info, as you are quite a lot further on than me. I've currently got the engine totally stripped and cleaned. I've currently got new main and big end bearings, all gaskets, head gasket, valve stem seals and water pump - anything else you think I should replace as a matter of course? I'd like about 140hp but it's mostly more torque I'm after. Its going in a 3.5t van so top end speed isn't high on my list of priorities, but acceleration and hill climbing grunt is. The van currently has the non turbo xd3 in it and that is gutless, like 20mph up steel hills. Still, its nice to have the xd3t on a stand and be able to take my time with it while still using the van. 

It's a 1995 ldv 400, so I have the ldv workshop manual for the engine, covering pretty much everything I think you could wish to know. I also have the Haynes manual for a second opinion as it were! I have the ldv manual in digital form so can email it or post here if allowed.

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Hi Arthur,

Torque will be directly correlated to boost, so the lower down you can build boost the better,  but the problem with normal turbos is that faster spool means smaller turbos which will choke quickly.

The TD04-13T that is being used should boost fairly quickly and still be able to flow throughout the power and, but the ideal for immediate boost and maximum torque would be to use a variable geometry turbo with a dedicated controller, so it just depends where your budget cap limit is.

Once Wade confirms what the 13T is like however, it might be so good the variable geometry might not be needed.

BTW -Where did you get all your engine rebuild parts?

Rabin

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Variable geometry can also work without any controller, just some actuator using boost pressure.

The Fiat Croma TDid and the Renault espace 2.1 dtv had this kind of setup, too bad that the turbos are on the small side for a XD3T (92/94hp for these smaller engines).

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I looked at a bunch of analogue control circuits, but with a computer controlled version they anticipated boost needs better so they had much better / wider boost control.

Most of the VW IDI threads I followed found a well sized turbo was almost as good as an analogue controlled variable geometry turbo without all the added complexity.  That said - the only ones I found were modified turbos that were computer controlled stock turbos originally.  Are the turbos you mentioned manually controlled from factory?

Rabin

 

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Yes, these engines have mechanical pumps so there is no engine ECU to control boost or even share usefull information with a boost controller.

The Fiat one was the first diesel car with a VNT turbo (and before that it was also the first car to have a direct injection diesel engine).

A former coworker of mine had been working at PSA prototype department aroud the time the Fiat engine was launched and he said that it caused quite a stir...

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The only ones I saw were the VW guys that did mTDi conversions.  They removed the electronic controller and had a fairly elaborate analogue system to actuate the vanes.  IIRC the VW turbos were normally open and the controller closed the vanes for low down response.  With analogue the needed vacuum to close the vanes, and boost to open the vanes.  It wasn’t very pretty and tuning it to work well sounded like a nightmare.  If a variable turbo was designed to be analogue that’d be great.

Aftermarket systems I looked at just needed an RPM signal and a TPS rigged up to tell it throttle input - My XD3T has both, but the cost with the turbo I wanted was over $3K.  Since the turbo I wanted (Holset he200vg) was heavily based on the TD04 turbos, I figured they would be a good fit / or a good place to start at least.

Rabin

 

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