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boostin'euro89

89 PRV wagon project

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Hi guys, 

So Ive got an 89 Wagon (originally Automatic-Turbo) rolling shell (no engine or trans), and an 87 5 speed (manual) STX (V6 PRV) that is ugly and rusty...

What I would like to do is swap the PRV 5 speed combo from the STX into the 89 wagon. Is it even possible? What tail-shaft would be best suited? (Ive been trying to find the Diff Ratio chart i thought i saw on the forum many moons ago)

Some of the info Ive gathered so far, the PRV motor sits too far back when using the original N9TEA subframe and would require modifications to the firewall. 

I would like to swap this setup in with as little fabrication as required. (hopefully, otherwise I will likely dismantle both of the cars and keep what i have space for)

Reading through some previous posts from 2014, I found that this swap has been done, but required modifying the front control arms when using the STX subframe and also a custom/modified tail shaft.

If I understand correctly, (haven't been under either car recently) the auto wagon, (or any 505 wagon?) has a U-joint at the tail of the trans, whereas the STX (or any sedan) does not require the Ujoint.

What do you guys think? Any help would be appreciated..

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Did you message @TimV?

My personal guess without re-reading Tim’s swap into would be to swap the entire front cross member with suspension and struts included.   The 5sp will be shorter, but I would suggest building a spacer for the transmission, and an extension / replacement of the comically small and hollow u-joint connection.  

Saying that now I may have to re-read Tim’s comments on his swap because I think he had to shorten the torque tube and shaft?  
 

Regardless, I’ve got some spare wagon u-joints, and a wagon torque tube and shaft I can take pictures off so you know what you’re getting into.  All I know is the u-joint is comically fragile looking and it really needs upgrading - caveat is the housing it has to operate in is also comically small.  
 

Rabin

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I'm the one that put an 87 V6 auto drive train in an 89 Turbo Wagon. I assume you found my post on this forum of the project? I used the V6 crossmember and an old horse collar style rear transmission mount. The wagons had two different length torque tubes and driveshafts. The length you will need is in between. I took tons of measurements and had a machine shop shorten both. The dimension is critical if you want the rear wheels to be in the right location. I saved that info somewhere, so if you decide to do it I should be able to dig up the numbers. the location of the front control arms will change so I carefully bent a little offset in them with the aid of heat, but do so at your own risk. The other option is to put in the front suspension from the STX  but then you have the brake parts made out of unobtainium. You will also need to change most of the wiring harnesses forward of the seats as well as the cluster and ECUs. Also all of the A/C bits except the evaporator. I found a new SD 709 compressor with the correct fittings made for 134a. You will need good wiring diagrams for both cars. The ones in Alldata are direct copies from Peugeot and you can buy subscriptions to both cars for not a lot at Alldatadiy.com. And many of the welded brackets under the hood have to be changed out. I was working on European road cars at a shop when I did mine, so we had Alldata for all imports. Now I work on race cars, so we don't have it. Sorry if this is rambling, but I'm doing this in stream of consciousness. I have been a professional mechanic for 42 years and a certified master tech for 40 of them and it was way more than I bargained for. If you aren't discouraged yet and want to try it, I took tons of pictures and I can send them and copies of my notes if you private message me. I moved since then so it may take a bit to dig it all up.

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Now that I read Bean's reply, the u-joint is held to the transmission with a special allen bolt. The sedan transmissions also have the threaded output shaft so it bolts right up and rides on the same bearing as the drive shaft. We were getting u-joints from Madhu when he was with Disortex and they were beefier than the stock ones. He has his own business now, [email protected] and phone number is 281-531-5752. This info is several years old. Now I see you have a manual trans, which is shorter, so the driveshaft will be a problem. I used 3.89 diff which is the same as the STX auto, so the shifts and speedo all work correctly. The 3.89 was in the 5 speed wagons with the XN6 engine.

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Thanks Tim!  

I’d still use the abs suspension because the 944 front brake disks aren’t that hard to fit to the 505 hubs.  There’s a couple ways to it, both relatively simple given this swap difficulty.

Rear diff - Sedan diff internals fit the wagon housing so worse case scenario you can put the sedan ring and pinion in the wagon diff, or just live with the speedo error, or use a speedo correction unit.

Here’s some pics of the torque tube end and the tiny u-joint used:


That should help visualize what you have to work with.

Rabin

096AB4FA-5F05-4550-A59A-C921943B5B53.jpeg

6BFD015B-79D0-439E-AD26-565F7220D9D2.jpeg

DF0B955F-A541-4AAB-944A-903DC3CC3465.jpeg

9215E4A5-A8EF-4195-85D5-EFF1EBF43CAC.jpeg

8CB1BE93-51C0-4DAA-8976-CA21BBA02552.jpeg

1B9BFE47-9639-43AA-A2C0-0C707DB90CDE.jpeg

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@TimV @Bean 

This is awesome! I am definitely still interested in getting this project going, whatever documents, calculations and emotional support you can provide while I attempt to get through this would be great! 

The STX had a set of brand new ABS rotors slapped on it before it sat in the lot for a few years, along with a new clutch, slave and master, so I'm hoping I can get the rotors turned or blasted as I remember Bean suggesting if that's the route I end up going. 

