Hugh's 1987 505 STX V6 Project

[PeugeotPilot]

So, having completely failed to document my California trip to pick up two V6 505s (one of which is still stuck at the border, but that's another story...) I have decided I'm not going to make that mistake when I set about reconditioning the 5-speed STX I bought from Thomas Kinder. This is my winter project, the object of which is to be driving this car next spring. Time and finances will dictate how far I get, but I'm optimistic. This car was, to be frank, absolutely worth the long drive to Roseville to get it and bring it home. It will be a very special car when I'm finished with it, and will make a nice sister ship to the STI, which I will be working on concurrently. My goal is to have both in tip-top shape next summer.

So, with that in mind, details of the project will be posted here, along with links to the videos I plan to post on YouTube in order to document everything. I uploaded the first video today, an overview of the car as it stands right now, talking a bit about some of the things that need to be fixed and some of my plans for it. Each time I tackle a major task I plan to post details and a video, hopefully to be of interest to the group and also to keep me motivated. So, without further ado here is a link to the Walkaround video, and a few pictures of my new baby. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm-4NJ3gwTo

[anj]

Welcome to the family.

Arun

[Martin Hicks]

Good luck. Can't wait to see the finished product.

[boostin'euro89]

love it! Ive got an identical STX 5 speed, with the same amount of paint fading, but with a little more rust! (same blue)

[my3AWDgst]

Awesome,great meeting you as well Hugh :-)

[PeugeotPilot]

Thanks to all of you for your comments. This is a really supportive group and I really appreciate that, especially as I am a member of a few other car groups (non-Peugeot) that are quite dysfunctional. Arun, I really like what you've done with your 505s and I will have quite a few questions in the future about the setup you use on your STI in particular.

I finally got the car from Lethbridge back home to Seven Persons (around 150km/100 miles) yesterday. Now the fun begins. Still cleaning out the garage so I can actually get the car inside. The chrome fender arch trim appears to be held on in multiple places by screws into the rolled edge of the fender lip - this is unfortunate, but it's also not very visible. If the screws provide the majority of the attachment strength then I am hopeful that I can remove the trim easily with a minimum of dealing with old adhesive. We'll see.

For kicks I threw the Grant steering wheel (that I plan to use in my eventual Turbo V6 505) on in place of the stock unit to see how a 350mm wheel looks. The Nardi I want to install is the same diameter and similar in design. It looks really good, actually. I will however place it a bit farther away from the driver; the Grant setup is optimized for a Series I car so the shaft is a bit long. In a day or two I hope to find time to fiddle a bit more. Organizing the garage is a huge chore, but the prospect of having some fun tearing into this project keeps me motivated. More to come shortly.

Hugh

[my3AWDgst]

Keep those updates coming:-)))

[SRDT]

Turbo V6?

[PeugeotPilot]

SRDT:

This one is normally aspirated, but in the near future I'm going to construct another 505 powered by a turbocharged and intercooled PRV V6, and detail it here in a separate build thread. That's a longer-term project. This particular STX is just getting an extensive refit and a few upgrades as I want to be driving it next summer.

Hugh

[anj]

Hi Hugh

Thanks for the comments. The STI is my current DD and I just added the winter tires on new16" bronze Volk Rays that look great. The price for the rims are getting higher as I paid 200/ea for the last pair and now have two full sets. The best mod so far are the progressive springs that are Rabins, that I forgot to send him and accidently installed. Other than the rims,tires, springs, calipers,Biodes and Torsen the car is stock.

The STX will get the VEMS and turbo when I can convince Rabin to come down for a wrench week.

Arun

[SRDT]

If you need informations about the Renault 2.5 and 3.0 turbo feel free to ask.

[Bean]

Best line I've read today "The best mod so far are the progressive springs that are Rabins, that I forgot to send him and accidently installed."

I definitely hope to help both Hugh AND Arun next summer if all goes well.

Car looks great Hugh and I hope we're able to help each other to ensure all our project cars make progress next summer...

Rabin

[PeugeotPilot]

I really got a chuckle out of that line as well. "Accidentally installed." I love it. If Rabin ever manages to find a company that will duplicate those springs I will buy at least two sets, one for this STX and another for the eventual V6 Turbo. Arun, you may be forced to provide measurements at some point!

