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Joe's '91 405 Mi16 (and '90 SW and '92 Mi16)...


91MR2

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If you're down on power a plugged cat could potentially affect AFR's that trigger the code.  If the cat is rattling inside - then the it might be damaged to the point of impeding flow - Any chance you have access to a WB02 or some other way to ensure you have good AFR's?  

Rabin

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Good advice Bean,  might be best to just order a new cat, they're only around $100...

Regarding the wideband, I'll ask my mechanic tomorrow...

I'm getting closer with the car, going to clean up really well and then reinstall the interior over the next few days, give it a proper wash and detail and get it out driving again...

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The Mi16 engine should pull harder and harder till redline, they have linear torque if your car is lazy above 4000 rpm, then you definitely have a clogged catalytic converter, i don't run convertor on my car because i melted the factory one shortly after i bought my car and there are no emission control here. You should check the middle resonator, i've had two rust out from the inside and sound like i have tin can stuck inside of them. I've had 52 code come up if i'm sitting in traffic behind a car that is running badly, because the engine is inhaling flammable air and that is making the ecu trying to take out fuel and is not registering change, i presume you are not disconnecting the battery all the time, because ecu reset is self and needs some time to make a fuel and ignition map from scratch. There is also one hard to find vacuum leak that makes big difference, on the bottom of the fuel regulator there is a port with a small rubber vacuum line that drops the fuel pressure at idle, they like to split at the nipple.

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Goce, thanks for the info., I'll check that vacuum line tomorrow...

Tentative plan is to cut out the cat and put in a straight pipe in it's place...

Good news is the car is down to just the CEL issue, as all the other issues (the surging idle and stumbling / breaking up issue) have been resolved. The CEL which is stil just showing code 52 only seems to come on when on decel and when idling at a stop light/sign. Once moving again, the light goes off and pretty much stays off. Boy, would it be nice if could be solved by removing the damaged cat...but I wait with baited breath on this one...

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Goce, that vacuum line was fine...the search continues...

I started cleaning and re-assembling the interior today, and took the car for a ride. It runs well enough where I can use it even with the occasional 4K-5K stumble. Ordered some Castle Fireball fuel injector cleaner, heard good things. And decided for sure that the cat is getting cut out this week, with a straight pipe going in it's place. Since the cat is already shot and rattling, why not...

Also, got the rear lowered now as well. Starting to come together...

 

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And some photos of the interior re-assembly. I spent much time today using mineral spirits to remove all the deteriorating "soft touch" coating on the interior plastics. I must have spent 4 hours or so on this. I could shoot the idiot that came up with that product...

 

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I've used gasoline on a rag to take it off but is hard work, on the black 405 it had a blue interior, on it i used truck bed liner and painted all the dash parts, door trims hard work it lasted 2 years before a runaway truck pancake it. The engine on the 160hp varian has a noticeable increase in torque at 4500rpm, like V-tec it much more noticeable on my mi16x4 than on other Mi16, not sure why. Are you sure is a stumble not a power increase.

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Got most of the interior back together, just need to put on the steering column surround, and have my homemade floor mats (black house carpet from an old project) bounded at the local carpet store...while it may not run exactly right at the moment, at least it's starting to look good again...

Funny point, the glovebox you see installed is in fact just the glovebox door itself. Since the factory glovebox arrangement is such a sad affair, I decided (even after painstakingly rebuilding the entire unit) it might just break again and be another area to rattle about the interior, so best to just attach the door only for interior look and continuity. I don't need a glovebox, never really use them on any of my cars, and especially in the case of this car, where it will just be a seasonal use daily driver, this just made more sense...

Also, need to install the radio, however...

Does ANYONE have a breakdown of what the colors on the factory connector pin correlate to?

