xd2 and xd2s difference's

[edian727]

any major differences in these engine's? i know one is turbo9 and the other is not. also the turbo motor has a bosch VE, will the xd2 has a rotodiesel pump. is here oil squirters on either? or maybe diffent cam lifts, or different comp ratio? maybe better rods on the turbo engine? I've got a td04l-14t-6 and a old t4 that im gonna compound as well as modding the VE pump. it seems common to put bigger cams in the n/a engines, and to use piston squirters on turbo engine's(thats what mercedes does, and iirc vw too), but im not sure on these peugeot engines. i also have a 2.1l out of a 74 that the fuel or injectin pump is out on, i wouldnt think but if its a bigger cam that would be nice. my goal is about 200 hp, i think thats about 35psi. i do have a intercooler for each stage also.

[Bean]

Sorry Edian,  I can't be of much help with the specifics like if they have oil squirters or cam specs...

I'm pretty sure the XD2S has higher compression than the XD2, and I've read the turbo has a better bottom end - I just don't know specifics. 

The compound turbo idea is neat, but I think the turbos you're using are way too big for only 200 HP.  200 HP is a great goal, but that 14T could easily be the big turbo to get you the 200HP...  No idea if the stock motor can handle those power levels, but the hurdle will be what kind of RPM you're thinking of turning. 

What kind of pump mods are you thinking of?  Do you have a VW IDI background at all?

Rabin

 

[edian727]

I'll probably measure cam off the pushrod movement. I also have some rebuilt Mercedes injectors set at 150 or something bar pop pressures.

as far as VE mods I've read up on VE's and will keep reading but I'd like to use a big head and rotor like a 4bt pump, and maybe the advance from a vw pump. I know I want to extend the range of the AFC. I'd like full fuel longer like 4200 or so but I won't rev past five, I know the engine will, but I'd like it to live.

I know it's a little big, I do have a 12t but the exhaust housing is really badly cracked. I'd like some head room, my pump mods reflect that too. that t4 is off a banks 6.9 turbo kit, they dynod around 250 with no wastegate. I don't plan to gate it unless my egts get to high. First one I'll use the factory and a 38mm external gate.

Not much background in vw, my gf has a TDI but we leave it stock. Mostly Mercedes. 

[Bean]

Why don't you swap the 14T exhaust housing onto the 12T?  Exhaust housings should be the same, the compressor side is usually the difference.  (At least in the turbo Volvo world).  

The T4 sounds WAY to big as it's coming off a motor literally 3 times bigger (assuming it was a single turbo set up?)

I've got a Volvo TD04-13G I was thinking of playing with, or trying the Garrett T3 off the 2.2L gas turbo since it uses a .36 AR  housing and makes ~160HP stock.  Your peak power goal is higher than mine - I'm shooting for fast spool and 160HP out of my 2.5L XD3T motors.

How big are the plungers in the 4BT? 12mm?  My automatic should have 10mm, the manual 9mm.  From searching the VW forums, even the 9mm flows plenty for my goals...

Btw - have you ever done a compound turbo set up before?  Ever looked at propane injection to help spool?

Rabin

[SRDT]

Since the 82 model year XD2 and XD2S shared parts like rods. You need to dig those part numbers out of servicebox:

http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com/classic/AIDE/8505/03_505.html?id=sous_menu0|0_9

[edian727]

to be honest id like 250-300, but im starting at 200 and see how the trans will handle it. i have read the 10-5 is only good to 300nm, or 220ish ft-lbs, and at 200hp im over that. now i dont drop the clutch very much if at all, and im going to use redline mt-90 in it, so i'll see how it survives and turn it up from there. also in the mercedes world low end torque is what kills stock rods, so id like the big turbo to come in slow and late, around 2200 is my hope. that t4 will only flow about 40lb/min, at 250 hp in the 6.9 at 3200 and 15 psi its at ~32 lb/min, 250 hp in the 2.3 with 50 or so psi at 4200 is ~31.5 lb/min. of course the t4 cant handle the pressure ratio on its own. thats my real goal but if the trans doesnt hold up to more then 200hp i'll probaly save for a hx-30 with a 7cm housing, that'll spool nice support the PR for 35 psi, and is within the proper flow rates, and not have to be compound. and it is my first time with compound's and im willing to go through and make changes and results will warrant, or advice from someone warrants.

