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Joe's '91 405 Mi16...

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I think it’s odd that it’s consistently 2 & 3 that are fouling which makes me think it’s an injector issue.  Quick check would be to switch injectors with 1 & 4 to see if those start fouling.  
 

Rabin

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7 hours ago, estland said:

Looks very familiar when my afm went bad. I think when the engne's cold the afm flap was more open and wiper contacts were on unworn part of the track.

Until the new afm arrives try writing some graphite on the position where the wiper contacts stay at idle.

 

Thank you for the input. I'm expecting the new part any day now, so will be reporting back either way.

 

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6 hours ago, Bean said:

I think it’s odd that it’s consistently 2 & 3 that are fouling which makes me think it’s an injector issue.  Quick check would be to switch injectors with 1 & 4 to see if those start fouling.  
 

Rabin

Hi Rabin, I'm actually getting ready to order those remaining Bosch injectors on rockauto, hesitant to pull the injectors just yet until the fuel pumps are in and the new afm is on. Couple reasons, mainly I don't have new injector seals and would prefer to not have a leak, and secondly, trying to replace parts one at a time to find out exactly the cause of the problem...

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Understandable for sure - But in my mind there were would no way for any of the other components (AFM or fuel pumps) to affect only 2 & 3 spark plugs.  The only way the plugs could be fouling would be excess fuel, or oil from the valve stem seals.  Valve stem seals if they were leaking that bad would be creating so much exhaust smoke you would have mentioned that for sure - that's why I'm thinking poor spray pattern/atomization of the injectors, or they're leaking and the fuel system is depressurizing when it's parked which fouls the plugs AND creates a hard start.  Maybe check your oil level isn't increasing or smelling like fuel as well.

Totally get not doing the plugs without having seals on hand though - but just food for thought while you're doing the work.  

Rabin

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Hi Rabin, again, thanks for the input. I put in another new set of plugs (my 3rd in recent months) the other day, and the car has been running flawlessly since. As it has continued to run better over time, when it would act up I would pull plugs and clean them but then put them back in (lots of mixed views out there on how plugs can be revived from fouled status with a little carb/brake cleaner). Going with the thought that I maybe had some bad fuel and lazy/inconsistent injector performance, as it has continued to clean itself out, I'm curious how these plugs will fair. I could just order the injectors now, but it's another $150 that I may not need to spend. Same with the 2 fuel pumps I bought (another $150) and the used afm (yet another $150). I'm not against replacing any of these parts, as they are all old and likely original, but as you all know, these cars aren't worth much, and while I have no intention whatsoever to ever sell, it is hard to wrap my head around how much money has gone into this car in recent months...again, if it gets me to where everything is fixed and correct, no problem, but the russian roulette of parts is a costly affair...

 

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On a cheerier note, some photos of the car from last night at Buffalo's outer harbor...

 

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Went for another long drive tonight, again, drove excellent, no skips/stumbles at all...we're seemingly getting there...

Also, thanks to Andre's recommendation, installed my jvc head unit with the iso pin connector that arrived this morning. Take a look at the old harness adapter from the previous owner...yes, that is trailer hitch wiring...my new one is a bit better I'll say...

 

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Good to hear you're finally getting somewhere with the hesitation issues. Even if you get through your bad fuel without further problems, I would still eventually send the injectors away for cleaning to save on buying new injectors. If you can confirm you're getting real Bosch injectors for cheap then go for it- I've seen budget injectors on a flow tester and while they match flow rate, they are terrible in terms of atomization and flow pattern vs an oem.

Pictures look great- I'm jealous of your 3 spoke steering wheel and shift knob. You've made me realize my leather interior has been sunburned to a dark purple color. I wish a previous owner would have tinted the windows at some point in the last 30 years. 

The car looks perfect at that ride height- it seems like much more of a drop than the advertised 1inch or so. Did you happen to take measurements before and after? Since our US-spec cars seem to have run a good 1-1.5" higher than European models, I tend to think lowering springs have a much bigger effect.

