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'87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System


wadehilts

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Thanks Stewart,

I made a rather large discovery yesterday. I am a fool. I have been driving my car with the timing retarded by 10 degrees. AKA I was idling at TDC not 10 degrees BTDC.

A previous owner had rebuilt the engine and never set the timing right. I checked it briefly and wasn't thinking. The crank pulley mark lined up with the TDC tick mark, not 10 degrees BTDC. What a fool I was! The car runs WAY better now. I guess the problem was that I have never driven a 505 with a ZDJL in it, so I never knew what to expect out of the vehicle to begin with. The car has much more responsiveness and drives much smoother. I believe I have more tuning to do as far as idle stuff goes.

For ignition, an Aussie friend of mine, Rob, has given me permission to share a few of his devices that he has fabricated for his 505. He is setting up a missing tooth trigger on his crank. I plan to follow this route, as it will be better than pulling from the dizzy.

 

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I bet it goes a lot better now Wade! Please don't call yourself silly. You found a problem which existed and can now make the best out of it! Try setting static at 12 with 22 to 24 deg at 2000 without vac advance connected. That is pretty close to good. Reconnect the advance hose and see how the mixture responds , it should sparkle well for you. I'll dig out the factory and my own curves and see if we can get started with even more fun!

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Stewart, 

I am having an issue where my idle collapses, even with my PID control of the PWM valve fighting it. The idle collapses quickly once the rpms drop to ~650. This can be achieved by putting a load on the engine (power steering) at idle. What I've noticed in my log files is that the rpms drop from 650 to 65 rpms and float around there for a while. Since I'm getting my ignition trigger from the dizzy reluctor, I'm wondering if my dizzy pickup is failing to read a signal at low rpms. Perhaps my Voltage drop from the alternator is affecting it. I was just wondering if you have observed any classic failure modes of a worn dizzy pickup.

Wade

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Update!

I fixed the problem. My noise filtering in Megasquirt has been affecting my idle when the RPMs drop.

Should have realized that earlier, but the noise filter menu is a little confusing.

Now I have a ROCK solid idle, augmented by the kick-ass PWM closed loop idle control. I can easily hold an idle at 500 rpm (rough, but stable) when the power steering yanks the a load on the engine. The closed loop PID control does the rest.

I have now defeated the Bosch Jetronic in all respects.

Time to paint the 404 so I can have a glorious DD while the 505 gets torn apart for a trigger wheel install.

Wade

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Awesome work Wade!

As for your trigger wheel - Have you thought of having the 36-1 pattern milled into an edge of the stock pulley?  V-belt would be fine if one side of the v-groove was milled into the trigger wheel.  Personally I'd try to mount the inductive pick up in a more protected spot up front.

I spent a lot of time with how to do my 60-2 set up for VEMS, and I keep coming back to getting the flywheel machined to 60-2, and mounting the pick up into the bellhousing.

Rabin

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Hi Rabin,

I haven't considered that idea. I'd imagine that would work pretty well, assuming the teeth are thick enough for the hall sensor. I guess it's rather an unknown, so I have been leaning towards buying a trigger wheel from DIYAutotune. Also, I have the luxury of my friend Rob being a voluntary guinea pig with the setup shown above in the pictures. He is also a little wary of the setup as it gets pretty busy around all the belts and moving parts. 

However, he is taking the process very slowly. He's been driving with the trigger wheel and sensor mounted for a few weeks, periodically checking the drift/eccentricity or any misalignment that may occur during regular operation. So far he has not reported anything bad happening. He also plans to maintain his dizzy setup as a backup, using a set of plugs and sockets that will allow a quick switchover of tach signal should the unthinkable happen.

If his plan succeeds, I plan to follow it, as it is a known in a sea of variables. I am teetering between using my coil and dizzy or moving to wasted spark and eliminating the dizzy. Lately I've been drifting away from wasted spark as it is pretty pointless on the ZDJL which doesn't like to rev much past the high 5000s. 

At any rate, I have some time to sit on this. I'll begin reporting my fuel economy as soon as I get my next fill-up. I can't quantify the power gain, but it is certainly significant.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi guys,

Fuel economy update as promised:

I have noticed a significant highway mpg improvement. I get about 26 mpg on the highway with MSII controlling the fuel settings. I haven't moved to spark control yet. According to a Peugeot mechanic I know, this engine didn't get much better than 22 mpg in US model 505s typically. So that's a marked improvement.

