'87 505 GLS Fuel Injection System

[wadehilts]

Hi all,

I just purchased an '87 505 GLS with 220k miles on the odometer, I have a lot of experience working on 404s, having done a complete mechanical restoration of my 1969 404 (at age 22, I may be the youngest person in North America to have rebuilt an XC6 engine!). The 505 is new to me.

It has the ZDJL 2.2L in it, and it recently was completely rebuilt. Everything new except for the fuel injection system, which is the Bosch Jetronic LU2 - i think. I am picking up the car on Saturday, but have test driven it and would like to sort out a few issues. My goal is to maximize the gas mileage and power that the car gets. Here are the problems that may be related to the fuel injection system that I am aware of:

• The previous owner says that the gas mileage has dropped from 20 mpg in the city to 18 mpg in the last couple months.
• The tachometer bounces all over - especially about 2000 rpm. It is almost useless at this point.

I found this technical document on peugeot505.info : http://peugeot505.info//files/manuals/tt-sd-nsd_15-5.pdf

This seems to be a good place to start troubleshooting, but some of the testing requires a "tachymetric bypass harness P/N 0091.94" and something tells me I'm not going to find one of those. Keep in mind, my goal here is to improve gas mileage and power if possible. Does anybody have recommendations as to what I can test? Are there any parts I should just go ahead and replace? Would a different fuel injection system with better efficiency be an option? I'm open to anything at this point, just looking to learn. I will talk to the former owner tonight, so if I should ask for any more information, let me know!

I've also found some injectors on eBay that apparently fit my 505 (they're listed as Volvo injectors), is this an item I should look into replacing?

Thanks in advance, I'm excited to promote myself to a 2 Peugeot driveway soon!

[bill]

For the tachometer issue, you might try cleaning the contacts on the instrument cluster.  Remove the steering wheel (loosen the nut but leave some threads so you don't get whacked).  On each side of the cluster there are two tiny holes.  Insert small probe to undo the retainer.  Then clean the connector contacts.

 

Bill

[SRDT]

Be careful with the injectors, you better check the part number on the old ones and use it here:

http://www.bosch-automotive-catalog.com/en_GB/product-search

Using a modern aftermarket injection and ignition system like megasquirt or others can make a huge difference, the LU2 is incredibly basic by today standards.

[Stewart]

My memory and records are pretty good on the LE2. Lambda is LE2 , no Lambda is LE Jetronic. Same computer with or without lambda here in Aus.

Injectors fired each engine revolution. If you would like some knowledge to find a way forward I can help. Renault nailed the software to run the engine in the R25. I reckon closed loop wideband mixture with digital ignition is your answer. Megasquirt is a great option . However a distributor with digital control with a fuel only closed loop ECU will work great as well. 

[wadehilts]

Hi Stewart, I actually have been talking with a few guys on AussieFrogs and received a lot of good advice. I heard about the Renault engine with Renix fuel management being streets better than the Peugeot Bosch system.

http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/peugeot-forum/121067-87-505-gls-fuel-injection-system.html

To paraphrase my plan, Stewart, I plan to do exactly as you recommend:

• Upgrade to MSII, converting to electronic ignition and using a crank sensor to get a tach input. I'll switch over to wasted spark and eliminate the dizzy. I'll be upgrading all my sensors and tossing the AFM. Wideband O2 will be exciting, I'm considering mounting a AFR digital readout on the left hand side of the dash (I guess right hand for you Aussies) between the door and steering wheel. I don't have cruise control and none of those little buttons are used over there, so it may be just the spot.
• My current plan is to start with a fuel only implementation, then move to ignition after I've gotten that fairly sorted. I will need to figure out some way to mount the missing tooth wheel and Hall/VR sensor on the crank pulley. I'll also rebuild my air intake system and add a temp sensor there.
• Exciting stuff, I'll update as the project progresses!

