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505 Wagon 5sp swap discussion


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Does anyone know how exactly George Bostic's shop mounted that transmission?

Btw, George died of a heart attack two or three weeks ago. Sue would probably appreciate a call or note.

Joe G. (JunktionFET on this forum) posted the news about George Bostic in the facebook group right after it happened. sorry i never got got to meet George.

Joe worked for George years ago, pretty sure he knows how the conversion was done...

andré

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I just asked Joe and he only remembered seeing a 504 wagon hack job come into the shop, but didn't have any info on a 505 wagon 5sp swap.

One of the guys swapped in a 5sp into a later 505 TD wagon and it sounded easier to do if it had the 4sp auto.

Ive got an '86 5sp donor sedan, an extra 4hp22 rear tranny support, and the complete '86 wagon so I'll just have to document how it goes. :)

I wish I could save both TD's, but need a lot of work so the wagon wins.

Rabin

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My proposed adaptation method is this:

Use the 4HP mount, DS, and TT by extending the 10-5 tail housing and ujoint. For the extension I think that the requisite thickness cut from the tail housing of a BA7 or 3HP, containing the bearing and seal, machined to fit the 10-5 with the seal removed to let oil back into the extension bearing would work. The ujoint front yoke would need extending by welding on an equivalent length from another ujoint, precisely positioned and machined. You would need extended length bolts for the housing and ujoint too, but I think that would do it.

My main concern with this adaptation is its strength. Perhaps the adapter should be welded to the tail housing.

All thoughts appreciated!

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Hi Brian,

Do you happen to know how long the spacer would have to be?

Without having the cars available I can only guess, but I wonder if the engine itself could be moved back on modified engine mounts?

I think it was the V6 cross member that moves the V6 further back, so that might also have potential.

Another comment is that a number of people have commented that the u-joint doesn't actually need to be bolted on. This opens up upgrading the u-joint to something stronger like Stewart has done with his 404.

Rabin

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I can't get to my measurements or my driveshafts right now, but the difference looks like around 35mm from memory. Moving the engine back is attractive for weight distribution reasons as well, but the firewall insulation would have to go and probably the heater fan.

I have never known the reason for bolting the u-joint either. Doesn't mean there isn't one--maybe the seal would wear faster on a sliding surface, or maybe it could bind inside the joint by sliding back too far onto the driveshaft..

What did Stewart do with his 404?

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It just occured to me that the best "plan B" method to account for the shorter 5sp will be to extend the torque tube and drive shaft. (Plan A being there's enough room to move engine back 35mm)

Shouldn't be more than $2-300 to extend the torque tube and driveshaft, especially if the sedan parts are used for the added length. (Cut wagon ends at diff, then cut 35mm longer parts off sedan parts, and have them welded to wagon parts.

It'd be easier to attach longer pieces than to extend just the wagon parts.

Rabin

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You can just use the longer BA7/3HP22 wagon torque tube and drive shaft if you use a BA7-5 transmission.. But the BA10-5 won't fit in the mount that works with the longer drive parts. It will work with the 4HP22 mount, which is further back. Moving that mount forward is another possibility, which is complicated by the floor not being uniform in that area. Come Spring I will flip a wagon over and see how moving the mount forward would conform to the floor. I have just never done that. That could be simpler than extending the transmission.

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I only have 4HP22 wagon and parts, and I only have the 5sp sedan so I'll need to find a way to make it work.

If the BA7 / 3SP drive shaft will work with the BA10 and be the right length then I'll have to find one and then figure the mount out after.

Fabricating the tranny mount is the easy part if I can find the right combo of bolt in parts.

Rabin

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Both the sedan and wagon are complete running cars, plus an additional parts from N9TE turbo wagons: torque tube & driveshaft, 2x tranmissions w/u-joints, and a spare rear transmission mount.

Rabin

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Not to get this thread off track - but I was talking to an 86 Wagon 2.5L Diesel owner who had done the 5 speed swap. He said the RPMs were now 3000 just to do 70MPH on the highway - and the diesel would have been happy with much lower RPM.

This would imply that the 5th gear in his manual was not as much of an overdrive as the 4th gear in his auto. He was thinking that he needed to find a lower numerical gear set for the wagon solid rear axle - since that axle is unique to the wagon - I bet those would be hard parts to find.

I assume all the turbo fours and V6s used a higher numerical gear set than his wagon currently has - and those would all be independent rears - so the parts probably don't interchange.

Any thoughts on this?