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Joe, how hard is it for you to pull the throttle body, if i remember right it was hold on with 4 6mm hex head screws, one throttle cable and two small coolant hoses. I'm asking because i had idling issues when i first bought my car, used a full can of throttle body cleaner when was mounted on the engine no change. Then i removed it and clean it in my sink, there are couple of small passages near the butterfly that wore entirely covered with carbon and i could not get to when mounted, i used oven cleaner to dissolve all the carbon, when i mounted it, it was like new and never had idling issues, do make it clear my car never idle like a sewing machine, it always had lumpy idle but never dies, and as you load the engine with clutch, the ecu will increase the idle to allow you to set off without throttle input on level ground. 

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12 hours ago, robotic said:

Good to hear you're finally getting somewhere with the hesitation issues. Even if you get through your bad fuel without further problems, I would still eventually send the injectors away for cleaning to save on buying new injectors. If you can confirm you're getting real Bosch injectors for cheap then go for it- I've seen budget injectors on a flow tester and while they match flow rate, they are terrible in terms of atomization and flow pattern vs an oem.

Pictures look great- I'm jealous of your 3 spoke steering wheel and shift knob. You've made me realize my leather interior has been sunburned to a dark purple color. I wish a previous owner would have tinted the windows at some point in the last 30 years. 

The car looks perfect at that ride height- it seems like much more of a drop than the advertised 1inch or so. Did you happen to take measurements before and after? Since our US-spec cars seem to have run a good 1-1.5" higher than European models, I tend to think lowering springs have a much bigger effect.

 Yes, injectors will definitely be tended to one way or another. Every day I think about ordering 4 new ones, but as the car continues to run well, I may just hold off, and over the winter remove them and have them sent out for cleaning and then reinstall.  Or like I said, I just might bite the bullet and buy the new Bosch ones… 

 Thank you, I agree that the three spoke steering wheel is a must, I can't stand the wheel that came on the 91, if you can get your hands on one, definitely do it. My interior has also held up quite well over the years, the car was definitely taken care of by the owners before me… 

I too like the ride height, and I agree it is definitely more than 1 inch in the front, I did not measure before, but I have to imagine it's been lowered at least two inches at this point in the front. I would not want anything more than this, as I think the ride height overall is great now…

 

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5 hours ago, Goce said:

Joe, how hard is it for you to pull the throttle body, if i remember right it was hold on with 4 6mm hex head screws, one throttle cable and two small coolant hoses. I'm asking because i had idling issues when i first bought my car, used a full can of throttle body cleaner when was mounted on the engine no change. Then i removed it and clean it in my sink, there are couple of small passages near the butterfly that wore entirely covered with carbon and i could not get to when mounted, i used oven cleaner to dissolve all the carbon, when i mounted it, it was like new and never had idling issues, do make it clear my car never idle like a sewing machine, it always had lumpy idle but never dies, and as you load the engine with clutch, the ecu will increase the idle to allow you to set off without throttle input on level ground. 

 When my AFM arrives, I will look into removing the throttlebody for cleaning. I'm surprised it hasn't gotten here yet. But if that doesn't get rid of the check engine light, I'm pretty much out of ideas. The good news is that the car continues to run very well, and is going through the proper cold start sequence, and so on and so forth. Again, still going with the old/bad fuel theory at this point…

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Hi all, my AFM arrived and I installed it along with a new air filter. The car continues to run very well, but the cel is still coming on and off. Oh well. Kind of out of ideas at this point. Still code 52. Have a new O2 sensor, confirmed the ECU is good, and have yet to find a vacuum leak anywhere...

Thoughts?

 

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Another question for you all, regarding my oil temperature. It has been very hot here lately, upper 80's and 90's, and I've noticed the gauge for oil has been reading slightly higher. It typically runs right around the middle between 190 and the next dash, which if to be believed would be around 230. It has never gone past that 230 line but it has come very close lately with these warm temperatures, even barely touching it. You guys think this is ok?