Currently, I'm restoring the body of a 404 that I've been working on for the last few years, so that should keep me pretty busy.

Best,

Wade

[Stewart]

Cool. I'm not sure if MSII does closed loop. One thing I play with is AccuSpark. Its simple as it fits in the distributor . They have a tuning box as an extra which you can use to find perfect timing. Then you only need to control the fuel. I fitted a megajolt to an R5turbo gt renault. It used the Ford ignition EDIS. It was superb to use. The MS software is fantastic.

]

[wadehilts]

Stewart, MSII does in fact support closed loop lambda control. You can also fit a wideband O2 to get precise AFR readings. Locking out the distributor and using my 505's Bosch 123 ICM's tach signal is an option, but I figured I might as well go all the way and fit a missing tooth wheel on the crank, which is the most precise way to get a tach signal (no distributor slop). However, I've heard using the distributor provides superb timing and excellent results as well!

I have considered something like AccuSpark in my 404's dizzy, but then again, working under the hood in the 404 is a pleasure IMO.. so much space! So maybe I'll just leave it unmolested.

Wade

[Stewart]

Thanks for that Wade. I like the idea of closed loop fuel control. Am right in thinking MSII does closed loop lambda and MSIII closed loop mixture control? It would be nice to have closed loop mixture for idle mixtures with large overlap cams and different air temps. Just that bit of extra control if it's easy enough, that is. The 404's and 504's suffered with worn distributor cams and bushed. This caused all sorts of idle and light cruise surges and touches of unevenness. The 404's actually wore the bronze worm wheel in 4 distinct wear patterns from the worn distributor causing the drive line to oscillate. If yours is unworn great, they were a beautiful distributor mechanically. One of the tricky things to do with the 404 was to make them 1800 cc. South Africa had many as a standard engine. Looks the same as the 1600 but extra torque and the 1800 was a wonderful smooth engine. Just a bit of back ground for you, that's all! I'm really keen to build up either MSII or 3 for my V8 and a hot V6 I have. The MS3 is getting a bit on the expensive side in kit form but the software is great.

[Stewart]

Wade, I checked that training manual you posted. LU2 is what we called LE2 over here. ( by my memory anyway). I can give you a few pointers in getting it sweet. I have some of these here running with lambda disconnected and retuned cam timing etc. The ECU only fine tunes the mixture in a very narrow range using Lambda. However if we tweek a few things and fit the Innovate wideband to send our own data to the LU2 for mixture you should end up with a reasonable result for economy and driveability as it is. The system works ok but power and economyl would be better with the MSII. But that is a whole lot of work!

 

[SRDT]

LE2 is an evolution of the first L-Jetronic with built-in cold start enrichment, the LU is the same but with lambda.

[Stewart]

Thankyou.

 

[wadehilts]

Hi Stewart,

Thanks for the interest and advice! My MSII kit arrives today, and I plan to get soldering this weekend. Thus far, my plan is:

• First I will do a fuel only implementation. I plan to use MSII's relay board and replace the 505's tachy relay. This is simply because I've heard about interior fires because of wonky relays, and my fuel pump occasionally has acted up (runs too long in its primer stage before cranking). This sounds "simple enough". But comes with a great deal of sensor installation.
  • CLT sensor: I will use the Bosch M12 sensor that is stock with the 505. I've bought a new one and have the datasheet to properly calibrate it with MSII's software.
  • Wideband O2: I plan to use the innovate LC-2. I'm leaning towards paying a little extra for the AFR readout that I could fit somewhere on the dash. May be useful for tuning and as a sort of "econoscope".
  • MAP sensor: built into the MSII, I'll probably tee-off my distributor or heater controls. this will go direct into the MS unit.
  • IAT: I am still trying to figure this one out. I've heard of a lot of heatsoak issues, and I want to avoid those. I'm going to be removing my AFM and replumbing my intake system with less restrictive piping where necessary (maybe just replacing where the AFM was with tubing). I'm not sure where the best place to put the IAT sensor is. I may have to do some experimentation. I'd love to talk to someone who has done this before with success.
• After a successful fuel-only implementation has been tuned, I will progress to fuel and spark control.
  • 36-1 missing tooth wheel with a hall sensor will provide my MSII with an ignition trigger.
  • I will ditch the dizzy and replace the coil with a 4-tower coil. I will then be able to use MSII to control a wasted-spark system.
• There will be significant tuning done after each step probably, but I think this will be safer than jumping into a complete implementation and ending up with no idea why the damn car won't fire!

