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1966 404 Coupé Injection Restoration


Mike T

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Original fittings are nonstandard with a 10mm head and what looks like UNF threads... but maybe it's not.

It could also be british whitworth threads or some kind of hybrid made with metric tooling but sticking close to either of the other two standards.

Metric brake booster, brake discs and clutch discs diameters can be strangely not rounded with Ø178 mm brake boosters or Ø305 mm brake discs, convert it to inches and it makes sense with 7.00787" and 12.0079".

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I have a few tips now: firstly, I have ordered the proper 10 mm with 24U from Serie04 fittings for the lines and I also think that I had the end of the tubes too far out of the block when making the flares, and that messed up the sealing. So now we're going to make a new set up and hope for a better result....

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Some members on Aussiefrogs supplied the following doctored photos to help the diagnosis. Also, it was correctly noted that the bleed screws themselves are super clean and those threads will be leaking with a vacuum bleeder. So I have some robust ideas to follow up on the next go-round.297199778_Flareproblems3.thumb.jpeg.47f155f36bd09dd49fa97f30c20fc6a9.jpeg511330706_flareproblems2.jpeg.13813a7c26d4dbabf63b334435d03f4a.jpeg1269621973_Flareproblems1.thumb.jpeg.943d604049a6d1da7d25fd036a6b4e23.jpeg

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The fittings if the fit and threaded in properly would make very quick work of straightening the flare out and seating it properly.  The look square on the pipe, but the pipe looks to have a slight bend which shouldn’t affect it.

The fittings not actually screwing in properly is still the red flag for me.  I’ve used vacuum bleeders before and the air leaking in from the threads doesn’t make sense unless the fluid was harder to pull through than air would be - which shouldn’t be the case.  Fluid should be easily drawn out with little to no restriction.  I’d get a thread die to ensure it cleans up the old fittings as well as it would the new ones.  Old threads appear to have a much sharper thread point where the new ones looked rolled / rounded more.

Long shot, but what about applying hydraulic pressure to the caliper bleed to push brake fluid up from caliper to reservoir to find the leak?  I use a similar technique when doing the clutch bleed on the 505 - use a line from the left front caliper bleed to the clutch slave bleed.  Pump brakes and it pushes clean fluid up through the clutch system (clutch reservoir line into a container so it doesn’t push old fluid into the brake reservoir).

Rabin

 

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I also over-squeezed the flaring tool when finishing the ends...plus the bleed screws are super clean so likely air was being sucked in there too. The new unions will come in soon and I can start over, much more carefully, this time. I've also ordered a new distributor junction (the bronze thing on the X-member) in case my over tightening has messed it up. The iron cylinder female union threads in the cylinders and brake hose unions should be fine.

Interesting idea about reversing the flow. Will consider that.

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  • 1 month later...

Yesterday I got the crankshaft back. The act of polishing it at the present 0.3 mm undersize was sufficient to eliminate the high burrs that scored the new bearings the other shop had put in. There are very small tiny divots in the journal surface left, but these will not be of significance going forward.

About the way the damage occurred, it's obvious that the other shop had inserted the pistons into the liners from above, whacking them in with a mallet and smacking the journal with the rod bolts. Rookie mistake, only they're not rookies. Factoid: 404 liners (probably many other Peugeots, and Renaults too) have a chamfer at the bases clearly intended to facilitate piston insertion from below. That's the correct way to do it.... Had it been done this way in the first place, the crank would have been fine.

I also neglected to get the first shop to install the new pilot bushing. So I had Chuck at Mid-Island Machine and Engine do that job. None of his standard pullers would get the old one out, but he thought the grease hydraulic-ing trick would get it out, but it didn't...so he threaded the bronze bush and then screwed a shaft in to pull it out. On the 404 at least, there is a grease seal at the end - Chuck said that American cars don't have that but it's a good idea.... 

Anyway.....

I was given a container of Clevite bearing shell grease to protect the crank bearings for initial assembly and startup. I was also advised to prime the oiling system with the engine in situ so the first start is not a brutal one. I'll rig up a manual pressure system through the oil pressure sending unit to do that.

Given the previous shop's inattention to detail, I'll also take the rocker system apart again to verify that the oil holes on the shafts are in the correct spots and put some assembly grease in there too.

I may being engine assembly soon but the braking system needs to be in working order before the engine goes back in.