 

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Joe, about the oil temp, that is normal, my car in the summer was around 110 C i've got it even higher close to 150 C those engines can take the temp, There is one more option, on the top of the AFM there is an adjustment, for making small adjustments for the air/fuel mix, on my car because i was running LPG i had to make a correction to get mixture right, it takes very small adjustment and the change takes long time. Perhaps someone has messed with it and now the ECU can't reach what was set. I took my car to a Dyno in the next country over, we use a wideband oxygen sensor and gas analizator to dial in the mixture, and the car improved fuel economy and had more power.

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Goce, thanks for the info. I thought it might be normal too, but again, my best defense to fighting and figuring things out with this car is you all. Otherwise I'm just flying blind here...

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Joe, If nothing else, by the time you figure it out you'll have more knowledge about any fuel injected car than most car mechanics. 😂🤣😁

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Ha, well I have too much respect for real mechanics to ever take a stance like that, but I can say without a doubt that this car has been a learning journey on many levels, and for that I am grateful...

Drove the car a bit again today, still running great, no stumbles or hesitation in weeks now, so now it is just down to the pesky CEL...this is where I may have to take it to a real mechanic again, because I'm out of ideas...

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Just out of curiosity - Have you cleaned / sealed all the electrical connections, as well as all the ground connections?

Sounds almost too simple, but it’s amazing how much better everything can become with good grounds.

Rabin

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Joe,  This is my MI 16 which I sold a few years ago.  I loved the car (had a 405S before that) but it was totally unreliable in the cold weather we get in Calgary.  Anything above minus 15 C was great.  At minus 15 the fuel lines froze up and the complex fumes recircultation system would freeze up and blow all the oil out of the dip stick hole.  the French did not do enough testing in cold weather.  Otherwise I loved the car. 

So I have a few odds and ends in parts that I need to get rid of.  Wondering if you might be interested.  We would have to confirm that they are for the MI and not the 405S.  Let me know what you think.

I love your MI 16 project - looks like it was in very good shape. 

Jim

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4 hours ago, Superblackbird said:

Joe,  This is my MI 16 which I sold a few years ago.  I loved the car (had a 405S before that) but it was totally unreliable in the cold weather we get in Calgary.  Anything above minus 15 C was great.  At minus 15 the fuel lines froze up and the complex fumes recircultation system would freeze up and blow all the oil out of the dip stick hole.  the French did not do enough testing in cold weather.  Otherwise I loved the car. 

So I have a few odds and ends in parts that I need to get rid of.  Wondering if you might be interested.  We would have to confirm that they are for the MI and not the 405S.  Let me know what you think.

I love your MI 16 project - looks like it was in very good shape. 

Jim

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Hi Jim, that sounds fantastic, I would certainly be interested in some of your parts depending on what you have. Send me a private message and we can communicate from there with our contact info. By the way, the Mi16 looks great in black, seems rare. Shame you no longer have it...

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8 hours ago, Superblackbird said:

Joe,  This is my MI 16 which I sold a few years ago.  I loved the car (had a 405S before that) but it was totally unreliable in the cold weather we get in Calgary.  Anything above minus 15 C was great.  At minus 15 the fuel lines froze up and the complex fumes recircultation system would freeze up and blow all the oil out of the dip stick hole.  the French did not do enough testing in cold weather.  Otherwise I loved the car. 

So I have a few odds and ends in parts that I need to get rid of.  Wondering if you might be interested.  We would have to confirm that they are for the MI and not the 405S.  Let me know what you think.

I love your MI 16 project - looks like it was in very good shape. 

Jim

Weird: I ran a 405 DL (XU9J2 engine of course) in Rossland BC for 5 years in temperatures as low as -35C and never had a problem with the oil vapour recovery system or fuel lines.  There was of course a service bulletin about removing the metal gauze from the oil filler to prevent the symptom you describe.  What it would do is not latch the front doors when it was cold due to ice formation inside (after driving 5 minutes it would thaw and they'd latch) and the MOTRONIC would throw Code 52 when driving from Rossland to Trail down the long hill below -15C.

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