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hi joe

I'm andre, I'm in Los Angeles and I own a 91 mi16 nearly identical to yours. I've been a poor member of the group for a few years now, and I've been meaning to resume posting but something always seems to get in the way. tonight I came to the site and read your build thread (nice!) and it gave me the push I needed to post again.

anyhow, regarding the factory radio connector -- do you have any of the manuals for the 405? if not, I have most of them and I would be happy to send you a scan from the "405 Workshop Manual 1991 Electrical" showing the pinouts. but there is an easier way.

you can buy a Peugeot 405 - to - ISO connector and use that as an adapter; it'll probably have to come from Europe (here's a link to one from the UK) but it'll make the radio installation much easier and cleaner. the one I got even had the wires labelled, but ISO wires are standard colors to it's pretty easy even if you get one that doesn't have the wires labelled. for example, on the one I linked to, the brown ISO connectors goes to the speakers and the black ISO connector goes to the car wiring...on the black connector, the red wire is + ignition switched, the yellow wire is + constant, the black wire is ground (earth), the orange wire is dashboard illumination and the blue wire is power antenna signal. you can just lop off the black connector and connect those wires to your head unit's harness. I'm connecting my head unit to an external amplifier so I'm not using the brown (speaker) connector, but if you're not using an external amp, the wiring on the brown connector is pretty simple: white pair = LF, grey pair = RF, green pair = LR and purple pair = RR (plain wire is positive and black striped wire is negative in every case). the orange connector that attaches to the Peugeot dashboard harness is keyed so it's impossible to get it wrong.

 

hope this helps, happy to answer any questions

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Andre,

Thanks for the post and glad to "meet" you. It was both Savo's threads and yours that got me to join here in the first place. Your car and the way you've gone about your restoration is very similar in my approach to mine, in that we both seem to be after a very nice and usable daily driver type in the end...

I just ordered that iso pin connector that you linked above, thank you for that. I don't think I'll need any scans but will let you know if I do, seems I have all the info. I'll need now. Will advise once it arrives and is connected to my jvc unit...

Regarding my running/stumble issue and cel, they are both still present. My shot catalytic is getting cut out tomorrow, we'll see if that helps...

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Some more updates, but nothing really good...

We had reason to believe that the idle air control valve was not functioning properly, and an old friend of mine who used to be a Volvo tech had a bunch of these old Bosch IAC valves, so I put one in. Not only did the idle surging come back, but the car overall just ran terrible. I'm not sure what to make of all this…

The good news is that the car is looking better than ever…so at least I can stare at it if nothing else...

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Funny how things go- I also have a white 405 (love your profile pic btw) and spent a good amount of time in April/May trying to straighten out and clean up my interior. Glove box was sagging, handle and light fixture were loose, support arms were breaking, and the soft-touch coating inside was deteriorated. 

I didn't go as far as removing the dashboard, so I needed to cut two of the three (upper left was already broken) mounting tabs.

I reinforced the arms with some aluminum rivetted through the plastic doorskin, which takes all the load off the weaker parts of the plastic arms.

It's back in right now, but I'm having trouble getting the door lined up- like you I suspect someone has been there before and I get the feeling I'm missing some metal bracing for the top of the glovebox where it's rivetted to the metal bracket.

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rob, I think the inside of the glovebox is actually flocked (excluding the inside of the glovebox door). there are re-flocking kits available from a number of places, it's certainly one option for refinishing the inside of one's glovebox.

as for missing parts -- are you guys familiar with the Miami Stu website? he has posted nearly all of the 405 parts microfiche plates; there are two different sets of 405 fiches, of course you want the pre-1993 (series 1) version as that's what we got in the US & Canada. these scans are the international version, so not all of the north american-specific parts are in them, but it's still extremely useful for un-muddling one's car, finding parts, etc. he also has the 205 parts fiches there, fwiw

here is the plate for the LHD car glove box

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Robotic, I like your profile picture as well, ha. Sorry, I didn't do mine to copy you, I swear...

I admire your efforts regarding the glovebox, I didn't quite go as far as I decided while repairing mine that it just wasn't necessary. I hate the way it is put together, and yes, while it can be re-engineered and made stonger, it just wasn't worth the time and effort to me. Plus I love being able to easily remove the cover and have instant access to the hvac/heater-core/sensors above...

Andre, thank you for that info., very good to know someone has gone through the efforts to compile this information...

This community has been great to be a part of, so much knowledge and passion, but I suppose that is all that's left to keep these cars going these days...

 

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Back to my running issues...

I'm going to go back in the garage in the next couple days again and pull my plugs and see how they look. Last time I did this, the middle 2 were wet/fouled. New plugs got me going again but only until the running issue came back, so expecting the same thing. The new (used) Bosch IACV only made my running issues worse, so am going to put the old one back in, even if it is suspect. We did a compression test, and all 4 cylinders were near 180, so that is great, but only adds to the confusion, as so many parts have been replaced at this point...

