Comp Cams Dynosim 5

[Stewart]

Has anyone here used or seen this software from Comp Cams? It reads as though it could be worthwhile for better management of the Peugeot engines.

http://www.amazon.com/automotive/dp/B003HGFOLO

[Bean]

I did a little research into engine simulation software, and the consensus I found I that they are really quite accurate, but accuracy comes from how detailed and accurate your data input is.

I didn't / don't have the time yet to really be able to sit down and model all the engine data, but I was also unable to find out how to input / determine how you would put in info about the style of combustion chamber, and the spark plug location. Not sure how much it would even affect results, but it was still something I couldn't rule out.

If its something you'd look into I'd chip in on whatever package you liked best so that it was easier for you to test it out... If it proved accurate for your builds we could see what it predicted for the N9TEA.

Rabin

[Stewart]

Thanks Bean! I found a bit on it and it does hemi head with centre plug and quite a few others. The main thing I'm interested in is a reasonable prediction of BEMP and from there the Fuel requirement and to a lesser degree, ignition points under boost. My ignition curve predictions are proving spot on but if it can be confirmed in a program like Dynosim, can help the confidence level!

It's incredibly complex to make a fuel map from scratch, the only safe way under boost, is to try and get it close and then use Auto Tune for the fuel, in the ECU software. I've spent time recently Auto tuning from -100 kpa to 90 kpa (13 psi) and there has been a few knocks from pre ignition before the fuel curve settled into itself. The map itself, now looks like a kids doodle of triangles. Damn smooth engine, though. Absolutely worth the effort. The problem forward lays in the high boosted areas. You can imagine the surge the thing has now without much throttle, so trying to tune higher means not a lot of time to get the adjusted fuel tuned in. Over the next 2 weeks I plan to go to 15 psi max and to try and get the map done . That might just be enough. my Link G3 can run closed loop Lambda where if using an Innovate Wideband with it one can run closed loop fuel control at whatever mixture you want and it will tickle the fuel map within 10 to 15% to get it perfect for the conditions.

I've bent the teeth in the old BA7/4 on 1st and 2nd, so another box has to done before too long as well.

Did someone say a hobby is good for relaxing???????

[Bean]

Hobbies help keep the mind sharp! Much like crossword puzzles or Sudoku - but WAY more time, money, sweat, blood and tears...

I assume a BA10 conversion is in your future - or do you have plans to blueprint the BA7 to see if you can get it to hold the power? http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/839/Building-the-Bulletproof-Transmission-Secrets-of-the-Pros.aspx

My kids need a few years before I even have a hope in hell of having enough time to really play with tuning a car. Not complaining at all as I LOVE it, but at least I have a plan for when they're too cool to hang out with their parents!

Rabin

[Stewart]

Yes well, I'm on the other end of the kids stuff. My youngest is 15. Quite liberating! I have another couple of poor little BA7/4's. For convenience I'm going to "blueprint" the one on the shelf I can see! The Ba7's and 10's had a very large clearance between the gears on the mainshaft. If that clearance is reduced by shimming to 0.2mm ( which is the spec for the C2 and C3 boxes in 404 and back, ) the box becomes a sweet, quiet item. I didn't bother with the last box, so now I have bent teeth! Then the plan was to check out those oils you suggest and put the old thing back together. I found a chap by chance, here in Brisbane who races as well as dyno's with the Link G3 so a power run graph, once the 404 stops whimpering, is on the "to do" list shortly.

On the other hand, I just happen to have, as luck would have it, a rebuilt 3hp auto for the 404, sitting next to the BA7/4. Column change auto selector stuff, too. I'll give myself some time to think before doing anything. The gearbox lasted 11000 miles of getting hiding, but they don't grow on trees any more and an auto would be damn fine for the engine..

What do you reckon of an Automatique Presse Injection 404?

In between all this I'm snowed under with work as well. Heeeeeelllpp!

[Stewart]

Bean,

I purchased the Dynosim 5 and have been using for the last month. It seems useful. I'm rebuilding , of all things, a Toyota S800 engine at the moment and after some time with the Dynosim we should be looking at increasing torque and power with the data, from 49 hp to 59 ! It's a twin cyl. 800cc horizontally opposed thing.

If you'd like to post some valve sizes, type of turbo and where you'd like torque in the revs we should be able to get you an engine layout to ponder.

Let me know if you want a cammy note or dead smooth idle and we can sort that too. I can say that a 260 deg at running clearance cam, has been the common max torque through the rev range number. That will idle like a watch.

[Bean]

Funny you should post this now - I've been researching options to change the block head bolt holes to M12 x 1.50 so that I can run ARP head bolts properly.

