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Joe's '91 405 Mi16 (and '90 SW and '92 Mi16)...


91MR2

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Hi guys,

New member here, glad to be apart of this seemingly great forum (not many left these days...). I have been reading this forum for some time now, thought it was finally time to join and offer up a thread of my own, with my '91 Mi16 restoration//build. But first, a little about me...

My name is Joe and I live in Buffalo, NY. I have been an MR2 and Lotus guy (as well as overall import guy) my entire life, but have always had an affinity for french cars as well. However with how rare and difficult they are to come by in the US, I figured I probably wouldn't ever own one. But my parents had a Renault when I was growing up, and the curiosity and desire to own one never left me...

So, several years ago the itch got to me and I bought an '83 Renault Alliance (Motor Trend COTY edition) as well as an '87 GTA. Life was busy for me at the time though (building a business, and my father fell ill), and I never really drove them all that much,  so I decided to sell them to a true Renault enthusiast in the DC area. Truthfully, as much as I liked having them, after my father (who introduced me to them) passed away, it just wasn't the same. It was time to move them on...

And now, this leads me to my current Peugeot - a couple years ago, I was walking down the street of one of my properties that I was renovating to get some lunch and saw a white 405 Mi16 sitting outside one of my favorite restaurants. I couldn't believe my eyes. This is a car I'd always wanted, but again, never thought I'd have a chance to own, mostly due to the rarity around here. So, after getting over my initial shock, I then quickly scribbled a note and left it on the windshield letting the owner know that if he was interested in selling to please call me. Fortunately he did the next day, and after a few weeks, we worked out a deal and it was mine...

I'd love to tell you all that this is where my Peugeot journey began and it was all perfect after that, but that is not at all the case. Again, much like the Renaults, the Peugeot just sat in my garage for the next 2 years. My business had grown more (I own real estate), and my wife and I had a baby. None of my cars got near the use I was hoping for, and I didn't even know what I had in the Peugeot because I think in 2 years I drove it twice (most likely to get inspected). So again, I thought the best thing to do would be to sell it on to an enthusiast who could properly care for the car, much like I did with the Renaults...

But this is where the story gets good. No one wanted the car, or at least not for what I was willing to sell it for. My friend, who is also a mechanic and car nut, helped convince me to see what I had in this car before moving it on so quickly. So I did, and here we are. And what a blessing that turned out to be. I'm so glad I decided to keep it, because now as a father, I actually have a car that I can take my daughter in for rides. She's going to be 9 months old soon, and would be years away from going in any of my other cars, since they are all mid-engined 2 seaters...

So, a little about the car. It is an alpine white with burgundy '91, with 170K miles, in all (mostly) original condition. No paint work (except for the hood which had apparently faded, and then poorly matched for a respray...sigh...), no modifications (save for the radio...), overall it is a true survivor. It is mostly in great shape, body and interior are about as good as you could hope for in a 30 year old car, it runs and drives very nicely, albeit a little tired in some areas, as to be expected by the age and mileage. I'll give a write up of further plans shortly, but in the meantime, here are a few shots of the car upon initial purchase.

Great to be here, and look forward to meeting some of you in time...

Joe

PS - I've already gotten to know Savo a bit over the phone, and WOW, what a body of knowledge...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Awesome intro Joe and welcome to the forum!

It’s not that busy here, but there’s just a wealth of information and just some fantastic people that I’d genuinely call friends.  :)

Savo knows these 405’s like nobody else, and his builds always astound me - So just a great resource for 405 Mi-16 owners.  I’ve never owned one myself having only owned 504/505’s - but if I’m ever lucky enough to get one of Savo’s builds I’d count myself lucky!

Love your Mi and definitely looking forward to progress on it.

Rabin

 

 

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And here are some photos of my other cars and the main garage: a '91 Toyota MR2 (we have 2 of them), '95 Lotus Esprit S4, and '12 Lotus Evora S GP Edition. The red MR2 (not pictured and black/gold Evora are my mom's. At least the Peugeot has some good company to keep in the garage...

 

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20 minutes ago, Bean said:

Awesome intro Joe and welcome to the forum!

It’s not that busy here, but there’s just a wealth of information and just some fantastic people that I’d genuinely call friends.  :)

Savo knows these 405’s like nobody else, and his builds always astound me - So just a great resource for 405 Mi-16 owners.  I’ve never owned one myself having only owned 504/505’s - but if I’m ever lucky enough to get one of Savo’s builds I’d count myself lucky!

Love your Mi and definitely looking forward to progress on it.

Rabin

 

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Thank you Bean/Rabin, great to be here. Yes, Savo's threads amazed me, hence prompting me to join here. And super nice as well, he has been very helpful over the phone already, have yet to stump him with anything, ha... 

 

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So, here is the plan with this car. The goal is to make it a reliable daily driver for basically 6 months out of the year (may-october). The car has no rust and I intend on keeping it that way. Fortunately it spent the first half of it's life in the southwest, and has probably only seen 2 winters out here, obviously before I owned it. I am aiming to keep it stock, with just some minor updates where it makes sense. I've made the mistake of modding some cars too much, I need this one to be as user friendly as possible, while still being fun to drive...

