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transmission swaps for 405s


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i am really enjoying my new (to me) 405 mi16; one of the less desirable traits of the car, however, is its behavior on the freeway. i've noticed that, at 70 mph (112 kph), the engine is turning at 3,000 rpms. this is not a problem for the engine -- it has a 7,000 rpm redline -- but it can get a bit buzzy and tiresome after a while. i did some research to see if there was a way to swap a 6-speed transmission into this car to get a lower final gear for long trips. the short answer is, no. the long answer is, you can swap the 6-speed in but you won't get a lower final gear.

my car has the be3/5 manual transmission (boîte vitesse manuelle); the "5" indicates that is is a 5-speed. it looks like this:

be3%20transmission_zpspzieqeun.jpg

the 6 series cars -- the 206, 306, etc. -- came with six-speed be3 transmissions in some configurations (be3/6). the case is very similar for the two versions of the transmission, and i thought, why not swap in a 6-speed transmission?

it should be noted -- the early 90s front-wheel drive peugeots are a complete eco-system, just like the 504/604/505 models are. in the UK and europe, engine and/or transmission swaps between these cars (and citroëns of the same vintage) are common. when i researched this swap, i found out that it was possible but not helpful. specifically,

Q. Can I fit a 6 speed box from a 306 GTi6 or are there any other options for "leveling" out the torque from the MI16, when doing about 100mph its reving at nearly 5K.

A. Personally don't see a problem with this - the engine revs to 7500 so it's not under strain at 5k and the closer ratios are much better for A&B road work which is what the car is made for. Sounds like you have the 1.6 box though - you could swap to 1.9 which has longer gears. Don't forget the 6 speed isn't designed for a longer motorway gear, it just has another gear in the middle for even closer ratios!! You also need to be aware that you will lose some steering lock in the 205 as the GTi6 box has a longer final drive housing.

in the UK -- where this reference comes from -- A & B roads are highways and local routes, respectively, as opposed to M roads, which are limited-access freeways/interstates in US parlance (which is what i'm referring to).

so there it ends. i thought i'd post this in case anyone else had the same idea. so, 405 mi16 -- grand tourer, no; canyon carver, yes. :)

andré

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Couple things to consider for getting revs down would be to go up a size in tires, or better yet to go +1 or +2 in wheel size and bump up tire diameter.

For buzziness fresh motor mounts if possible can also help isolate the powertrain better - I did them on my 00R and it made a huge difference in NVH and even shift quality.

I also went +1 in rims, and higher aspect ratio 215-50-17 AS3 Michelin's and ride quality is world's better than 45 series tires and my speedo is even more acurate. :)

Rabin

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Couple things to consider for getting revs down would be to go up a size in tires, or better yet to go +1 or +2 in wheel size and bump up tire diameter.

For buzziness fresh motor mounts if possible can also help isolate the powertrain better - I did them on my 00R and it made a huge difference in NVH and even shift quality.

I also went +1 in rims, and higher aspect ratio 215-50-17 AS3 Michelin's and ride quality is world's better than 45 series tires and my speedo is even more acurate. :)

Rabin

i had thought about increasing the tire size -- i even did some research on speedometer correction -- but the problem is, the net effect of this would be to change my final drive ratio across the board, not just in top gear. that would certainly improve the long-distance cruising ability of the car, but it would change its personality around town (which i like a great deal :) ).

i am definitely going to change the mounts, i'm accumulating a full set these days. i'm also looking at some sound insulation; not as much as i put on the 505, but maybe some dynamat is a few key locations. lastly, the exhaust system (like the mounts) is original to the car so i'm sure there is some NVH improvement to be realized there, as well.

andré

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...

The 6-speed was only fitted on the 306 GTI/S16, to do the swap on a 405 you need to keep the stock clutch and fork or use an mk2 405 pull type clutch cable (found on 1.9 diesel turbo or 2.0 Mi16), the new pull type clutch can handle more torque but can also be a pita when you reattach the gearbox on the engine.

The differential is a little bit bigger so the left drive shaft can be too long but I don't now if it's an issue on the 405, anyway you can use a mk2 drive shaft, shorten the old one a little bit or put your old differential on the BE3/6. Talking about differential what about a Quaife torsen-like type? good value for money.

Finally you need the cable-type reverse gear control lever from a BE1 405 mk1:

http://www.miamistu.co.uk/pug/GB/405F/2/24A20A.HTM

Also there are two final ratios for the BE3/6: 19x75 and 19x77.