Let me know what you guys think!

Wade

[Stewart]

How goes the ECU Wade?

[wadehilts]

Hey Stewart, I hope you got your vittles!

The ECU install has begun! Last weekend was very busy. I have successfully installed a fuel-only control system in the 505. I am in the process of learning how to tune, with the assistance of an Australian gentlemen by the name of Rob, who has done a similar thing to his 505. We are working on the missing tooth crank wheel, but for now I'm focused on the tuning side of things and getting used to the software. I replaced the AFM with metal tubing and modified a TPS to fit. All my sensors, including wideband O2 and up and running well. I'm getting my ignition trigger from the coil negative at this point. For some reason I cannot upload pictures to this thread... here is a link: http://imgur.com/a/NURjm

The car certainly already runs WAY better than it had before. Smoother acceleration, better response. I am still dialing in the cold start enrichment as well as fighting some heat-soak issues. The IAT rises to 150 F when sitting, which makes idling really rough and lean.

I can only imagine how getting a perfect ignition control would make this baby perform! I'm super overwhelmed with the tuning software, so I need a couple days to straighten out my issues with fuel delivery after I've learned more about it. 

Thanks for all the advice!

Wade

[Stewart]

That air temp is fine Wade. The fuel is vapourising well. I suggest you don't use air temp to trim fuel just yet as the 3 major inputs are rpm,coolant temp and map. Turn off tps ,air temp trims and plug the fuel pressure vacuum line until you get the fuel map working well with the 3 major inputs only. Of course the wideband can be used to auto tune and is pivotal to this mapping stage, but you need a constant engine coolant temp to get your primary map. If could make these suggestions for you,

!/ Stabilise fuel pressure to a constant by plugging the vacuum to the regulator.

2/Stabilise ignition timing by plugging the vac advance and make sure the ignition is advancing and returning back to idle figures every time. If the vac advance is operating the the MAP sensor changes quite a lot and makes it difficult for autotune to quickly adj mixture. Get a basic map done then let it auto tune with vac adv connected. Then auto tune with vac line on fuel reg connected. Or goes closed loop with fuel reg plugged.

3/ Don't tune the mixture until the engine is at least 180F and air at least 95F. If the engine is fluctuating in coolant temp a lot we need to fix that first.

4/ Set the valve clearances so each cylinder has equal valve timing.

The engine idle is affected by MAP from loads, ignition advance and temp. 2 degrees adv change will drastically change idle speed.

Plenty more to learn but this should get you pretty close to initial stage.

[wadehilts]

Hi Stewart,

Thanks for the knowledge yet again! Are you experienced with TunerStudio? I have been wading through it this weekend and fine tuning a few parameters such as injector dead time. Basically, to start off my tuning, I received a tune file from the aforementioned Rob gentleman. He came to this tuning on his Aussie spec 505, although I'm not sure exactly how he developed it. The way I understand tuning is that you set up an AFR table first. Attached is the AFR table I imported from Rob's tune and what I have been using on my car. My idle is set at 13.8 at 45 kpa and 800 rpm.

The Volumetric Efficiency table can be autotuned with reference to this AFR table. Using this setup, I have gotten the car running very well when up to full engine temp and everything. I have some datalogging files I could share if you're interested. My poor running occurs when the engine temp drops or heat soaking occurs (although a short drive typically wipes out the heat soak problem).

