505 15" alloy rims and Lug nuts

[Henpecked]

Hi all.

I've lurked for some time , but I have joined up because I'm just wanting to get advice that I have not found through reading and google search..

I have just purchased a set of 15" alloys from a business and they have also sent me 20 lug nuts in total, 16 lug nuts that I have never seen before, and also 4 "spare" of the well-known 2-piece "dome" type.

They sold me 5 of this type of 15" alloy wheels

and 16 of this type of Lug Nut

and I have never seen that type before, they are 2-piece with the washer captive but loose within a groove.

I have only seen this 2-piece "dome" type before - which they sent me 4 as "spares"

and I know of the aftermarket one piece that some have had made up.

these are the two 2-piece types that I now have in a photo together

my question is , should I return the 16 of the nuts on the right and ask for 16 of the type on the left, or should I just use them ?

I'm wanting to make sure I know what I'm talking about as I don't want to put the business off-side - I need/intend to use them again.

I've got one helpful private PM from this forum to say that the 16 on the right are NOT ok to use on these alloys - can anyone confirm this and perhaps tell me what rims they are supposed to be used on ?

thanks

[andrethx]

welcome! i see that you are from australia, are you a member of aussiefrogs? it's a great forum and you should join if you haven't already.

the "dome" type, as you refer to them, are more commonly called "ball seat" lug nuts. peugeots of this period use them for their alloy wheels, so the alloy wheels you got take the ball seat lug nuts.

the other lug nuts you received are 60-degree cone seat lug nuts (usually just called 60-degree taper); peugeots of this period used this type of lug nut for steel wheels.

if you use 60-degree tapers with your peugeot alloy wheels, they won't sit right and you could have problems down the road.

60-degree tapers are by far the most commonly used lug nuts. ball seat lug nuts are less common, but a few cars use them including hondas. most cars use 1.5 threaded lug nuts, but a few use 1.25 threaded lug nuts. almost no cars use ball seat lug nuts with 1.25 threading -- except peugeot.

everybody loves the 2-piece lug nuts, they made 2-piece ball-seat ones but they are hard to find now.

nice wheels by the way. i haven't seen any of the cromodora-made alloys here in the US.

andré

[Brian Holm - Parts for Peugeots]

To me the 2-piece nut on the right looks to be the nut used on the first early-eighties alloys, and should fit your wheels just fine. Later two-piece nuts ran the taper almost all the way down to the threads so they can be used on steel wheels also if necessary. The shouldered nuts do not seat properly on any Peugeot steel wheels I have seen. I don't know what spare wheel was used with the early alloys.

The problem with two piece nuts is that they are quite sensitive to overtightening. They should not be tightened to more than 60 ft/lbs. If severely overtightened the connection between nut and washer may be damaged, separating the washer from the nut, and sometimes leaving the washer securely stuck to the lug stud, locking the wheel on the vehicle.

Because I can't tell for sure from your photos what nut this is, and who knows what you have Down Under that I haven't seen before, i suggest checking for contact between nut and wheel with engineer's blue (Prussian Blue-dyed grease).

The one-piece nuts would be safer in any case because they will better tolerate overtightening, and would seat properly on a tapered-seat steel spare if needed.

[Henpecked]

After exchanging emails with Peugeot in England and France, and checking with the European manufacturer of what turned out to be one piece nuts 505 nuts with a 60deg face but which looked like the ball Nuts, its been made clear that these "washer" nuts are actually 60degree tapered nuts and are not suitable for the ball seated alloy wheels...

Wheel fasteners: Understanding the nuts and bolts of wheel clamping - Automotive Service Professional




Quote "the two most commonly found seat styles are the tapered (also called conical, or cone) pictured here on the left; and the radiused, or “ball” style. The two styles must never be mixed. The seat profile in the wheel dictates the nut or bolt seat style. If a tapered fastener is installed to a wheel that features radius seats (or if radius style fasteners are installed to a wheel that features tapered seats), proper clamping force cannot be achieved, and the fasteners are sure to loosen."


accordingly I have posted the 16 nuts back to the business I purchased the ball-seated 15" alloy wheels and nuts from, and enclosed sufficient funds to pay the return postage ( insured, registered and trackable) for 16 of the ball nuts.