SRDT, thank you for the link, the xd2 is in a 79 504 wagon, the xd2s is out of a 82 505.

another problem i've run into is flywheel. the xd2s has a 8-bolt pattern, i have a 10-5 out of a 81 also with a xd2s and i pulled the flywheel but it is 6-bolt. i dont know if the xd2 in the 79 is 6 or 8, nor if the 2.1l in the 74 is 6 or 8 as the engine's and trans are still in the cars. i can hope. otherwise ill have to track down a 8-bolt flywheel or do some crank swapping.

[Bean]

I've just done a whack more turbo research and I'm curious if you have any more updates on your compounded turbo set up?  Now that I actually know what compounding is - and I've done way more TD04 research I'm thinking your td04-14T-6 would be too big for the high pressure turbo so I'm curious if you had built and tested it.  If I can find a T25 flanged TD04-13T-5 off a Saab I may give that a try on my XD3T (or make a 13T out of a Saab 15T - the key is the 5cm^2 housing).  There's a TD04-13T-4cm used as well - but that might be a bit too small for both our goals.

I've also been chatting with a CDN supplier of Holset turbo's because I was looking at the new he211w with 5cm housing, or the he221 with the 5.5cm housing.  Holset also has come out with a he200vg variable geometry turbo which he has in stock, and I contacted Steed Dolan who builds the Banshee II VGT controller that should be able to run the new Holset...  Canadian supplier is called Eurotrash...  I took that as a sign from Fernando - so I'm giving the idea of forging new ground with this new VGT Holset turbo - but with the CDN dollar so low it'd be a $2100ish dollar touch...  

Smarter move would be to do a single wastegated turbo set up like the he211w w/5cm^2 housing as that is only around $730 after exchange.  If I can find a Saab TD04 5cm^2 exhaust housing I could make TD04-13T-5 with a 11 blade billet wheel that would pretty much be the same as the new Holset.

Course after speaking with Steed for over 2 hours, and then reading up on compound turbos...  Well they're just too neat not to ignore, but that can be for another day.  Right now I really want to figure out the best way to optimize my build injection pump and injectors as I'm pretty sure the stock T0302 isn't going to cut it.

Rabin

[Goce]

The XD2s and XD3T seam to be used in many cars and 4x4 from the 70s and 80s, like the ford sierra, scorpio granada and land rovers, those cars were used to be popular for modifications, i know a land rover specialist that modify those engines by bolting a mercedes 320 cdi turbo charger using a 90 degree elbow to the stock manifold, and changing the wastegate and injectors, i've been to mud events where he was redlining the engine entire day without any failure and it was the only 4x4 running at the end of the day, so you may try using the 320 cdi turbocharger if you have the space.

[edian727]

I've been doing some research, and some goal changing. I've realised that if i want to make 200 and see if i can get it to 250-300 that im gonna end up breaking the gearbox, and probably finding the limits of the factory bolts at least. so im gonna go straight for 300 hp, and fit a jeep or chevy trans(ax-15 or nv3550), and fire-ring the head, arp bolts for the head and the bottom end. im also gonna look and see if i can find a aftermarket rod that'll fit and not kill me on price. i do have a n/a xd2 im gonna run in the car till i get the engine built.

now as far as turbo's go, id really like to run the 12t with the saab 5cm housing and a hx30 and a extra gate around the saab turbo. the great things about the td04 is there so much interhcangability so i can change the intake side without to much problem, plus i see them at the wrecking yard all the time. the problem with the saab turbine housing is theres only 2 choices, a 5 and 6, and both are for the l turbine. and volvo only offers a 6cm in the l housing, but they offer the hl turbine and 6, 7 and 8 cm housing for that turbine. im doubting my first try is going to be the best system so im trying to build in some interchangeability. the hx30 is a t3 flange so easy change there. my t4 is a v-trim and way bigger then i thought. even if i cant get a hx30, a hy40 or hx35 would be better then the t4. I love that holset partnered with MHI for there smaller turbo's :). the subaru wrx used a td04l-13t-6, with a oddball compressor that had a wider map then most 13t's. might be something worth looking at.

I cant even consider the realm of vgt unless im gonna control it with a wastegate acuator and theres some major issues doing it that way. I'd love to see one, and you'll never get the response out of a wg turbo as the vgt.