Crank wrapped after washing:

307102929_Refinishedcrankshaftetc.thumb.jpeg.be0c01e261bb8787c541152748b55323.jpeg

Inside the shop:

1685774027_Mid-IslandMachine2.thumb.jpeg.18142b97e6fffcf483c1e65afd104e91.jpeg1070588338_Mid-IslandMachine1.thumb.jpeg.b7e0549413ff71f14e4b877b08fc1857.jpeg

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Also got more brake parts, the latest of which arrived today. It's the brake proportioning valve, also NOS like the other one that I bought 15 years ago, but initial indications are that this one will be usable. At the very least, I can try all my new brake lines in these fittings to make sure the ends fit properly.1374614589_brakevalve3.thumb.jpeg.8bb4ff64e3956f02e356638d5999bbf2.jpeg 

1600797660_BrakeLinesandfittingsrearcylinderkits.thumb.jpeg.1fc717658926caffb926c54fbb7529ae.jpeg

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Dean Hunter sent me two replacement shells for the two 0.3 rod bearings that were damaged in transit earlier this year, so now I have two complete sets. Hope to begin some work this coming weekend.

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Today I cleaned the super sticky black residue that the shop in Victoria had smeared all over the liners and liners seals at the lower and upper ends. This required acetone and a lot of toothbrush work plus a scriber to get the thicker bits off.

Once it was about 99% clean, I test fitted the liners without the seals to verify protrusion. All were more than 0 mm and less than 0.06 mm so it's good.

Also cleaned gasket residue off the oil pan mating surface and the timing cover mating surface.

1803339702_Block2.thumb.jpeg.c4d2ba80e3a86d7adcf2a7c7cc8f52df.jpeg

136720937_Block1.thumb.jpeg.4f669d69a2ca25e1f6c20bed2add7dd6.jpeg

Now I'll have to clean out the block because it's been open for a few months, though covered, and then start reassembly. I'll try inserting the pistons from the underside of the liners, which have a chamfer, once they too have been cleaned off (this is how it's done for some Renaults).

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  • 3 months later...

Nothing has happened since the summer began other than me getting some more parts for the brakes and a taper type ring compressor, which should arrive Wednesday.

The 10 mm UNF fittings I got from France had about 1/3 of the width of 45 degree taper on them compared to the originals. This meant that a test flare I made was mangled by the cylinder and the sealing would be crap. So.....I have resorted to re-using original fittings from 404s - plating them - because they're the only ones that I can say will work for sure. I have resisted cutting up the original brake lines because in the worst case scenario I could re-use them, knowing they seal well.

Coming soon: engine reassembly and brake line manufacturing phase 2.

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...and it turns out that the unions likely were the problem with my new brake lines.

The reason is that the Hydrovac 404s have short external brake lines connecting the two cylinders - these have bubble flares, which I dutifully made, but the fittings that I used the first time were the same over all lines, which in hindsight is not correct, because the bubble flares use about 1/3 the conical taper of the regular flares. So those lines would have been where the air was being sucked in.

My friend Tim Bowles in Victoria gave me a set of used fittings and this is when I finally clued into the problem. So I've removed and cleaned up 4 originals and will make sure to use them on the new lines I make up. Feeling optimistic about this now...

1947383870_Bubble(L)andRegularFlare(R).thumb.jpeg.57d714552be4a1ab9fe30d7bb3ec1071.jpeg

Left is the inter-cylinder fittings for the bubble flares and right is the other type of fitting.

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  • 1 month later...

Well, it took seven and a half weeks to get the shipment from Der Franzose/CiPeRe....

Screen Shot 2022-11-13 at 6.21.17 PM.png

 

Comparing the new fittings with extended noses I got for the front brake crossover lines with the short ones on the first set I made:

315417737_10160128725443934_5268023221197365642_n.jpeg

 

Today I made up another set of the crossover lines with the new fittings. Note the bubble flares.

315472771_10160131708548934_8041364197235228356_n.jpeg

 

Then installed them...

New Front lines installed 2.jpeg

 

New Front lines installed 3.jpeg

 

I still will remake some other lines too as I damaged a lot of the fitting heads overtightening them with the incorrect metric tool back in 2019!

 

On a related note, a search on "Luce Targa Carello" gave me a hit for this on eBay in Italy:

 

Carello2.jpegCarello1.jpeg

 

It's a 404C license plate light, NOS, but was listed as being for a Fiat 238 van (which may well be). Anyway for 70 EUR plus 25 for postage to Canada, it's soon to be my spare. Sadly, the seller has no more. But the Fiat 238 tip could be useful.

