The great 4G63 debate

[my3AWDgst]

I'll be swapping to Auto my self next year,I doubt it's less money as you have to purchase everything twice more as it's got four more cylinders.

Have you ever drove a 10 second or faster car at the track at the straight line? It's a hand full and if it was that easy everyone would do it...

On the end 4g63 has done it and can back it up but you keep trying to proof something with out anything to back up your story...I would never figured you would be just another key board tuner...

[Bean]

Nope - no 10 second cars, only 10 second motorbikes...  As mentioned I have never had interest in 1/4 mile racing cars, but I've been on bikes capable of 10s quarters.  (I only managed low 11s since track temp was really cold - couldn't hook up well at all.)

Have you ever run a stage rally car at night on gravel?  I can assure you that is much more of a handful than keeping a car in a straight line on pavement.  Not doubting quick 1/4  wouldn't be hairy - but you only have to do it for less than 10 seconds and I'm quite confident my years of AWD/RWD/FWD car control in Rally has me well equipped to handle a 1/4 run in any car.

V8:  Have you seen how cheap stuff is for a V8? They have a HUGE supporting aftermarket that's likely 100x bigger than the 4 cylinder market.  Just watched enginemasters where they used ported heads on a stock 5.7 Hemi and it made 650HP with a Paxton supercharger at 10psi.  Big precison turbo with forged pistons and you'd make gobs more...  Transmissions are stout, as are diffs with minimal mods.

You also keep asking for proof for something I've already admitted doesn't currently exist.  I simply stated that with enough money spent ANY engine could rival the 4G63T - I shouldn't need to prove that statement since it common sense. 

And considering I'm the only one in this debate that's worked as a mechanic on an international racing team at an event with world wide recognition - I'd say even hinting that I was a keyboard tuner would make you look aweful silly.

Rabin

[my3AWDgst]

From David Buschur for Rabin ;-)

[Bean]

Excellent vid that perfectly explains my position Savo!  So much after market money has been spent on this motor that the only thing left is the crank which is still balanced, turned and polished.  Did some research and confirmed HUGE money has been spent on figuring out rods, and pistons and everything else this motor needs to make big HP.

https://secure.buschurracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25_111&products_id=40&osCsid=1f60bc6a44364ecddc7c06a635f968ad

Buschur Stage 3 bottom end has:

• Bearings (Rod, Main and Thrust)
• Balanced, turned & polished Crank shaft
• Buschur Racing Balance Shaft Eliminator kit
• ARP Fasteners *does not include head studs)
• BR Spec Connecting Rods
• BR Spec Forged Pistons

From David Bushur's own article:  http://highboostforum.com/forum/showthread.php/27375-Choosing-the-right-Buschur-Racing-engine-for-your-build

"We have been building 4G63 engines for over 20 years. In this time we've broken a lot of parts. When we see a part break we look at the reason it broke. From there if we determine it is a weakness in the part the part is re-designed. Some parts are sub-standard to begin with, used once and it is then determined the manufacturer has their head up their ass and that part is never used again. We have been through multiple crank shaft manufacturers over the years. We've tried many different piston and rod manufacturers. The companies that were willing to improve their product and develop custom parts for us is who we have stuck with. This has led to parts that are stronger and lighter than most any you can find elsewhere. Our shortblocks are offered "one way", the strongest and most proven way. You can buy an engine from us for your 400 whp project and know that next year when you decide 800+ whp is what you want the shortblock doesn't need to be touched!"

"BR 2.0, This engine has proven itself so many times. It's gone as quick as 7.3's and as fast as 197 mph in the 1/4 mile. We offer this engine with both standard steel rods and optional aluminum rods. At power levels over 700 whp the 4G63 block has been known to split the cylinder walls. This can be solved by hardblocking the engine but then limits the use and street miles you can put on the engine. RPM limits have been pushed to over 10,000 rpm with this engine."

Buschur Racing Evo 8/9 Stage 3 Shortblock (2.0)[EVO-10800]                 $3,100.00

PLEASE NOTE: ***GOOD CORES ARE REQUIRED*** Additional CORE CHARGE of $1813 (price includes block, oil squirters and oil squirter bolts ONLY! If a crank can not be supplied the crank core fee if an additional $725. If the cores are not at our facility before your engine is ready to ship the core fee's will be in effect.

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With enough money and R&D behind it, the 4G63 does make great power and it is possible for it to be reliable - but you have to spend a crap ton of money even after all this R&D effort has been expended.  Short block, head porting, cams, not to mention the aftermarket header and turbo, and the engine management system to make all that power.  Get all done, and $10 -15K later you have a peaky undriveable car that's pretty much only good on a drag strip.  (unless you start swapping turbos - but in that case you don't have your 700HP anymore either.)

Rabin

 

 

 

 

[my3AWDgst]

What are you talking about are you lost? 