So far, this is what is new: plugs, cap, rotor, wires, O2 sensor, FPR. We also cut the cat out only to find that it was already completely hollowed out, so just welded it back into place. No intake or exhaust leaks found. I have an ignition coil on order as well as a fuel filter, although it does look recent enough...any other ideas?

Again, issues are stumbling/breaking up usually around the 4K-5K rpm range, intermittent CEL showing code 52, and crappy idle and starting...

 

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Does this have a TPS sensor?  If so you should check it for having a linear and smooth progression.

If the TPS has a dead spot or had issues that might cause at stutter/hesitation.

Rabin

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Rabin, thank you for the info. on the tps, I'm not exactly sure how to test it, but I'm sure I can track down someone that knows how to...

Interesting update right now, I went over to the garage several hours ago and pulled the plugs, and as I suspected, two and three, but specifically three looked fairly crappy. I cleaned them up  with a rag and put them back in as well as the old IAC valve and went for a ride. Probably drove about 75 miles. It's stumbled a little bit in the 4-5000 RPM range for probably the first 20 miles, but for the last 50 or so miles, it ran fantastic. I don't think it's stumbled/hesitated once. I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I'm wondering if the castle fireball injection cleaner is working its way through the car and maybe I've just had some bad gas or a lazy injector all along...Seems too simple, but boy did it just run amazing right now…I would be ecstatic if this is the case…

A good indication will be when I start the car again when it is cold. It has not liked starting since this problem has been going on, so if it fires right up when cold, I'm going to say that we are moving in the right direction here...

To be continued…

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MR2, your car must have been sitting for a long time, they like to be driven, did you get it up to redline, and what are you thoughts of how short the gearing is. From your last post i'm thinking you may had a stuck oil scraper oil rings on cylinder 2 and 3. 20 miles = 32 km is what usually takes to get the engine and box up to temp, also as you mention injector cleaner needs time to work and on hot parts it is more effective. The TPS on the Mi16 it can't have dead spots, is not a real TPS, it is double switch, idle and full throttle. 

Welcome back Andre,  You’ve been missed.

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16 hours ago, andrethx said:

rob, I think the inside of the glovebox is actually flocked (excluding the inside of the glovebox door). there are re-flocking kits available from a number of places, it's certainly one option for refinishing the inside of one's glovebox.

as for missing parts -- are you guys familiar with the Miami Stu website? he has posted nearly all of the 405 parts microfiche plates; there are two different sets of 405 fiches, of course you want the pre-1993 (series 1) version as that's what we got in the US & Canada. these scans are the international version, so not all of the north american-specific parts are in them, but it's still extremely useful for un-muddling one's car, finding parts, etc. he also has the 205 parts fiches there, fwiw

here is the plate for the LHD car glove box

Andre thanks for that reminder- that diagram is helpful (as as all of your posts). I painted the glove box, but I'll definitely look into reflocking it once I'm happy with the installation. Looks like my glovebox is complete, but the metal brace (#13) is only screwed down to the dash 2/3 of the way. The corner that sags is the unsupported area. 

Joe- I had some similar stumbling in the upper rpm range that was cleared up with a new fuel filter along with injector cleaning. Not the fluid cleaner but ultrasonic bath and flow testing. It was noticeable only under load- normal driving/partial throttle the car was fine. The before/after flow testing didn't reveal a big difference. There was however an injector that didn't pass the leak test that did get fixed with cleaning. I've never seen an injector leak profusely- it's typically drops at a time, so i doubt that would impact a running engine. 

**Missed the point you made about difficulty starting- you might just have 2 injectors leaking. Could accumulate enough fuel overnight to give you a rough cold start the next day.

Edited by robotic
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OK guys another interesting update…

I came over to my garage this morning and fired up the car, and it started very nicely, went through what seemed like a normal cold start sequence, and also idled very nicely, so these are very encouraging things. Here's the confusing thing. I went to check the codes again because I still have a check engine light, but this is what happened. Bear in mind I was having my mother help me by releasing the ground and we may have not done it properly. The car never went through the one-two sequence to show test ready, but it kept giving me codes 91, 92, 93. These codes aren't even on the sheet. Any thoughts?

I should also add that the idle air control valve was making some clicking noises while doing this test sequence… I don't recall this happening before…

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  • 91MR2 changed the title to Joe's '91 405 Mi16 (and '90 SW and '92 Mi16)...

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