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If I did the correct research - I've answered my own question, but my answer doesn't offer any explanation for usually high engine RPMs (for a diesel) after a 5 speed swap.

The 4th gear (overdrive) in a ZF Automatic should be 0.73

The 5th gear (OD) in a BA 10/5 should be 0.79.

The BA 10/5 info came from a Jeep website - as AMC used that trans behind the 256 cu in Inline 6 from 87 to 89. (And the Jeep guys hate it BTW - so they might be a source for cheap BA 10/5s) if all the splines and everything match up to the 505... seems doubtful.

So the ZF Auto would give you a tad lower RPMs at 70MPH but not a lot lower. I did see a post about rear end gearing that said the Wagons have a 4.22/1 rear gear in them vs the Sedans with 4.11/1 gear - so the Wagons would turn a bit more RPM on the highway, but that would be true with either the ZF Auto or the 5 Speed.

Anybody know what RPM a 5 speed Turbo Diesel wagon turns at 70MPH - assuming stock wheels & tires?

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Thanks Dave - I think I read in your restoration thread that you get about 28-30 mpg on the highway?

Does 3000 RPM seem too fast for the XD3T? Another way of asking the same thing - does it seem like you could still pull hills OK in 5th gear if the rear axle was a lower numerical ratio?

Not sure there any other axle ratios available for the wagon solid axle anyway - unless you can somehow put the Sedan independent rear under a wagon...

thanks

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If memory serves my TD wagon is just under 3000 rpm at 120KPH/72MPH.

I'd have to verify the transmission ratios in the FSM - the jeep ratios wouldn't be a good source on their own.

Gear sets can swap between sedans and wagons - would be much easier to do then putting the IRS under the wagon - but I'd LOVE to be able to figure out a way to do an IRS swap as well.

One possibility for lowering rpm is larger tires - acceleration would suffer, but you could get decent lowering of rpm with 215-75-15's or similar tall tire if you modified the front struts. (Assuming you wanted a square set up.) I personally think it would be totally fine, and it'd have plenty of torque to run higher gearing.

Rabin

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Thanks Rabin

Is there an online link to an FSM for an 86 TD Wagon ? I agree - the Jeep version of the BA 10/5 might very well be geared differently than a mid-80s Diesel Station wagon... :)

Larger rear tires are certainly an option - any idea what tire size came stock on the 86 TD wagon? Were they 14s or 15s? The front strut mods kinda scare me - only because I imagine myself doing some kind of redneck "tire clearancing" with an angle grinder on the spring/strut... :)

Jim

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Does 3000 RPM seem too fast for the XD3T? Another way of asking the same thing - does it seem like you could still pull hills OK in 5th gear if the rear axle was a lower numerical ratio?

I don't think 3000 RPM is too fast. I'm not sure how much you could go with the gear ratio and still be comfortable on hills etc. I don't find myself downshifting on most hills on the highway, but on steeper mountain roads I.m not staying in 5th as it is.

Larger rear tires are certainly an option - any idea what tire size came stock on the 86 TD wagon? Were they 14s or 15s? The front strut mods kinda scare me - only because I imagine myself doing some kind of redneck "tire clearancing" with an angle grinder on the spring/strut... :)

I have no idea if the wagon had 14s, 15s or options for either. I recall a similar discussion here a few years ago in the context that my S sedan has 14 inch wheels and my STI parts car has 15. People were advising me to switch the 15s from the parts car to the one I drive. I was concerned that would mess with my speedometer and my gear ratio. Someone pointed out that the tires standard on the 14 and 15 inch wheels had almost exactly the same outside circumference. When I looked it up I found there was a difference of something like one revolution per mile, which is insignificant. Of course other tires you could fit on those wheels would make a difference.

Although

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'86 TD wagons have a 4.11 dif, same as N9T [and XN6 with 3HP22].

84-85 TD wagons use 3.46 with 3HP. XN6 w/5-speed uses 3.89. Those are all of the taller wagon gears.There are seven different taller sedan gearsets. In Africa sedan gearsets are used in wagons with a modification, the particulars of which I don't remember.

The Jeep BA10-5 uses a number of internal parts that interchange with some of ours, but not bellhousing, tail housing, or input and output shafts. The part numbers are all different, and I don't know of an interchangew or conversion list.

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Yep - that was the one. Seller sent me a text yesterday saying both sedan and wagon were sold. Think he sold both for $1000. I was only interested in the 505 Wagon.

Looking in the Classifieds, there is a 505 Diesel Sedan in Texas - but he wants $5500 - way too rich for me. And it's Auto...

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