Jump to content

XD3T Tuning


wadehilts

Recommended Posts

Hi All,

I have an opportunity to get a low miles (45k) XD3T engine that is sitting on ice an hour away from me. I'm planning to drop it in my 1982 Peugeot 604 BA10/5.

Before I do that, I've been exploring some tuning that I could possibly do. Here's kind of my general plan:
1. Get an Exhaust gas Temp sensor and Boost Gauge
2. Find an XD2 (non turbo) Intake Manifold
3. Cut and weld shut the Exhaust Gas Recirculator valve openingĀ on the exhaust manifold
4. Add a intercooler and route it from the turbo to the XD2 intake (better clearances than XD2S which has like 2 inches of room between it and the intake)
5. Turn up boost with boost controller from 8 psi to 12-15 psi
6. Turn up fuel on injector pump (easy as turning a screw)
7. ????
8. 150 HP easy!

I don't know if I will be able to shoe-horn an intercooler in there with the A/C and everything, but if I swap in a different air filter assembly I'm hoping that would free up enough space to run intake hosing by. This may just not be possible tho. I'm curious how the XD3TE's fit an intercooler in - that may be the way to go too! XD2s manifolds would just be easier to find in the US.

Would love to hear people's thoughts!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 104
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Hi Wade,

You might want to give a read through my wagon build thread: Ā Yes I suck and itā€™s terribly old with no updates, BUT(!) - I still have everything for the car plus more, still waiting.

I personally would advise against ā€œjust turningā€ the screw as it adds base fuel not boost referenced fuel. Ā Thereā€™s also the boost pin and the regulator mod - but really the best way is to send the pump into Performance Diesel and have Giles tune it.

I researched the crap out of modifying them pulling from IDI VW as well as IDI MB mods guys were doing.

Also - the turbo housing should be clockable, so you should be able to rotate the compressor away from the I take inlet. Ā The xd3te intake has the intercooler in a similar spot as the N9TE, but the intake inlet points up.

Rabin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doing a top mount would be easiest, but I was looking at clocking the compressor housing so it was pointing down, then running a vertical IC on the passenger side to keep plumbing short. Ā Itā€™d need ducted cold air, but you wouldnā€™t need to figure out how to get it in front of the AC condenser that way.

I donā€™t think Iā€™ve mentioned it, but Iā€™ve also got an ā€˜86 505sĀ TD 5sp Sedan. Ā I bought it as a parts car for the wagon (ie: 5spĀ wagon), but the immediate plan is to get the sedan running and possibly plate it for a summer DD. Ā Ordered a new fuel filter for the new filter head I had, and will swap that in to see if that fixes my no start. Ā If it does - She gets a quick once over to replace all fluids, and then plates.

Rabin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah that's a good idea. If I get rid of that big foam cylinder air filter that will buy me some real estate. Still going to be tight as hell in there tho! I'm hesitant to do any major surgery on the 604 too as I'd like to keep the body as original as possible..

Do you have an idea of how you'd duct in the cold air?
Another idea I had yesterday was setting up a air to water intercooler. If the sizing works out, it would allow me to run water lines in a similar fashion as the oil cooler lines. Then I could mount a heat exchanger on the other side of the body below the radiator, right next to the oil cooler! Assuming all that fits, I could swap in a cone-type air filter that takes up less space, and then hopefully be able to put an air-to-water IC anywhere I can fit it..

Thoughts? I'm going to consult some local fabricators on this, as I don't know how big the IC and heat exchangers will need to be to support 15 psi of boost.

Wade

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you! I'll keep that in mind. I know the N9T** 505s had a special grill and the 505 hood is a obviously gonna be a bit different, so there's a few unknowns there, but the top mount intercooler would be a nice "true to Peugeot" way to go.Ā Where are you located? I'm in Portland, OR.Ā 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Update on my scheming:

https://www.frozenboost.com/air_water-ic/small-liquid_air-intercooler-p-210.html

I found this water to air intercooler. It's 11x9x3.5" in size, which is quite compact - I bet I could squeeze that in if I take out the air filter!. It says it's rated up to 450 CFM / 350 HP. I ran the XD3T stats thru a CFM calculator that gave me about 420 CFM max for the 2498 cc with a volumetric efficiency of 2.0. Another rule of thumb is to multiply the HP by 2.5. If I do that I get 375 CFM. So it looks like this intercooler would be big enough for the XD3T with 15 psi of boost and making 150 HP.

Happy to hear if anyone else has opinions or thoughts on that. As far as heat exchangers go, their standard option for theĀ intercooler I'm looking at is a 19 row 10.75x11x2" radiator. I'm wondering if I could maybe get away with their next size smaller which is a 13 row 7.5x11.5x2 or even the next size down 10 row 5.75x11.5x2 - which would fit very nicely under the bumper at that size!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK! After some more measuring I think I found the solution that FrozenBoost would formally approve of:
I can mount the heat exchanger they offer specifically for the water to air intercooler that is a 30-row, 10x13x2 radiator right in front of the radiator on the drivers side. If I remove the old 12" A/C fan and replace it with a 10", that would give me plenty of room. Then its just a matter of shoe-horning the intercooler in anywhere, which I have plenty of space to make that happen and routing the intake hoses. I think we've got a winner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I looked at doing the very same thing - right down to the frozenboost intercoolers!