As far as work to do, here goes. We started out with a full belt service, including timing and all accessory belts. All fluids (engine oil, gear oil , brake, clutch, coolant) will be done over the next 2 weeks, once the suspension overhaul is complete. The suspension was actually quite tight, however the driver's side inner tie rod had a little play so I purchased 2 new inner and 2 new outer tie rods, that way everything is new. Also found a set of Boge 1 inch lowering springs (ok, a modification already...), those will be going on the factory struts, as well as 2 new upper strut bearings and bellows, and a new set of lower ball joints to wrap that up. The rear suspension is tight and not needing anything at the moment, but I did just find a set of new KYB GR-2's that I am going to pick up to be used at a later date...

I should also add that before everything gets reassembled, both front wheel wells will be fully cleaned/degreased...

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I should add, before we started on any suspension work, I started an interior removal to do a deep clean, and fix all the rattles (love the interior design, but man is the dash arrangement a poor quality...). The whole entire interior, and actual dash and carpet will be removed again probably at the end of the driving season, but for now I want to get it back together so I can drive it. I hate doing work twice, but this does make the most sense at least for now to get back on the road. And it's a good thing I did this now, as all the dash parts that easily come off had not been put back on properly, most likely due to the goofy radio/amp set up that one of the prior owners had done. Either way, all good now...

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I had to repair a few plastic tabs, but no big deal, I used gorilla glue to re-attach, filed down, and then did a glue matrix around the entire area that had been compromised, that way the entire area has new strength. Very annoying and tedious, but well worth it in the long run...

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Hello Joe and welcome ?

As you can see this is great little Peugeot place and most of us here have ton of informations to keep these wonderful cars on the road.

You are making great progress on this car and what most of people don’t realize is that little money invested in them is all that’s it’s needed to keep them going.

Besides Interior these cars are great and easy to work on, I should add that front caliper slide pin boots (I see white ziptite in your picture) are available on Rockauto and extremely affordable.

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3 hours ago, SRDT said:

Nice cars, and you still have a bit of Renault (the gearbox) inside the Esprit.

Yes, I sure do, and despite the internet grumblings out there, it is a fine gearbox so long as it is not man-handled. It also doesn't take kindly to heavy modifications/power increases...

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13 hours ago, my3AWDgst said:

Hello Joe and welcome ?

As you can see this is great little Peugeot place and most of us here have ton of informations to keep these wonderful cars on the road.

You are making great progress on this car and what most of people don’t realize is that little money invested in them is all that’s it’s needed to keep them going.

Besides Interior these cars are great and easy to work on, I should add that front caliper slide pin boots (I see white ziptite in your picture) are available on Rockauto and extremely affordable.

Yes, Savo, thanks very much again. 

I have not even tackled the brakes yet, as the rotors are good all around and the pads are like new. Going to clean them down and then flush/bleed them. I'll make it a point to pick up those pin boots, thank you for that.

On a different note, regarding stock OEM struts/shocks. I've now been told by 3 avid Mi16 enthusiasts that they never really need to be replaced??? I've never heard of this in my life, most oem shocks/struts need replacing by the time you're at 100K miles, if not sooner. I'm sitting at 170K, and while the ride is still great, and none of the shocks seem worn/leaky, is it safe to assume this is correct that they last forever?

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Agree - Peugeot shocks are amazing and really only fail when they start leaking oil.  If they're clean and dry they're very hard to beat for OE comfort and control.  The caveat to that would be that the new springs you're fitting aren't a bunch stiffer.  If the spring rate is quite a bit higher than stock damping might not be suitable.  

Peugeot's are known for being softly sprung and stiffly damped though, so they'd have to be very sporty springs (IE Stiff) before the stock dampers didn't keep up.

Lovely garage too!  A very good friend of mine passed away in 2016 and he had an '89 Esprit the that was VERY tempting, sadly I quickly realized that I simply didn't fit it.  Ditto on the beautiful the MR2 - Always loved the second gen turbo cars, but have gone down several MR2 worm holes online looking at the V6 swapped cars.  Really like the idea of a 300HP V6 5sp in one, but I've never sat in one let alone driven it.  *Almost* jumped on a v6 swapped MR2 that was local and rough, but seller changed his mind.

  :)  Have you seen the Might Car Mods latest vids - Marty is doing one up.  

Rabin

 

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Ok, well that makes 6 people now, ha...

I guess I will continue to run with them, they seem fine and while I'd love to get a set of coilovers, I don't need to go that low, just a little lower than stock (the Boge springs are 1 inch lower) will suit me just fine...I think...

Rabin, thank you, the Esprit and MR2 are amazing cars, but yes, definitely need to be the right size. As far as V6 MR2's, I've been around a few of them, one of my best friends did a V6 in his several yeas ago, it is pretty awesome...