Either today or tomorrow I will be pulling the STX into the hangar at work and doing a few things to it. If that works out then I hope to have video #2 posted and details here right after. I was at Princess Auto today and happened to spot some nice-looking rod ends that might be just the thing for my custom short shifter setup. Pricey, but worth it if they have the effect I want. Also, yesterday I removed the engine-driven viscous-coupled fan. I will be replacing it with an aftermarket dual variable-speed electric setup controlled by an adjustable thermostatic switch.

I also hope we can get together a few times this coming season and help each other move our projects forward, Rabin. This is half of the benefit to being part of a community like this, plus it's a lot of fun.

[Bean]

I'm actually really looking forward to comparing my 505 turbo 5sp back to back with your V6 5sp...

Arun and I often discuss - but we've never been able to have our cars together yet. Much more doable to compare against yours now - and likely good info for both of us moving forward.

So far my guess is the v6 is the better stock "out of the box" car, but my hope is that the turbo car has more easily accessible modification potential and can be the better car with mods for the least $$ spent.

Rabin

[my3AWDgst]

I'm looking forward to results.

When I raced Thomas on the freeway in he's V6 A/T I pulled away hard in third gear. So I did on Marc's 86 A/T turbo.

When he and Marc did Third gear pull I was right behind them and I was so much quicker that I was swerving from left to right trying to fined place to pass them both. I was very surprised at that....

[PeugeotPilot]

Right now I suspect that a stock 145 BHP STX is significantly slower than a stock N9TEA car in both acceleration and top speed. Due only to the latter's turbo lag, I think the V6 might be a bit quicker off the line, but that will be about it. Still, you have to consider that my reference point is a five-speed XN6 car, so to me the V6 feels plenty quick. I'm saving the more serious engine mods for the later V6 Turbo project, but what I do want to do with this car a bit later is rebuild the low-mileage ZN3J I have in one of my other cars to the European spec (170 BHP) and swap it in. I think 25 extra HP would be a nice enhancement. It should run with the stock late-model Turbo 505s then, at least in North American tune.

When you get a chance to dyno that car of yours, Savo, it would be really interesting to see what your power-to-weight ratio is. I doubt that any 505 I build will be able to beat your 405, but the Turbo V6 might at least come close.

Once this project is on the road I'll measure acceleration and top speed and get some actual numbers.

[my3AWDgst]

I'll dyno it next year after cams and GTI6 intake manifold swap. I'm mot saying my MI is that fast but that I was surprised that It was that much quicker then both of them.

Yes V6 has way more low end TQ then XU9J4,Thomas and I did low RPM pull and it was quicker till HP came alive.

[PeugeotPilot]

A quick update: I'm still trying to get my garage cleared and organized so I can get the STX inside. Soon, very soon, I can really tear into the project. In the meantime, I happened to be up at the Cayley property a few days ago and although I wasn't able to stay very long I did grab a few loose parts for the STX - specifically a set of valve covers from a disassembled ZM112 (PRV V6 from a 604) to install as well as probably the last decent sunroof wind deflector I have around. So, you may ask, why the valve covers? Well, part of my mission is to reorganize the under-hood layout of the STX so that it's more attractive and you can actually see the engine. Take a good look at the pictures of the existing setup, and then look at the ZM112 valve covers - as you can see, the crankcase breather/oil cap is on the other side. This means I can run much shorter hoses to the section of intake upstream of the throttle body, reducing some of the clutter. My plan is to have them bead-blasted, remove all unnecessary mounting flanges to make them look better, prime them with zinc chromate, and paint them black. Since I was going to check and adjust the valve clearances anyway, this doesn't really mean much extra work and I think the results will be worth it.

[Bean]

Have you thought about going to go with a crinkle finish in black or red?

I used a black crinkle coat on some engine covers on my ZX-10 and it turned out great.

Rabin

[PeugeotPilot]

Crinkle finish sounds like a great idea. Black for this car I think, and probably red for the Turbo V6. Kind of like a Testa Rossa.

[PeugeotPilot]

High time for a progress report, so here goes.  I had to kick the STX out of the garage a while ago to make room for Jamie Kitman's 404 wagon, which is pretty close to being finished now.  The winter has been so mild lately that I might just continue to work on the STX outside for the time being.  Work that's been completed so far includes removal of the chrome wheel arch covers (very easy to take off as it turns out), fitting a black deck lid spoiler in place of the blue one that came on the car, and partial stripping of the interior.  The one job I think might get a bit complicated will be the removal and replacement of the dashboard, which is not nearly as simple as in a Series I 505, but I'll just take my time and take lots of pictures so I don't wind up with leftover parts.  I want the interior of this car to be as close to perfect as possible.

