SSB Posted November 26, 2013 Report Share Posted November 26, 2013 Thought you guys would like this info http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/f1s-hybrid-turbos-are-awesome-and-you-want-one-in-you-1464497196 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted November 27, 2013 Report Share Posted November 27, 2013 That is pure awesome! I'll be curious to see how long it takes for this technology to trickle down into the aftermarket. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted December 4, 2013 Report Share Posted December 4, 2013 Yep, just the ticket. BMW used an air blower motor against the exducer to reduce off idle lag, I read. Have you seen the belt driven turbo shaped superchargers? That hybrid idea is great news! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted December 4, 2013 Report Share Posted December 4, 2013 I've often considered replacing the turbo on the N9TE with a Rotrex supercharger as I really like the idea of the linear power curve they offer. It won't have the same power under the curve as a turbo, but driveabilty would be better since power delivery would be linear like a NA motor... Cost was the biggest issue, and with the latest gen turbos that spool quicker and flow more air - staying turbo one out. This new tech of using electric motors to not only harvest waste energy, but also help spool is pure genius. I've never heard of a motor that could do the kind of RPM that the turbo shafts see, so I'm very curious to see how it actually works, as well as how much weight it adds to the rotational mass of the assembly. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSB Posted December 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2013 I'll paste these replies here as I didn't realize that replying on the cell phone didn't wind up here. Without further a due; SSB Ya, turbos spin up to 275k RPM so therein would be the cost issue. Formula 1 can afford it and I'm sure the next Ferrarogini Turbo will have one. The parasitic losses of mechanically driven superchargers cancel my interest in them. I did see that the N9TE was putting out 235 ft/lbs at like 4800 RPM and subsequently raced Red at what was low RPM as compared with what my competitors were doing. So the turbo already in place is designed to respond quickly. The biggest im[improvement (IMHO) would be using the ceramic impeller wheel (as used in the Buick GNX). I held one in my hand once and it weighed about nothing but the air filtration becomes critical as the wheel is easily damaged. Rabin The turbo I'm planning to use on my build is the new Borg Warner EFR turbos, they have a billet aluminum compressor wheel, and the turbine wheel is described here: The most exciting technology in the EFR package is the low inertia Gamma-Ti Turbine Wheel. All EFR turbine wheels are made from a high performance lightweight material known as "Gamma-Ti". This material innovation is not quite metal and not quite ceramic, it is considered an "inter-metallic compound". Comprised primarily of titanium and aluminum (titanium-aluminide) with other trace elements, the Gamma-Ti turbine wheel is so light it's nearly the same weight as the forged-machined aluminum compressor wheel. This approximate 1:1 turbine:compressor weight ratio dramatically improves turbo response. Further strength benefits are realized at high temperatures as Gamma-Ti gains ductility and exhibits very high stiffness-to-weight ratios with good vibration damping characteristics. The EFR debut marks the first time Gamma-Ti has been offered to the public across a range of turbine wheel sizes and at an enthusiast's price point. The EFR series has built in BOV, and an internal wastegate - so that's the plan so far. They just came out with a standard housing with now wastegate which would be my preference for running an external wastegate, but I decided to run a modified stock exhaust manifold as my power numbers are still fairly modest and I value quicker spool over peak power anyway. (Log manifolds spool fastest) SSB The use of a ceramic wheel is for the cold side (compressor). The "composite" hot wheel is usually (I doubt I'll spell this right) enkanel and beryllium in a Garrett. While titanium and aluminum would be lighter one has to wonder why Garrett wouldn't use it. The lighter weight would be a big improvement in response time. Even then, however the profile of the blades is key to both response and flow (bigger reaction blades causes choke flow) Rabin Blade design is where the billet milled wheels are just absolutely art... Cast wheels can't duplicate the design, nor can they be as thin and strong as the billet blades... I won't be buying for a while yet so I'll revisit my EFR choice when the time comes, but the superior design of the built in WG, and integrated BOV make it a nice choice, and it was superior to the GTX2863R that was my first choice initially. Regardless - the new spec T25 turbos will boost faster and flow more than the old journal bearing turbos... I just car wait to see by how much... Btw - I only got your reply as it goes to the webmaster e-mail - so none of the discussion is on the forum. SSB I thought I had started a thread as the subject would be of any interest to many. Okay, maybe only a few.If I were going to improve the turbo system I would simply change it over to the motronic system with the electronic waste gate control. However, if I were going to take it to a greater degree I would see if I could put in the system the GM Saab develop as it used the spark plug as the knock sensor which makes a tremendous amount of sense because that's where the detonation is and they were able to reduce the size of the motor and increase the amount of power. Brilliant really. Rabin Megasquirt v3 was supposed to have the same feature using the plugs as sensors, but it got delayed a long time and I since with VEMS stand alone. While the plugs as det sensors sounds great, there was concerns early on about how fast the reaction of the system was. I went with VEMS because not only can it do sequential injection for better low speed driveability, if you can set up a cam position sensor you can optimise injection pulse on each injector. Speed density tuning with MAP, a good WBO2 sensor, and an EGT sensor should get me very accurate tuning so that nothing is left on the table. Nick Cota has my set up now as he's buddies with the NA distributor of the systems and the plan was to install it on the hill climb car. When I got it back it'd already have a dyno tuned map for he N9TE on it.Post was started, but discussion we're having is via e-mail so no one will comment any further on the thread. SSB It would seem to me that if there was an issue of response time with a knock sensor located in the combustion chamber than it was an issue of being too quick? It was pretty simple actually. They made a ring that went over the spark plugs threads and screwed the plugs into the head. The only thing different with the plug was that the threaded area was longer. I've always envisioned a spark plug/injector combination to retrofit into any engine. That way the fuel isn't beat back out of the intake by the intake valve. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted December 7, 2013 Report Share Posted December 7, 2013 SAAB had what they termed as a direct ignition which could sense if the cylinder knocked. Australia got it around 1989 /1991. It was great . They had the 9000 model with a 2.3 B style engine. 150hp at 5600. I was leading hand at a dealership back then and got these things to drive on weekends. A very sweet thing and they were almost as quick and were much more flexible than the 2l turbo. Then they turboed this engine. Oooh yeah! A few of these Saab sleepers would blow most of our cars here, into the wind with people wondering what was that funny little car! Is that it disappearing into the distance? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Direct_Ignition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSB Posted December 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2013 Reading Ions to predict cam timing and detonation. Brilliant. They had one other trick where instead of using a ground on the end of the spark plug, they put a ground on top of the piston. When the piston came to TDC, it automatically fired. Timing of the firing was controlled through varying the voltage. Not sure whether that came to production or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted December 7, 2013 Report Share Posted December 7, 2013 I remember when it came out SAAB could boast that the air going into the motor could actually be cleaned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSB Posted December 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2013 I remember reading that a Saab in London was putting out better air than what it was taking in. Funny that Sulfur Dioxide isn't included as an emission because cars really stink now days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted December 8, 2013 Report Share Posted December 8, 2013 Yes! They told us that a Saab in Mexico city emitted better quality air than that it ingested. I don't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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