So what would make this simpler? using the entire front suspension and subframe from the STX, figure out a trans mount in the rear and determine the length of extension/shortening of the tail shaft or possibly modifying the U joint to compensate? 

I see Tim mentioning that there were 2 lengths for the wagon tail shafts, it would be a blessing to have any dimensional data, schematic references and such. 

I've got a million questions, but now have a little better understand of what I'm getting into.

The STX has to be stripped regardless, and the wagon has no drivetrain, so I'd say a 1/4 of the work is done. 

I've rebuilt and modified ECU harnesses on mostly Japenese cars, but a lot of sensors, switches are interchangeable, and I've got the theoretical/hands on knowledge from Avionics, coming from a technical background I think if I've got the support from you guys, and the confidence from Tim that he enjoyed the Auto PRV in the wagon, that the 5 SPD PRV wagon would be an enjoyable car. 

My first 'winter' car/daily was our 89 SW8 in navy blue, just like Tims old car, (do you still have it? What happened?) while the 89 5 SPD turbo Sedan hibernated in the garage, theres Peugeot in my blood, and I've kept these cars for too long to just give up on them, but still need all the motivation I can get!

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@Bean the pictures speak a thousand words, I meant to ask if someone had any tail shafts/transmission laying around. 

Just re-reading your post I realized I missed where you mentioned pretty much exactly what I asked would be the best route, my bad. 

@TimV so this is a dash out, steering column dismantled, climate removed type of job eh? 

Sounds like the wagon has to almost be stripped to its bare bones....

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I’d be tempted to assemble the transmission to the torque tube stock length, then make new motor mounts to place the motor wherever it lands when bolted to tranny depending on the difference of course.

If motor is forward 2-4 cm it should be easy to accommodate and you wouldn’t have to mess with any custom adapters or machining.  Could only validate if that’s doable if Tim has his measurements still, but if I TD swap my Wagon I might do the same thing.

Rabin

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Climate control stays in place, just change A/C and heater hoses. I kept the wagon steering and eliminated the VAS servo. The rack will be a little forward so you use the V6 lower shaft, but the column remains the same. I think I have the stock lengths of both torque tubes also. I'll dig up that stuff when I get a chance. In the meantime, here's a picture of the trans mount with braces to spread the horizontal load. There is also a bolt from the top.

Mount.jpg

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BTW, the Turbo wagons had a 4.11 diff. I used to have a sheet that listed all of the 505 diffs and what they came in, it came from a forum. Maybe someone still has a copy? I kept it in the factory manual which I didn't get to keep.

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Rabin & TimV has already explained a lot concerning converting Inline-4 505 to V6 (ZN3J). But just to add a little.

The front engine crossmember of V6 505 is different from other 505s. So, it has to be replaced with the V6 one to work, unless you wouldn't mind to do some constructions to make it work.

But from what I know, if you intend to use V6 front suspension control arms, you will have to replace the radiator mount/sitting, shock absorbers, and probably the brake caliper, discs, etc. In fact, you will likely end up replacing every mechanical components in front end with V6 which will cost you more, unless you have a donor V6 car to pull those parts from. If you don't want to touch those parts, then you are only likely to replace the engine crossmember. 

The V6 front anti-roll bar is thicker, including the front control arms. Probably, it helps with the road handling. I also know the V6 front brake calipers are different, especially the ABS ones. 

 

It really depends on how much you are willing to spend or how V6 you want the 505 to be (full V6 mechanicals or just the engine, gearbox, torque tube and propeller shaft). 

Ikenna351, Lion King - Monk.

 

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I forgot to mention.

The V6 front control arms and anti-roll bar comes with an annoyance. Their bushings are no longer easily available, even here in Nigeria. One of my V6 anti-roll bar bushings failed fee years ago and I couldn't find a replacement. I ended up buying the 4 cylinder one and cut it to fit in on the V6, which took some time. Now the 2nd one has failed.

What we do here is to find any bushing that can fit in, even from different model of Peugeot or brand. Sometimes, we use locally made one from tyres to replace them, which surprisingly last longer than normal new ones in the market (though feels harsh on bumps). However, the suspension bushings & stabilizer links for the 4-cylinder 505s are very much available in Nigeria. Though fake or low quality products, but at least, you have something to put there to put there pending when they fail again. They are cheap anyway.

Likewise, V6 brake discs (ABS model) are no longer available (will be surprise to hear one could find one). Luckily, I bought 2 used ones in good conditions few years. I only mounted one and kept the other as spare. Next time, I will simply put non ABS discs, if they will match the calipers and hubs. The 4-cylinder brake discs (non ABS) are easily available, including their calipers.

So, it may make sense to use the 4-cylinder radiator sitting, suspension control arms, front brake components and shock absorbers, as long as they work perfectly with the V6 engine beam/crossmember (unless they really can't fit in well with the V6 crossmember). But if the V6 suspension components are available to you for the project, you can swap them in and then deal with the bushing issues gradually when they fail (maybe they are available over there or you put in one from another model that can work).

Ikenna351, Lion King - Monk.

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