On the exterior, I've collapsed the bumper shock mounts and moved the bumpers in, 1-1/2 inches at the front and 2" at the rear.  They could move in further but I was after a particular look and this achieves it.  I still have to figure out how to fill the gap between the bottom of the bumper and the air dam, which is greatly reduced but actually more obvious now.  I want the front end to have a "finished" look, so I'm leaning toward some kind of rubber weatherstripping or perhaps actually attaching the air dam to the bumper in some way.  Perhaps I can even improve the aerodynamics of the front end a bit in the process.

Under the hood, the engine had to go back together just as it came apart, so basically no progress there unless you count the removal of the viscous-drive cooling fan.  I found a dual electric fan setup on one of my Turbo cars (front mounted ahead of the A/C condenser) so that will wind up in the STX and be controlled by an adjustable thermostatic switch. We will find out this summer if that provides enough air flow, but I think it will be adequate.  If not I'll install some aftermarket units that move more air.

The fully-functional electric stereo antenna will be removed and installed in the blue STI.  The STX is going to get an aftermarket European-style antenna from a seller on eBay.  I'm also planning to fit a wind deflector to the sunroof. I've decided on a steering wheel and a few other details as well.  Even with the baked paint this car is going to look pretty cool.  It will take me a while before I can afford to have it painted, unfortunately.

These pictures were taken a while ago when there was still snow on the ground.  Colours are a bit off because of the frost on everything but they show the tucked bumpers to good effect.

[JohnLane]

The Bent-Six can be more amusing.  

[PeugeotPilot]

"Bent-Six?" You mean the odd-fire I assume, John? Your Turbo PRV engine is legendary in this group and I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts as to which version is best suited to modification.

[JohnLane]

We have the straight six... Bent six... Boxer six... Lol...

Only a couple of  reasons I can think of to keep an odd-firing engine that way if it needs attention... Rules require it or One is stuck on absolutely everything about it being as standard.  *Cough... Snotty DeLorean owners...*Cough... Why otherwise put up with a shaky idle and having to jump through hoops for engine management Ect?

I've built many variations on the PRV theme...   I'm fond of the Volvo cross-bolted main block with it's water-oil cooler. I don't build odd-firing engines.  The forged steel even-firing crank drops right in. Change cam timing... Done.

I give it three liter liners... Work on the heads.... Forged pistons and H-beam rods.   The crank can get offset ground for more displacement and more static compression or we make the dish for whatever static compression ratio we like for that force-fed motor.    

There are a number of choices for cams... Choose for what the engine will be used for. 

Don't know what exhaust looks like in a Pug... Manifolds fitted to every Volvo were hideous.  Rectangular passages.  Really.

My turbo motor got Eagle Premier/Dodge Monaco manifolds that I cut the flanges off of and welded .120 wall tubing to for a heavy but long lived exhaust to feed the T-4.  The EP/DM manifolds are a huge improvement over what Volvo fitted. 

For a Pug the engine bay is tight compared with Volvo so a supercharger with water-air inter-cooling seems best. 

I'm wanting to give one direct injection so it can have a high static compression ratio, be force-fed and run on 91 octane fuel. Someday.

[PeugeotPilot]

This is pure gold; thanks for your thoughts, John. I gotta admit I wasn't familiar with the "bent-six" term although I guess it's obvious really. My goals for this and the other 505 build are pretty modest: 200-250 hp, mostly because I don't want to re-engineer the entire driveline. The stock BA10/5 transmission will reliably handle about 220 lb-ft maximum torque so that's the most I'm after. I've been considering just dropping the 2.5 Turbo PRV setup from an Alpine GTA into this STX and run VEMS or Megasquirt on it. Apparently this arrangement will fit the 505 engine bay. For the (later) Danielson-spec 505 project my Holy Grail is minimum weight, so I'll probably go with a normally aspirated PRV built to rev and breathe really well, like Danielson themselves did. But like any of my project ideas, these continue to evolve...

Were Volvo the only ones to offer the cross-bolted bottom end in production form? And were the odd-fire cranks cast iron then? I wasn't aware of either of these details.