Goce, ive heard the 320cdi turbo is a great turbo. i came from the merc diesel scene and if you wanted a good upgrade on the om606 this was a good choice.

[edian727]

I'm also gonna do a lot of head work and look into cam grinding or maybe a rocker arm ratio change. this will end up taking a few years before its gonna even start to look like a complete engine. BTW bean i love your input, thank you.

[Bean]

Do you guys know what turbo the 320 CDI runs?  I googled it and see a VNT turbo as well but maybe that's too new?  Interesting thing is that the Banshee controller can run any VNT/VGT turbo not just the Holset - so even the new VNT ones could be used.  According to Steed - the Garrett VNT is likely the better performance turbo, but the Holset is likely the more robust and the best for towing.  

Since I'm not going for all out performance, and I want to tow - the Holset would still be a great choice for me.  Get the flange changed to a T25, install a 0-30 psi pressure sensor, and a normally open switch on the accelerator to tell the Banshee when it's on the throttle stop is all that's really needed.  

Right now I'm figuring out the total cost to run the Holset he200vg with the Banshee and if I can convince my wife that this is $2000 well spent then things will get a lot more interesting.

The wildcard in all this is the thought of running compound turbos. Never gave it much thought until I actually knew the theory and the practice behind it, but it makes a lot of sense.  Two ways I can see doing it:

1. Keep the stock T0302, for super fast spool, but stick the bigger low pressure turbo in front like my T3/T4 hybrid turbo.  Will need to look at how restrictive the T0302 turbo would be with a wide open wastegate.  Or I could run the .36 AR T3 turbo off the 505 Turbo (gas) as the high pressure turbo...
2. Do the TD04-13T-5cm^2 high pressure turbo, with another Volvo TD04HL-19T-7cm^2 low pressure turbo...  I'd have to build the first one out of my 13T compressor wheel and cover, but I have the 19T left over from my 00' V70R.  (Again would have to gauge how well the high pressure housing would flow.)  If the Saab turbo comes in a 12T with the 5cm housing I'd run it as is.

If the high pressure exhaust housing didn't flow well, you'd need to run a high pressure turbo with huge 44mm+ external wastegate so that it could flow exhaust to the low pressure turbo as efficiently as possible.  That should keep drive pressure and EGT's down if it's done right.

I really shouldn't be thinking VNT/VGT's or compound turbo's - but it they sure are neat.

Rabin

 

[Goce]

This is my 320 cdi turbocharger, i've placed tape measure if you need the size, as for the price i don't know, my was nearly free, you may get one second hand or from a pull a part place they are pretty cheap.

[Bean]

So a VNT without the controller?  Looks huge - but then the tape measure shows it to be pretty small.  

Flanges and the orientation would be very hard to work around without major mods.

Rabin

[Goce]

Yes is a variable vane turbo, this one is new so the electric actuator is not mounted, you can see the brackets in the first picture, as for mounting it is like any thing, looks hard till you try it, the guy i know used a cast iron 90 degree elbow and simply drill two sets of bolt holes and bolted right up, it has a oil feed from the bottom and form the top, i'm keeping this one for a special project, to be used in a Compound Turbo setup as it will package nicely.

[Bean]

Damn.  A compounded set up with the VNT/VGT as the high pressure turbo just clicked...  That would make a fantastic big power set up.

I bought a diesel compression tester to evaluate which one of my XD3T's I should use in my wagon.  2nd engine will go on a stand while I collect parts to rebuild it as a future spare.

Make sure to start a build thread when you start your motor work Edian - I'll be watching closely for when I rebuild my XD3T. 

Rabin

[Goce]

Rabin, If your engines have not run in couple of weeks or months, i would suggest connect a radiator and take them thru 7 heat cycles, to free up the piston rings and to have realistic compression numbers on a hot engine, i've been burnt with junkyard engines that been sitting for months.

[Bean]

Thanks Goce - both are currently in running/driving cars so I'll make sure to drive them sufficiently in order to get the best numbers possible.  (I probably would have just done them after driving them into garage had you not mentioned it.)

I also just picked up some Lubroly Diesel Purge so I'll likely do that as well prior to testing them.