Will post up how it all goes. Its costing me an additional $40 in postage both ways - but there you are.

I had started a thread here as well

http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/peugeot-forum/116370-505-alloy-nuts-two-types.html

[bill]

I have my doubts about the "the fasteners are sure to loosen." I have both stye wheels and nuts in my collection. I always use a torque wrench to about 70 pounds, and there has never been any indications that things are coming loose even when I mix and match them. Just my two cents..

Bill

[Henpecked]

I have my doubts about the "the fasteners are sure to loosen." I have both stye wheels and nuts in my collection. I always use a torque wrench to about 70 pounds, and there has never been any indications that things are coming loose even when I mix and match them. Just my two cents..

Bill

Yeah, Peugeot were more focused upon the resultant damage to the rims of using the wrong nuts.

One of the peugeot replies said that you could probably use the two-piece 60 degree nuts in an emergency, as theoretically the shaft of the nut should move within the washer and the non-matching faces ( 60 degree washer and ball wheel socket face) should just jam together and not actually be gouged along against each other as you tighten, so little immediate permanent damage should occur to the wheel, But if used all the time, theoretically the alloy wheel hole mating surface will be deformed by the more concentrated pressure upon it by the smaller surface area of the steel washer.

Even so I suppose it still would not actually loosen up while jammed together with enough force.

but hey - that's just what they said to a ignorant newbie like me, if it has actually worked well for you that's great.

[tulaweb]

One other point I've observed is that the one piece nuts weigh more than the original two piece ones. If you mix them on one wheel it is enough of a difference to throw the balance off and cause a noticeable vibration.

[Brian Holm - Parts for Peugeots]

You may mix them on the same wheel if you use two of each with the like ones opposite each other, not adjacent.

One condition under which wheels loosen is where you switch from alloy to steel or vice versa. The steel and alloy wheels have different patterns of contact with the hub. Dirt accumulates on the non-contact areas of the hub. If you don't clean the hub while switching wheel types the new wheel will seat partially on dirt. Within a few miles the dirt gets squeezed out, loosening the wheel. Maybe that just happens in Vermont where we switch back to alloys with summer tires after mud season.

Henpecked, I think you wasted your money swapping the early nuts for the late ones, unless you are planning to use the nuts on steel wheels as well as alloys. The early nuts are not 60 degree tapers as shown in the photo of two non-Peugeot nuts. Neither of those is safe on Peugeot alloys. There is a deep ball-head chromed Peugeot nut which resembles the alloy ball-head nut, but does not have enough surface area to seat properly on a Peugeot alloy wheel. It was used in the early eighties on cars with full-wheel covers, with four holes to expose the lugnuts, that are held on by clipping onto a ridge on the nut.

Sorry, the pictures of wheelcover and nuts I tried to post here are not accepted.

The nut on the left is not safe on Peugeot alloys. It goes on steel wheels with the wheelcover above.

[Henpecked]

Henpecked, I think you wasted your money swapping the early nuts for the late ones, unless you are planning to use the nuts on steel wheels as well as alloys. The early nuts are not 60 degree tapers as shown in the photo of two non-Peugeot nuts. Neither of those is safe on Peugeot alloys.

The nut on the left is not safe on Peugeot alloys. It goes on steel wheels with the wheelcover above.

Not quite following this Brian, sorry.

Re the two non-peugeot nuts shown in my last post - the nut on the left is a 60 taper nut , the one on the right is a ball or radius nut. They are not both 60 degree nuts

I've thought I was clear in saying I was advised that the early 14" and 15" alloys wheels for 505's DID require ball or radius nuts and NOT 60 degree cone or tapered nuts.