You can go with me to Pick N Pull and we can get engine for $175 and get a trubo out a Dodge truck (hx35) for $75 and used set of ARP studs and you will make reliable 500 AWHP and that's why 4g63 is so great. 

You can always make engines better by fully building them but even with forged internals we still keep factory head,block,crank,valve cover,OIL PUMPS,timing components,valves and so on.With just cams,forged pistons,ARP head studs and rods you can easily make 1000 AWHP. No need for all nonsense listed on Dave's website especially filled block options. I've seen only a hand full cracked cylinder walls online and they all have been bored 30 over.

That engine in that video has only forged rods,pistons and ARP bolts,everything else is OEM FACTORY PARTS. 4g63 FORCE!!!

You keep saying that you can make any 4 cylinder as good as 4g63 but your statement is incorrect as 4g63 is just beefy from factory  especially in crankshaft rod and main journals where it matters at most especially when you are running 76mm plus turbos at 50 PSI.

People have made over 1300AWHP on FACTORY ECU,HARNESS AND SENSORS on stock block,stock crank,stock head,stock oil pump,stock coils,stock valve cover,stock water pump and so on... 4g63 FORCE!!!!

You tube is full of stock engine,turbo records some of them are in 9's

[Bean]

Buschur vid was YOUR example - not mine.  In the vid he says the rods are Crower rods.

I'm also not a 4G63T Fan boy so why would I know the ghetto recipe for the engine build?  What's the rest of the ghetto recipe to get the tranny, center diff, and driveline to live?  Does it live for long?  How many spares do you have of each component?

As for the N9TE - you know even less about that motor than I know about the 4G63T.  It also has a beefy cast iron block, massive main bearings, a forged crank and it looks stout as fuck.  Problem which you keep missing in this entire discussion is it has never had a deep enthusiast base, so no one has ever pushed the limits.  My pockets are not deep enough to do it myself, but I am smart enough to look at the stock design to know it has huge potential.

I also know that when August had his N9TE head mildly ported and flowed the shop said it could easily support 500HP flow on stock valves.  I know that's one guy, one shop, and no documentation - but it makes my point that just because know one does a hot rod N9TE doesn't mean the engine doesn't have potential.

And again - A high HP small displacement motor is complete CRAP for anything other than drag racing.  What's that dyno read at 4000 rpm?  126 HP?  It'd be such a crappy car to drive anywhere except the drag track.

Rabin

[Goce]

I have to agree with that that the eclipses and other cars on that platform did not drive particular good, i've briefly( 2 days) owned a galant vr4, imported from the us, it was in bad shape and almost stock i think a chip and a t28 turbo upgrade, the car will go from understeer and oversteer on its own with no inputs from the driver, as a straight line drag machine i really goes, if you keep it in boost, but with that unpredictable steering is realy not that good to drive and it does not have the refinement and comforts to compare, that car had a rod knock, and after adding up the parts to repair to just the engine was higher than the car, so i just sold it, about a month later that car got crash in to a bridge, driver survived.

[my3AWDgst]

My powder coater dyno run few days ago. Stock 1989 block with unknown milage. Head is stock as well with MHG,ARP studs,Kiggly valve springs and 280 cams.

[muddywaters]

On 10/15/2016 at 9:46 AM, my3AWDgst said:

You can go with me to Pick N Pull and we can get engine for $175 and get a trubo out a Dodge truck (hx35) for $75 and used set of ARP studs and you will make reliable 500 AWHP and that's why 4g63 is so great. 

Puhh, do you think so? I have one in my EVO IX and I can say there are more modifications necessaray to build an engine that lasts longer than 1/4 mile.....

[Bean]

Dang - I didn't respond to Sava's last post... 

Poor guy was making 100HP at ~4250 RPM, and only has a 1500 RPM (6000 - 7500 RPM) of usable power band.  Decent drag race car, but pretty much useless in every other aspect. 

I had to re-read this little debate, so much fun poking Savo.  They really are great motors, I just think ANY big horsepower 4 banger is not very impressive because invariably they all become super peaky undriveable motors.  I'm WAY more impressed with the 300 - 400HP motors that have huge power bands and are still efficient - They just don't get valued that much on the internets.  Drove a Mercedes GLA 45 AMG with 375 HP and was astounded how much usable power it had - THAT was an impressive 4 banger.

Rabin

[muddywaters]

That's right. You can get about 380HP with 500NM of torque (sorry for metrical sizes...) with some easy mods like walbro 255, 3'' exhaust system and a good mapping. The EVO IX stock turbo is not too bad. Driving this is a lot of fun. If you want more power you will have to reinforce rods, change the transmission to 5 speed, clutch and so on. Most of the guys I know prefer a not so big turbo like FP green, Ross or Owen. Then you can get between 450 to 500HP but with a lot of torque and, like Rabin said with a wider power band starting at 3000RPM. Instead of adding more power to the motor it makes more sense to improve suspension and brakes to get a even better overall handling.