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I’m curious about why you’ve got points and condensers?  I understand originality and such, but the electronic versions are easily reverted to stock if you ever wanted to, but the performance advantage would be well worth it.  Something like the 1-2-3 set up even allows programmable ignition advance curves…

New brake unions look so similar, but does the female end must not thread enough in to seal the flare?  I wonder if you could file the last bit of threads to replicate the same profile?

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I've never had trouble with 404 ignition systems over the ten years they were daily drivers. The distributor is new and a programmable curve for any e-replacement - probably made in China (eww) - would be a minimum requirement as any aftermarket 404 e-distributor I've heard of is preset for carbureted cars - totally different centrifugal and vacuum advance, not to mention different distributor body.

I thought of the filing option on the fittings but that's super-crude to be fair, so I waited for the proper ones to come in.

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Points and condensers work great when fresh, but by their design they start deteriorating immediately with use and need to be cleaned and/or adjusted fairly regularly.

I’ve upgraded both the PRV V6’s as well as XN1’s with stock electronic ignitions, as well as used a Crane electronic conversion kit for a 280SE I6 Mercedes and the difference in running quality was immediate and very worthwhile every time.  I personally would never run pointe again in anything.

Every aftermarket one I’ve seen like Pertronix or Crane was an insert into then original housing and it uses the stock advance curve.  The 1-2-3 I’ve only read about after a buddy used it on his Volvo Amazon.

As for filing the unions - how you do it is the only thing that could be done crudely - filing is just like any other machining operation and if done well would be every bit as good as a new union.  Still good you were able to source them and make new lines.  I’d have done it just because of the new ones have no tool marks on the hex…  :)

 

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A 1960s car has so many anachronisms that once you start, where do you stop? If you REALLY want to know, I do have an electronic points substitute for the stock distributor ready to use but I simply do not intend to use it until points become unavailable or for some reason, after 160K km of using points, condenser etc on a 404 DD with NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER, they suddenly become a problem. I have read that some of the cheap Chinese points and condensers that flood the market today crap out regularly, but the ones I have are made by Bougicord/Ducellier in France, just like the originals, and they typically had service lives of 30,000 km.

One could also argue that the Kugelfischer injection is not optimal, so should be replaced by a Megasquirt, and so on and so on....4 drum brakes? Oh horror! No airbag, etc.....nah, it's an old car, let it be.

It truly was a no brainer to buy new unions so let's leave it at that, shall we?

 

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No need to be an ass Mike - I’m not arguing with you on anything you realize right?   I know context and tone are lost in text, but making alternative suggestions or voicing a difference of opinion is still just friendly forum chat.

It’s a gorgeous build and you have your reasons, I was merely offering suggestions and making comments which is kinda the point of the forum…

 

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New points made out of crap is often the main problem and for condensers it's better to hide a modern electronic component inside the old housing than to trust cheap new ones.

In France a good trick back in the days was to go to the scrapyard and find a Renault to take the "cartier" ignition box they used. At the time when Peugeot had switched to electronic ignition modules Renault was still using points to trigger the cartier module. Not the best solution for your new Renault but pretty convenient for an older car.

As for programmable distributors it's not exactly cheap and not all distributors are avaible so they are DIY options using an arduino. It's cheap, effective and seems reliable ; as a bonus the arduino can keep idle speed stable by adjusting timing on the fly.

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Cartier-03.jpg.f052c985f06f0fa4a81389d5c

20210428_165349_resized.jpg.d5c9c0ef071020210428_164704_resized.jpg.270c744a21a0

Basically the points will work as usual, it's just that there is no more high voltage passing them as the box is taking care of that.

If the box fail you can simply bypass it with a short wire, older models had a bypass connector under the CARTIER cover.

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Ordered an oil pressure sending unit for the Jaeger sports instrument panel - should arrive soon. It's a Spanish-made FAE unit - the original Jaegers being nearly impossible to find. This period accessory instrument panel will go into the car after it's on the road again and functioning well.

image.png.4d00e3dd2e4d68c24a0896c1b727b27c.png

The panel, as a refresher:

1095643314_JaegerPanel.thumb.jpg.3dedaa5b4972fcaf27a6e4cfca84dcfb.jpg

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