My friend/mechanic helping me with this build got the struts put back together last night. New springs, new strut bearings, new bellows, and OEM shocks. Hoping it is a nice combo...

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I've never driven a Mi-16 as they're exceptionally rare in Western Canada, but I've been told they drive like a bigger 205 GTi...  That's incredible to me...  They really are special cars.

One comment about the Esprit - I know functionally the rear wing might be be the best for visibility or some might not like the esthetics - But I LOVE them.  Such pretty cars.  Another good friend has a very special Europa with a twin cam 1.6 BDA out of a race car.  I'll try to get some pics of it - still not complete, but should be insane.  (Yet another car I don't fit, but I'll cram inside for a ride any day of the week!)

Rabin

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Rabin, I've yet to realize how good the Mi16's are myself, so far I have a lot more time in working on it than driving it...hopefully that doesn't go on for too much longer...

The rear wing on my Esprit (there were many varieties over the years) is one of my personal favorites. It's very exotic, especially for the time, and it does provide the best rearward visibility of any of the Esprits with a wing. If you ever make it to Buffalo, I'll take you for a ride...

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Buffalo!  Funny story - when I was younger and my wife and I took a bus from Toronto to Buffalo NY, then took a city bus from the bus depot to the airport where we were taking a flight to Richmond VA.  This was in the 90's and maybe saved us $200, but what we didn't realize or research at all was that we'd be travelling through what appeared to be a pretty rough part of town.  Like dudes standing around barrels if fire, in very ghetto neighborhoods.  

Got a lot of sideways looks with our luggage in tow, but was completely uneventful and has always made a great story thankfully with no bad outcomes from that little miscalculation.

The Esprit truly is gorgeous.  Gord's was black with gold wheels and pin stripes, and tan leather interior - Would have matched your Mom's Evora nicely.  :)  (Gord had a thing for JPS colours for his Lotus cars)

Rabin

 

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Yea, there were and still are some rough parts of Buffalo, but I love it here. It's a tough town, in more than one way, but it has a lot of charm and some real salt of the earth people...

And yes, the jps livery on a Lotus is hard to top...

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Welcome to the forum, i like you approchee to cars first service them then drive them care free. Two of my close friends recently bought imported cars and started driving them right away, with in few days one broke its cam belt and destroyed its engine, the other one destroyed its automatic transmission all of that could been prevented with a service. About driving Mi16, they drive very different than MR2's, the 405 it's a front engine FWD car but if you left off mid corner they can over steer like a RWD car at a decent speed so don't get scared. Also there power band is similar to Lotus engines, they make all the power in the higher end above 4--5000 rpm. One thing you can do now is to install grease fittings in the rear swing arms to grease them up the swing arm bearings before they fail. Its a weak point of any 405 except the 4x4 variants it's a big job when they need to be replaced. If you want to know anything about a 405 just ask there's a lot of knowledge on this forum.

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13 hours ago, Goce said:

Welcome to the forum, i like you approchee to cars first service them then drive them care free. Two of my close friends recently bought imported cars and started driving them right away, with in few days one broke its cam belt and destroyed its engine, the other one destroyed its automatic transmission all of that could been prevented with a service. About driving Mi16, they drive very different than MR2's, the 405 it's a front engine FWD car but if you left off mid corner they can over steer like a RWD car at a decent speed so don't get scared. Also there power band is similar to Lotus engines, they make all the power in the higher end above 4--5000 rpm. One thing you can do now is to install grease fittings in the rear swing arms to grease them up the swing arm bearings before they fail. Its a weak point of any 405 except the 4x4 variants it's a big job when they need to be replaced. If you want to know anything about a 405 just ask there's a lot of knowledge on this forum.

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Goce, thank you very much, and I agree with your sentiments. In order to have a chance of enjoyable ownership, the car needs a thorough going over to make sure all systems are operating properly before I just hop in and go. With the age and mileage of the car, it is safe to assume this will be a costly and long process, but that's ok, it will be worth it I am sure...

 

 

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Ok, got a ? for you all, as there is one issue that I need some direction with...

Since long before I owned the car, it has had a surging idle issue. It usually drops back down to normal if I blip the throttle, but it will again come and go. There is also a check engine light that comes and go, but not necessarily coinciding with the timing of the idle surge...

I am not sure how to check codes, but assume it is an OBD1 flash code type system, yes?

As far as guesses, I was thinking throttle position or maybe coolant temp. sensor?

Thoughts?

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You can use Bosch scanner for Motronic systems or get flashing code by jumping green connector (if I remember correctly) in engine compartment. To be more precise that fuse box is located right before passenger side strut tower, it’s a black square box. Idle surge can be caused by multiple things, I would strongly suggest reading fault codes then repair faulty item and then proceed to idle surge.

Most folks will tell you check this, check that, could be this, could be that...well that is no way to diagnose or repair any vehicles. This type of suggestions usually comes from key board tuners with usual some to none experience.

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  • 91MR2 changed the title to Joe's '91 405 Mi16 (and '90 SW and '92 Mi16)...

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