I guess my question is: how do I know the car is running optimally? is the AFR table the first table that you create? To touch on your points listed:

1. OK, no problem
2. Wouldn't plugging vacuum advance make the car run like garbage?
3. Got it, I don't start auto-tune until the engine is hot and up to full operational temp
4. I have set the valve clearances per spec at 0.1mm intake 0.24mm exhaust. Everything sounds good there.

I'm still a little fuzzy on how to set the initial table you mentioned, is this the AFR table or the VE table? How do I know the engine is tuned optimally? It seems to get confusing when the ideal AFR is different across all the loading and rpm scenarios.

Thanks!

Wade

 

[Stewart]

I guess if the engine isn't pinging with the basic fuel map you have leaving the vac advance on is safe. 

There is a lot to consider with fuel mixture but two things are really important here.

1/Max power is 12.5 : 1

2/ Stoichiometric is 14.5 : 1 

13.7 is a nice idle for the zdj engine so all good there. For areas around idle speed set at 13.7 from idle rpm to 2000. Make under idle say 12.5 and high vacuum areas 14.5. Make the rest of the graph 12.5 so you get a nice firm mixture control. Once that is done let the auto tune fine tune the map to 14.5 at cruise and light throttle areas, that is getting very close. Make sure accel enrichment and any other fuel trims are off! From this connect your fuel reg to vac and see what difference it makes to the mixtures and choose whether to run it connected and retune or leave as is! More soon, I have to get to work, sorry.

[Stewart]

Wade, this is complicated stuff and thank you for sharing this adventure. I am amazed at how quickly you have made this happen and how you have tuned it. The other amazing thing is that you have done it using the std ign. curve and the dist ign. system.

The MS system , the not too small fact that, you have also managed to assemble, then fit the the MS, and then utilise the software, needs to be acknowledged as,

 Great Work Sir,

We do good work here Friend.

[wadehilts]

Thanks Stewart,

I'm assuming you're the gentlemen on AussieFrogs called "Stew". You've provided a lot of insight and knowledge on the ZDJL. Don't you have one of those engines in a 404? that must really pull. My XC6 in my 404 has plenty of grab at just 80 HP.

Every day I've been dialing in the fine tuning parameters to get a more stable idle. I must admit, I was quite shocked that my Megasquirt system fired up after only 30 minutes of fiddling around. An injector o-ring wasn't seated right, so I got a nice little petrol-shower on my first startup, but otherwise I had wiring everything up OK the first time! Not a very likely scenario for me...

As far as the tuning, I owe much of my success to Rob for providing a tune file that was already configured for the Australian ZDJL, which was close enough to drive right out of the driveway without any significant issues!

I've considered adding a Idle Air Control stepper motor setup, as MSII directly supports this. It seems my Bosch Aux Air Valve doesn't supply enough air on a cold start for me to get above 800 rpms. I've adjusted it to it's maximum dilation too. It's not a critical issue, as the car still drives OK enough to get it warmed up. The idle is stable and smooth at full operating temp. Once I add spark control I'll be able to adjust spark advance and retard such that my idle enters a stabilizing feedback loop when it starts to drop too low.

I'll post some more updates when I've gotten things dialed in further!

Wade

[Stewart]

Yes I use the ZDJ with a T25G on 7 psi in the 404. It breaks things in the driveline if i give it any more torque. Fast car except it refuses to smoke the tyres from stand still. Grips and goes or breaks a uni/tailshaft/gearbox! I did have 18psi from a T#/4 but that is just silly. Still did't fry the tyres though but Lordy didn't get from 65mph to 120mph fast. It went to wind off the clock on a hiway i was on so fast I just backed off the throttle and let her wind down. All the while thinking that this car had a top speed of 82 mph and what if the bonnet lifts, my head gets pulled off with G forces or the brakes lock or something? I did 3 more times in case I was dreaming, then came to my senses and I'm still smiling 3 years on. Nice work on the fuel set up. I will going MS 2 the very next engine.