Rabin

 

[edian727]

i think your gonna have some major turbine choke issue trying to run the td04l and td04hl as a compound, same with 2 t3's. besides you don't want to use that stock t3, flows like crap, and its horrible efficiency range. when your figuring for your lp turbo your turbine size needs to be big enough to handle the motor plus the full boost for the hp turbo. holset ran the hx60 over the hx40(those are pretty far apart) and in my research the tdi guys says that the gt1749 goes well with a hx35 on top. and the gt1749 is a little smaller then the td04. of course i think it will matter what kinda of boost you want too, lower boost and the smaller turbine you'll want. honestly for a low boost application i think a mid to larger size td05h(like a 16g with 8 or 10cm housing) would be great and wouldn't choke over a td04l. also Ive seen t4's over t3's, they used the t4 turbine. there are 4 t4 turbine's, and most trucks use the p or t trim turbine that are huge, and paired with the t04b's, the t04e's seem to be paired with the smaller turbines and would probably be a good choice over a t3, but still the stock turbo for my xd2s is not a very good one.

I've been using garrets boost advisor to get a general idea of what my flow needs to be and im approaching a pr of 6(5 bar of boost, 70 psi) to achieve that 300 hp. of course my ve is more then it really is but that what head work is for and to be honest i just don't think it'll make it much over 200 with out head work. so that's a pr of 2.5 on each turbo. 1.5 bar of boost on the first one, that's approaching the airflow of a 5.7l n/a engine. seems like a hx35 would go great on top of that. to be honest im probably gonna try a hx35 or hy40 first as they are super common and a few hundred bucks at most around here. and well hx30's are not common or cheap.

Im going to start the tear down pretty soon and ill start a build thread then. I've got a xd90 also im gonna tear down just for curiosity sake, plus im gonna use the xd90 oil pan, and im gonna measure the cam. ill take every little bit i can take.

[edian727]

also that 320cdi turbo is a gt20??v. im not sure about the turbine size, but these things are supposed to flow great. to bad the new good garrett stuff tends to be so expensive. thats why i love holset, reasonable effeciency, high pr capable, common and cheap. plus they are desired so selling isnt hard either.

[edian727]

so i began tearing down the xd90 that came out of the car. aluminum head, and it appears the turbo engine is too. the xd2 out of the 79 wagon has a iron head. really strange. also the xd90 has a 2-piece oil pan, aluminum upper and a stamped steel lower. both the xd2 have a 1 piece stamped steel pan. gonna end up using the xd90 pan on the turbo engine, of course if it fits. i assume but that doesn't guarantee anything. gonna start tearing the xd90 down the rest of the way(heads off ip is off and trash...) and get the turbo engine on a stand to start its tear down. ill start a build thread shortly after. i will post lots of pics too.

Unfortunately there is not a lot of room on the exhaust ports to open up, head bolts are pretty close on both sides, coolant jacket on the bottom, some room on top but im a little worried about the thickness around the valve seat too. gonna practice on the xd90 head, but hopefully i wont break through. the center intake port also has some inconvience from head bolts. im gonna open it up as much as possible and probably just clean up the back and front intake ports. they are already huge compared to the center anyway.

also anyone know how to remove the prechamber? this is something im disappointment in. was mercedes the only one who used multi hole prechambers? the peugeots are just like the chevy 6.2's and i think its a bit inefficient. this is what the merc ones look like, that darker tip actually sticks into the combustion chamber. probably dreaming that peugeot went to this at some point in time.....

 

[Bean]

I would triple check that head being cast iron - I only heard a rumour that there was a cast iron head XD2 for marine engines - this would be the hot ticket for a high boost performance diesel build as you would have way better strength and even heat expansion and contraction with block.

No idea about the pre-chambers - my only experience is with Peugeot diesels, but I assumed they were the same as the VW IDI engines since they share so much in common already.

Rabin

[edian727]

the wagon head is defiantly cast iron, no doubt about it. it may have been replaced in its life though. i imagine if the marine engines were cast iron heads i bet the equipment that used it had the iron heads too. if so im betting it was a replacement engine from a piece of equipment. its actually more common here to find equipment with a peugeot diesel then a peugeot here. plus it sat for at least 10 years so it would've been done in the 80's or 90's. aslo i think the wagon came from tacoma so it may be a marine egnine too. still think its weird. i've never seen a prechamber on vw to be honest. my gf has a tdi and thats my total experience in vw lol. well and my injectors are vw housing with merc nozzles, but i puled them out of a merc so....