Where I started to get second thoughts and eventually went back to figuring out an air to air solution was (AndĀ especially with diesels) -Ā I really like adhering to the KISS principle: Ā Keep It Simple Stupid.

The electric coolant pump is what finally did me in - by the time I figured out what would should be the best pump for the job (Bosch Motorsport pump at the time),Ā the idea was well over $1000cdn and the complexity of an electric pump and another cooling system just had me rethink and return to air to air. Ā Placing and air to air, and then figuring out ducting so one side had high pressure air and low pressure on the other side seemed like a better more simple way to go.

I do hope this is the right system for you, and am very interested to see if it is something you do - but for my pesos I figured if Iā€™m adding complexity a variable geometry turbo with a standalone controller would have a better power and drive ability return for the $$$ spent. Ā :)

Rabin

Ā 

Ā 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well that price just makes it a no brainer, but just know that pump might not cut it. Ā 

ā€œ

  • Designed with a minimum 1500-hour service life in mind, these pumps come with a 3 year warranty direct from Rule/ITT. However, use with high temperature water and/or antifreeze/coolant may void this warranty.

When I researched it years ago that was the big negative - finding an electric coolant pump that would have OE longevity was the problem, but thereā€™s LOTS of OEĀ electric water pump options now. Ā 
Ā 

Hopefully thereā€™s a way to have it only turn on when needed, but another tip I remember was that itā€™s nice to have a manual override for max cooling when needed.

Rabin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They offer this OE Bosch air to water intercooler pumpĀ https://www.frozenboost.com/liquid-air-adapter/water-to-air-pump-0392022002-p-1001.html?osCsid=tlge2fucudjhiid1m706m21b37Ā  Apparently it only draws 2-3 Amps, which isn't bad. From what I've read they usually just run continuously when the engine is on (simplest way for me would be to wire it into the shutoff solenoid circuit, but I maybe could wire in a tach relay and use the tachometer output on the xd3t ve pump to turn it only only when engine is spinning?). I suppose setting up a thermostat would also be an option too, but if it only draws 3 A I'm not too worried about it. It's +$70 to upgrade to this pump, so it'd bring the total to around $350. I think I'm gonna go this direction, I'll keep every apprised!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Definitely upgrade - Price drop is insane from when I last checked. Ā For that price itā€™s absolutely a no brainer. Ā 
Ā 

Very curious to hear and see that system come together!

Rabin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

OK I kept doing my research on upgrading the turbo and learned a bit on how to read turbo flow charts.Ā 

For the 2498 cc XD3T, I assume a max rpm of 4150 (shop manual's max power rpm) and a VE of about 2.1 to correspond to 16 psi. That lands me at an absolute max of 384 CFM of airflow (which by the 2.5 rule, corresponds to 154 HP - sounds about right). It will most likely be a good amount less than this due to inefficiencies in the intake/exhaust but I'll call it a good upper limit.
Looking at compressor charts for the vd04hl-13G and 13T, it looks like both turbos would probably work. The 13G taps out at around 365 CFM and the 13T more comfortably hits 400. I think I'll probably just go with the 13T so I have a little wiggle room and am not getting close to any limits that may result in smoke. It should still spool nice and fast too which is something I definitely want, while also leaving room for hitting that 150 hp / 280 ft lb target handily.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Hey all,

Build update! Big thanks to @Beanfor giving me tons of advice and informing much of my decisions in this build!
I've settled on my project plans, and hope I can get 160 hp / 290 ftlbs out of this XD3T. Here's what I've done/am doing:

  • Having Giles rebuild VE pump from an XD2S (they have a 10 mm pump head, where XD3T pumps had a 9 mm) to support 20 psi of boost.
  • Putting in a Volvo TD04HL-13T, with an 11 blade billet wheel. I was able to use a T3 to Volvo adaptor plate for the exhaust housing. I also had to use the straight flange from a different TD04 to get things to fit better.
  • I used the frozen boost air to water intercooler and plan to mount it above in the intake manifold (see pictures).

Here are some pics of my progress so far! Still waiting on the VE pump to be finished.

Rabin, as you've seen on the facebook threads, there has been some concerns raised about the BA10/5 getting lunched by nearly 300 ftlbs of torque. Hugh Logie seemed to recall that the rated torque for the BA10/5 was only 220 ftlbs. Although I do know that the 4.0L Jeep straight sixes put out 224 ftlbs in 1988 and they were in front of a BA10/5. I am probably going to be the guinea pig on this at the end of the day. I was considering doing EBC too but currently don't have that set up.