I am exchanging the set of 60 degree tapered or cone nuts for the ball or radius lug nuts as I only have 80's alloy wheels, I think that is what you are also saying .

these are the later ( 1992+) 15" alloys with covers (that I don't have) , I assume you were not referring to these are they are not '80s wheel. ? It has been suggested to me that these have hardened steel seats and are cone or 60 degree seats that the cone two peice nuts I am sending back may fit. - But who knows ?

You are not referring to these nuts off a 405 are you ?

Because I neither have them not have any idea what type of wheel they would fit.

Or these for a 604 steel wheel ?

[Brian Holm - Parts for Peugeots]

In your original post, the fifth photo shows the nuts you got 16 of on the right , and the nuts you prefer on the left. Both of those nuts are correct for all 505 alloy wheels. The contact area with the alloy wheel is the outer surface of the nut face. The nut on the left has an inner tapered surface also, which makes contact with the seat on a tapered-seat steel rim, as used on '82-on 505 sedans and all 504 and 505 wagons. (Speaking of US Models here--I don't know the down under situation.) The nut on the right will not seat properly on a steel wheel, but is correct for alloys.

The cowboy hat nuts shown in your latest pictures are for 403, 404, 504 and pre-'82 505 sedans with steel wheels which do not have a tapered seat, but a 12mm hole in the curved surface of the wheel to which the captive washers on the nuts conform. There are also deeper plated acorn nuts in that style.

The nuts which may be confused with alloy nuts because they are deep acorn nuts with a ball end are pictured alongside an alloy lugnut. http://tinyurl.com/mqndttx

The hubcaps look a lot like the later 15" ones with the fake nuts showing. 15" on the left http://tinyurl.com/pg7yeye

I am using links here because the site does not like the image extensions on urls copied from google images.

The late 15" alloy in your photo replaced the TRX-lookalikes in '87 with the arrival of the V6-Turbo/ABS suspension, which will not accept the early wheels on the front because of caliper interference. They take the same lugnuts as the early wheels. There are no inserts.

[Henpecked]

In your original post, the fifth photo shows the nuts you got 16 of on the right , and the nuts you prefer on the left. Both of those nuts are correct for all 505 alloy wheels. The contact area with the alloy wheel is the outer surface of the nut face. The nut on the left has an inner tapered surface also, which makes contact with the seat on a tapered-seat steel rim, as used on '82-on 505 sedans and all 504 and 505 wagons. (Speaking of US Models here--I don't know the down under situation.) The nut on the right will not seat properly on a steel wheel, but is correct for alloys.

Thanks for Posting Brian

That is very interesting information re the radius or ball nuts being good for 60 degree steel wheels and radius alloy wheels, in checking them it does seem that their outer " wider" circumference may be flat at the required 60 degree angle, I don't have any steel wheels here atm to check them on as they were sold when I got the alloys..

But I'm not certain that what I've highlighted in your quote is correct , as the nuts I sent back clearly have 60 degree flat surfaces in contact with the wheel, they are not radiused anywhere. So are you saying that the ball or radiused surfaces in the Peugeot alloy wheels will safely accept this style of 60 degree tapered or cone nuts - and that the 60 degree tapered steel wheels will not ?

also the short urls you have posted, just gives a page view of masses of Google search results, actually using google to then go to the original pages of the particular image(s) you want and getting their original location codes will work.

[Brian Holm - Parts for Peugeots]

I have not measured the seat angles on the nuts, but the seat area on the steel wheels is much closer to the stud than the seat on the alloys. The first nuts you got did not have a taper near the stud where the nut would contact the steel wheel, but did have it out farther where they would seat on the alloy for which they were designed. The later nuts have a taper in both places so they will seat on either wheel type.

The nut on the left here: http://www.indysworld.com/80s/general/wheels/pugnuts.jpg is only usable on steel wheels, as the taper is close to the stud only. It was used in early 80s with push-on full wheel covers. The nut on the right fits alloy, or steel with a tapered seat.

I have never seen a non-Peugeot nut that will properly seat on a 505 alloy, except for some copies made by a fellow on a Subaru site for early Subarus running Peugeot alloys.