Around town, I think I have some more work to do in terms of my fuel map tuning and accel enrichment. I get about 18 mpg, which is roughly the same as I used to.

I have a 4.11 differential in my 505, and my friend has a spare 3.08 diff. I am going to swap the 3.08 diff, which will drop my revs by a huge amount. A little too much probably but I'm just doing it as an experiment. Instead of revving at 2800 rpms at 60 mph, I'll be closer to 2100 rpms in top gear. The ZDJL is much torquier than the XN series, so I'm hoping it will be able to hold its ground at 2100 rpm. Maybe it won't, but that's what 4th gear is for. I am going to see how this effects my mileage around town and on the highway.

Anyways, I've heard that diff changes on 505s with disc brakes are absurdly easy, so I'm looking forward to testing this out.

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Hi Wade,

Easiest way I know is to undo and pull one hub with the disk and axle assembled, then the diff can be removed to the one side.

I've never driven the SOHC engine, but I've always been VERY impressed with the Xn6 torque, and always thought it was the torquier of the two.

Great highway economy by the way!  

Rabin

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Hey Rabin,

Glad it's not a difficult job as I may swap in a couple!

It's my understanding that the ZDJL is the torquier of the two, but that comes with a price, as it is certainly slower to wind up than the XN-series engines. However it seems to be pretty tough and capable of good economy. I seem to have exaggerated the difference between the ZDJL and XN6 torque. According to Wikipedia the XN6 engine makes 116 ft-lbs @ 3500 rpm, while the ZDJL makes 131 ft-lbs at 3500 rpm (these are the stats for the American versions of the engines).

I think Peugeot dropped the ball when they assigned a 4.11 differential to this engine, as I know it can handle more load at lower rpms than it currently is asked to.

Best regards,

Wade

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Wade, i've recently started following you build, and i'm not that knowledge of the older peugeot and Douvrin engines, but i'm know gearing, the 4.11-1 final drive is good for towing and hill climbs but terrible for everyday driving and fuel economy, the 3.08-1 is to high, with the 505 tire size best final drive will be 3.5- 3.7-1 for good of the offline pickup and highway drive, i'm personally using 3.308-1 torsen diff in my build with195 55r15 and a diesel rasio gearbox.

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Hello Goce,

Yes, I am aware that 3.08 will be way too high, but I have a free 3.08 at my disposal so I wanted to pop it in and try it out as an experiment. I will probably end up attempting to buy a higher ratio diff from a local mechanic who has Peugeot parts. Looking at another post on this website, here are the relevant diffs:

J - 9X37 = 4.111 - 86-89 Turbo Wagon Auto, XN6 Sedan, 87-? Euro ZDJL Sedan

K - 9X35 = 3.889 - V6-Auto Sedan, 89 ZN3J and Turbo Auto Sedan

L - 9X34 = 3.778

M - 10X37 = 3.700 - V6-Manual Sedan, 89 ZN3J 5-sp Sedan

N - 12X43 = 3.583

P - 13X45 = 3.462 - Turbo Sedan, 89 Turbo 5-sp Sedan

Q - 11X35 = 3.182

R - 13X43 = 3.308

S - 13X40 = 3.077

Depending on how the "S" differential that I put into my car feels, I will decide whether I want a M, N or P differential (assuming he has those available).

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For all round driving (and both dirt and ice rallycrossing) - I quite liked the 4.11 ratios in my XN6 5sp so I think Peugeot was spot on with the choice.

Ideal diff ratios are entirely dependent on intended use, and if hypermiling is the goal then the 3.08 diff will suit nicely - you'll just compromise performance.

FWIW - my xn1 in my 504 is a euro engine with a Weber 32/36 and it would stomp any of the 505 XN6 cars I've owned.  I also owned an 84 505 5sp XN6 car that was the sweetest running car that got absurdly good fuel economy - easily getting 7.5L/100KM ( 31mpg) highway averages.

I think once you have spark control you should be able to make another big improvement since you'll have complete control over ignition advance curves.  (Vacuum advance is notoriously dodgey on XN* engines anyway)

Also wanted to mention diffs out of 87-89 cars will most likely be open diffs unless you find the unicorn Torsen (P) diff.