[Bean]

Great work Wade - have you had a chance to see any improvements in fuel economy or any measurable performance gains so far?

 

Rabin

[wadehilts]

Hi Rabin,

Nothing too exciting yet that I have measured.

I've been spending a lot of time tuning the engine's fuel map. I have definitely noticed a SIGNIFICANT increase in responsiveness and power. The car runs much better when up to operating speed. I have tuned my MAT correction to avoid the heatsoak issues I got when trying a hot start or sitting in traffic too long.

Currently, I am considering adding a Idle Air Control stepper motor, as I am struggling with getting the car to run reasonably when cold. The Bosch Aux Air Valve doesn't provide enough air even at full open adjustment. I think the part may be worn.

As far as fuel economy, I got about 17 mpg on my last tank, which is about the same as before. EXCEPT this doesn't really mean anything considering I probably burned half that tank in my driveway tuning the idle and fuel maps.

I'll keep you guys posted as I progressively sort through the fuel tuning.

Wade

[Stewart]

Wade, good work. You will burn a lot of fuel getting the map right. Once that is done you can change the ignition to suit. Think of it that way. If the aux air valve isn't raising idle cold you have an air leak in the air system for sure. I used to hose clamp or glue the air hoses. If they feel loose they are leaking vacuum. Another reason is that if the aux air isn't turning off you have the idle air set for hot and the aux is still open. Check it is closing.12 v in and to earth for the heater in it must work too. When you can see if you can set the dist timing to get close to this or get the map ign working. This is a very safe timing to start you with. Are you getting any ping, by the way? 

 

[wadehilts]

Hi Stewart,

You are probably right about the air leak. Last weekend, I shit-canned the Bosch Aux Air Valve and replaced that mess of (likely leaking) hoses with a single 2 wire Pulse Width Modulation valve (Bosch 0 280 140 516). The Megasquirt can directly control this actuator, so now I have the option to configure a open-loop warmup and also closed-loop idle control. This will allow me to account for various environmental changes too!

So far it is working ok, but I just installed it last night, so I need to tweak it more on the software side of things.

I think one issue that is cryptic and hard to define is my ignition triggering from the coil negative. I believe I am getting a lot of noise from that signal, despite my efforts in the noise filtering menu. This made it tricky to dial in my injector dead-time. I was getting absurdly low dead times when matching the AFRs with different pulse configurations at a fixed rpm. I think I tuned through the noise, and have a dead time of about .8 ms now. We'll see.

Since I plan to install a trigger wheel for dead-on accurate tach signal eventually, I suppose this problem will be fixed eventually. As for now, I fear I may be suffering instability at lower idle rpms. I notice that the rpms will collapse into the cranking range sometimes when I rev the engine and let it rev down to idle. Also when I load the engine up by cranking down on the power steering, the MAP jumps up and the RPMs drop to around 500. The car will die easily in this scenario. I'm hoping to "tune around" this with my PWM valve in closed loop PID mode, and then use timing advance and hopefully have a better tach signal when I move to missing tooth wheel triggering.

I guess another interim option could be triggering off of the distributor reluctor. I know there is essentially a 4 tooth cam wheel on the dizzy. I think it is a VR sensor, so it'd require some filtering/tuning to get that working. It would probably be less noisy though.

Just some thoughts for now. I highly recommend the PWM valve. It is much cheaper (less than $60 for circuit parts and PWM valve) and is more fluid than a stepper motor, which is MSII's default option.

Best,

Wade

[Stewart]

I guess its a start to try the reluctor. It depends on how good it's signal is. They have a winding in them which shorts out and creates all sorts of issues. The 2 end pins are the 2 wires from the dist to the module. It should have a resistance of 1000 ohms at 20 C approx.