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If it's the entire GTI6 drivertain using the mk2 405 Mi16 2.0 cable will be the easiest.

I forgot to mention the steering issue, the left wheel will touch the gearbox so you need something like this on the steering rack:

688397201403101500081.jpg

482953201403101457191.jpg

Lenght depend of the car and also the wheels you use.

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My parts supplier in Getmany told me there is two cables showing in he's parts catalog and he's not sure which one I neeD.

Savo part # is 2150.G3 is the one up since 1992 BE3 XU10J4

But there is also 2150.E3 up to 1992, mark is "JAA yellow" and "1312mm"

Can you please confirm which one is the correct one?

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I will have a look but don't expect much ; the popular engine to swap is the less expensive and widely used XU10J2TE a.k.a TCT, a 2.0 8v turbo with 145-150hp stock and at least 180+ with minimal tuning. Much more torque for moving a 405 even with a stock engine:

XU10J2TEZ%20RGY.JPG?psid=1

You can use the 6 speed insert on the 405 gear knob, or directly the GTI6 gear knob as Peugeot just reused the 405 gear knob and BE1 sleeve with hurricane grey leather instead of black.

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  • 1 year later...

Coming soon (this year in Europe if not delayed) :

mB6.jpg01_MB6_3D_detouree_v2.jpg

This is the future 6 speed BE4 called MB6. Based on what we know about the current BE4 the BE3 bellhousing should bolt but a little bit of welding or maybe some creative thinking might be needed.

No torque ratings, gears or final drive ratios yet so wait and see.

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You're thinking about the ML6C that evolved from the ME/ML family:

http://www.peugeot-citroen-moteurs.fr/cache/docs_public/6666cd76f96956469e7be39d750cc7d9/44_fr-fr_fiche_publique.pdf

The ML6C swap may be possible but I'm not 100% sure you can find a stock bellhousing for a XU slanted to 30° as in the 405, the EW/DW on the 407 or 307 for exemple are 18,5° so you need to work aroud that to make it fit. Plus a lot of other things like Peugeot did for the 405 T16.

The MB6 swap, although not as easy as the BE3/6 one, looks promising as long as you doesn't have a 300hp engine.

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Now you've mentioned it, i'm starting to think about doing a 6 speed swap in my daily driver 605, the gearbox on it now has a twisted input shaft, and under hard load produces a vibration, any idea how much is the ML5T power rated for in Nm.

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340-370 n.m for the ML6C.

Just like for a 405 you will need cable selection and an hydraulic clutch. For the bellhousing... well there is your problem.

ML5T that exist for 30° XU:

0024.jpg

ML5C/ML6C:

0023.jpg

Nothing you can't overcome (as seen on your 405 project) but it's more complicated than picking the right parts and bolt them together like the 406 guys are doing.

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  • 5 months later...
Quote

New 6-speed manual gearbox

Compactness: same volume as the equivalent BVM5 with torque of 250 Nm

Production sites - Machining and Assembly: Valenciennes then in China from the end of 2018


Annual production potential: 500,000 in France


Series production launch: September 2017

Commercial launch in mid-2018 for the new Peugeot 308

Max. Torque (Nm) 250


GB Mass (with fluid and without coupling) 38 kg

Triple cone synchronisers in ½, simple cone in 3/4/5/6


Reverse blocked


Opening 5.7 to 6.7


8 different bridges


Length 380 mm


MTAC / MTRA:

PC: 2,220 kg / 3,300 kg
Light-Duty Vehicles: 2,320 kg / 3,200 kg

At last some specs!

So same torque rating, same mass and same compactness than the BE4 ; so far so good.

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Whe don't have ratios yet but with openings from 5.7 to 6.7 you may have some serious drop depending of the gearbox.

The old 1.6 HDI 120hp had a 6.7 opening with the MCM 6-speed, if you take the 6th out you got a 5 speed with 5.7 opening.

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  • 5 months later...

I have some gears and final drive ratios:

19x72, 19x75, 17x73, 17x77 and 17X86 for final drives. Crowns are BE4 parts.

11x38, 21x43, 31x40, 40x39, 46x35, 53x32 gears for the gasoline engine.

This is like the old BE "N" set of ratios with a shorter 2nd and 6th added, the Mi16 use the "P-PK": same as the "N" but with a longer 1st like the GTI.

If you don't want the 6th to be only an overdrive you need the short 17x86 final drive but then 1st and 2nd are really short.

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