PXL_20210806_193331052.thumb.jpg.850d5218c603475a5465d36e108eea9d.jpgPXL_20210806_193327101.thumb.jpg.ceab1760c161c6e5010d3fc950350aa4.jpgPXL_20210806_193323073.thumb.jpg.f1eb983b50ca48b62f0e9cc07385666f.jpgIMG_20210809_100238_01.thumb.jpg.dc621a05b62dcd64c945da443cdf5c0f.jpgIMG_20210806_124043_974.thumb.webp.a660334c48f200818770d0be24a9e36a.webp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah that's good to know. I sent Giles pictures and information about each pump. I think he does a lot of internal modifications, but I'm not sure exactly what they are. His recommendation was that I go with the XD2S pump but he was aware that the XD2S engine was smaller displacement and had less power output.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Piston diameter: Ā From my research the 9mm pump was from manual cars, and the 10mm pump was from automatic cars. Ā You can see the difference in the plates in my stock pump compared to the AAZ cam plate that was used in my pump. Ā 10mm pump is totally the way to go if you have one.

BA10/5 torque: Ā My research had the torque limit of the BA10/5 at the 300-350 ft*lbs range, and oddly enough the BA10/4 is supposed to be stronger yet according to Thanos who built some amazing 504 V6 historic rally cars. Ā Key to it living will be power delivery, but the tires will also be a fuse of sorts so the tires will spin before the trans blows. Ā The case deflection theory is due to the gear profile - the comparisons to the super production cars isnā€™t quite accurate as I understood those cars used straight cut gears which donā€™t exert the same separation loads that taper cut teeth can under load.

Intercooler: Ā Iā€™d strongly recommend mounting the cooler vertically beside the engine, clock the turbo compressor housing so the exit is horizontal and run it into the bottom, the exit out the top can route into the intake. Ā Iā€™d also consider having the intake modified so the inlet is pointing horizontally as well. Ā Biggest reason is since itā€™s liquid cooled youā€™ll never get the IC completely full unless you have a tank thatā€™s even higher which I doubt you can do with it mounted on top. Ā By mounting it vertically the IC will be easy to keep 100% full, easy to bleed, and it even keeps the weight down lower if you really want to squeeze out positives. Ā Secondary benefit will be much cleaner and shorter piping with fewer bends, which means less restrictions.

turbo fasteners: Ā Make sure theyā€™re turbo spec fasteners as the heat they see will cause even metric 10.9 hardware to fatigue and loosen.

Boost control: Ā AEM Tru Boost is a very sweet electronic boost controller that should work very well for managing / tuning boost levels. Ā I wouldnā€™t do a manual controller. Ā Alternatively I bet there is arduino code somewhere if you wanted to save some bucks and build a DIY controller. Ā Ā 

Looks amazing BTW! Ā Pretty stoked youā€™re able to put these ideas and plans into action!

Ā 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey @Beanthanks for your input! Some great advice.

Some responses:Ā 

  1. Piston Diameter: I did a fair bit of research on this and the VE pump part numbers show that XD2S were all 10 mm and XD3T were all 9mm (for the VE pumps at least). This is explicit in the part number. E.g.Ā VE4/10F2125R67-1 has the application code R67, and the -1 demonstrates automatic. Automatic Transmission models have a different cam speed, e.g. 2125, than the manuals - but pump head is the same. The manual and automatic XD2S have the same 10 in the part number for the piston head diameter.Ā 
  2. BA10/5: good news there! hopefully I'll stay just below anything catastrophic
  3. Intercooler mounting: you're right about the bleeding. My current setup is going to be tricky at best. My problem is that with A/C and the 604 engine bay I don't have very much room to work down there. I think for now I'm gonna just have to wait until I can drop the engine back into the car to see how everything fits. Worst case, I may have to route my IC coolant hosing and everything such that the IC can be repositioned to bleed it upon install without cracking open the system. Gonna be a headache for sure..
  4. Turbo fasteners: good call there! like an idiot I had used stainless. A little metallurgy research showed me that was a bad idea. Best I could do at the hardware store was 10.9. It's a bit of a pain because the T3 flange takes M10 bolts and the volvo takes m8, and they each require studs at the same spot. I went with M8s and used the M10 holes as pass thru holes but that definitely came with its own set of challenges and it was tricky to get everything assembled.
  5. Now that I'm less nervous about the BA10, I'm down to do boost control. Why not! I'll look into the product you recommended. I have a manual boost actuator kit that has variable spring sizes for different boost levels and well as actuator arm length. It is pretty tight back there so the OEM actuator was an impossible fit, especially after re-clocking the turbo.

Wade

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wanted to share another couple neat things I've done so far. I used the opportunity of my EGR block off plate to tap two 1/4" NPT fittings. I got some ISS pro gauges that will display EGT, Exhaust Back pressure, and turbo boost. Since I'm doing EBC, I'll have a redundant boost gauge that is also the boost controller. But I may hide that anyways.Ā 
My biggest technical concerns now are:

  1. How the hell do I time the pump? I will just have to go by ear? I'm using a XD2S pump with an XD3T engine. Worried about first start up going smoothly tbh
  2. Fitting the intercooler and plumbing in a spot that is easily bled / makes sense / works.

PXL_20210810_222553789.thumb.jpg.c3f62272bda2d0d7db1efc32d951ce56.jpgPXL_20210810_222543146.thumb.jpg.efeeb414945ee3d85f5fd081c009bcf0.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...