Rabin

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45 minutes ago, Bean said:

For all round driving (and both dirt and ice rallycrossing) - I quite liked the 4.11 ratios in my XN6 5sp so I think Peugeot was spot on with the choice.

Ideal diff ratios are entirely dependent on intended use, and if hypermiling is the goal then the 3.08 diff will suit nicely - you'll just compromise performance.

FWIW - my xn1 in my 504 is a euro engine with a Weber 32/36 and it would stomp any of the 505 XN6 cars I've owned.  I also owned an 84 505 5sp XN6 car that was the sweetest running car that got absurdly good fuel economy - easily getting 7.5L/100KM ( 31mpg) highway averages.

I think once you have spark control you should be able to make another big improvement since you'll have complete control over ignition advance curves.  (Vacuum advance is notoriously dodgey on XN* engines anyway)

Also wanted to mention diffs out of 87-89 cars will most likely be open diffs unless you find the unicorn Torsen (P) diff.

Rabin

The unicorn Torsen (P) diff came standard in the 405 mi16x4 with 13X43 = 3.308 Torsen, if someone is looking for it.

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Hi Goce,

The 1989 505 Turbo is a VERY rare car here, only 14 5-sp cars were known imported (still looking for official verification), and likely less than 100 automatics although no one discusses automatic numbers.  This makes it VERY hard to find parts for it.  All V6 cars will be open diffs due to them having the newer "ABS" updates to suspension and rear axles, same with the 87-88 turbo cars that have the newer suspension (except for the 89' that got the Torsen).

I would guess the 405 Mi-14x4 is even more rare these days - and for sure here since we never got the x4 version in North America.

Rabin

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About 80% of the mi16x4 have broken the splines on the output shaft and there no replacement parts, therefore they are ether FWD and don't need the rear diff or are striped for parts therefore easy to found especially in the uk

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  • 1 month later...

The Renault system that is being discussed is the RENIX (REN) 239 (made in a joint venture between Bendix and Siemens before Siemens bought out Bendix in 1988) with Bosch LU-Jetronic.  (I technically don't know how this works as the Renault has an a LU-Jetronic  and the Peugeot and LU-H Jetronic...  the Hot Wire air flow meter duct replaces the mechanical flapper and spring system used in the earlier LU-Jetronic... apparently, people above are saying it works well.)  There are wheelbarrows full of them at Lesharoland.  That company takes the ZDL (2.2 L, 8V Douvrin engine that Renault calls a J7T series) and replaces them with a Chrysler 3.3 L, V6).  Most of their spare engines, FWD trannys, and ECUs are sold to MobilityRV by the pound for Winnebago Lesharo and Itasca Phasar ownthe ers, so if they don't want to sell the spares directly to you as a one-off retail sale, go to the MobilityRV site and tell them what you want.  Idle for the AT is 850 rpm.  

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  • 8 months later...

Hi everyone,

I have an update! Stewart, I hope you're listening, I need a seasoned ZDJL expert on deck!

I've successfully built and installed the missing tooth wheel crankshaft wheel. The 505 is running and I am controlling both fuel AND spark!

I owe much of my design to an Australian friend of mine, Rob Swan, he built a similar system last year and is using it on his 505 ZDJL 851.y (the 851.y is the high compression Series 1 GTI ZDJL, my engine is the US spec 851.x with lower compression).

Anyways, I noticed his timing map looks much like the one Stewart posted earlier on this thread, about 35 degrees of max centrifugal advance. Bizarrely enough, my US spec manual shows the maximum centrifugal advance to be only 25 degrees. Using his spark map, my engine performed beautifully with absolutely no knocking. Could this be why the USA ZDJLs were infamous for being more sluggish than their Renault counterparts. Massively retarded timing to meet some emission standard? I'm shocked, I can't imagine that retarding my timing 10 degrees would result in better performance, from what I understand power will flatline past a certain advance - sometimes before the knock limit, but I've never heard of 10 degrees of flat power and no knocking!

Here is a link to some pictures of my build, as well as my ZDJL 851.x spark advance table from the manual:

https://goo.gl/photos/gZ13wHQKazLwqyVc9

Bizarre.

I will report economy improvements soon. Drive-ability and responsiveness has improved significantly with the better crank trigger installed. This car drives way better than the factory ZDJL did.

Wade

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  • 2 weeks later...

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