If you can link me to, or list the specifics you need I'll try to get you the numbers in the next few days.

Design goal for the engine is super fast response, so whatever allows the engine to build boost as early as possible while still having decent lungs to push 6000 RPM Is what I'd like.

Turbo of choice right now is the Borg Warner EFR 6258 (or 6758 if spool isn't sacrificed too much).

Rabin

[Stewart]

OK,

In and Ex valve head size.

Cam numbers and lift. We can run a big test to find a better grind.

We can run the above tests to get best bore and stroke combo as well.

Is there a comparative Garrett turbo number? I can type in the borgwarner data if not.

Throttle size .

Tell me where the major range of area under the torque curve is needed.

I think I have the rest here.

The map for BW looks like 300 hp at 16 psi or so. and the air flow before that boost is high too, so torque should be quite high..

I have my engine going to 7200 with a cheaper turbo than that with 14 psi at 3500.

With a smaller cam timing it will come in earlier. It does make 1 to 2 psi from 1500 to 2500 then it starts a nice boost from there so the BW and slightly less duration bumpstick will get the Bean Machine nice and Mean! (At 100 kph is 3200 at the moment and too easy to speed so hopefully a diff change will reduce the speeding fine risk.)

Cool beans, Bean??????

[Bean]

Comparative Garrett would be a GTX2860 / 2863 / 2867... The billet compressor wheel versions with ball bearing centre sections.

Throttle size is 75mm.

Boost I want building sub 2000 rpm, and I'll comprise just a little of the spool time if a bigger turbo gives a fatter mid range power band...

I'm not after peak power, and figure a higher compression engine with modest boost targets will yield the best street beast.

I just contacted Zac from ARP, and I'll be grabbing some details off the engine in the next couple days - so I'll make sure to get you the valve sizes. I'll have to find stock cam specs for you as well. Curious what you think about using SOHC Volvo B23FT cam specs in the SIM to see what kind of results it spits out?

Rabin

[Stewart]

Bean, Old Chap,

I suspect throttle size of 75mm is not what you need if you want low rpm torque in a street engine but, we will see ! Are we doing the sim considering the std inlet and exhaust manifolds?

Valve head diameters is the important bit for the sim. I suspect from what I've seen in images here that the head ports are quite adequate std and, a little work to get them even with each other is all we need. If you could send or post an image of your cylinder head face with the head gasket sitting on the head face will give me a very good start!

I just check the sim and want to reconfirm with you,

1/bore and stroke and rod length

2/ Piston pin offset.

3/ Cam timing

4/Valve sizes.

5/ Image of combustion camber

we will get close with that stuff.

Stew

[Bean]

Not married to 75mm - but: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4690902

This was the only reason I chose 75mm. I figure the throttle response on tip in could be mitigated with a nicely designed throttle cable cam so that throttle opening would be nicely controlled.

Initial build I was wanting to open bore up to 94mm so engine displacement was going to be 2.5L+, but now that it can be simulated I'm curious what the stock bore and stroke yield, and then how boring to 94mm and or stroking it calculate out.

Intake will have a relocated throttle body, but the same port runners and such, and basic port matching and mild polish to smooth flow. Exhaust manifold will just be modified to a T25 flange, and if clean enough I'd like to get it ceramic coated.

I'll get the other numbers in the next few days, but it may be harder to get the gasket on the head pic, but I'll see what I can do.

Rabin

[Stewart]

I've entered some data. I've used a 45mm inlet and 41mm exhaust just to get started. The real numbers can go in as we get further in. 807000 calculations for cam , bore and stroke combos. Cool.

[Stewart]

OK Bean, I'm sitting here in a haze of info, hot tea and empty stomach! ( I'm filling in time preparing my insides for tomorrows medical procedure so if somethings don't quite make sense I'll fix it in 48 hrs!
I started with 45mm inlet and 38mm ex valves a std block then your 94mm bore on std stroke. Plus many others but in the end cost still is a consideration as well as ease of machining and torque difference, etc. I also did the calcs on the 3" and 2.25" throttles for you. The camshaft is my spec in the end but I'll run the sim to check for a slight benefit .
The process has been fun and the cam will work for non turbo app ( Good to check this as this will ensure quick spool on the right turbo) I work on getting BMEP Brake Mean Effective Pressure to 150 psi as early as possible then from that to 200 psi which is the secret for n/a engine torque in our relatively heavy cars. I used a Turbo-Garrett-GT2860R-60-55 profile with 62mm turbine size and .48 A/R turbine housing ratio from the Garrett site and the boost didn't come on as well as the old Garrett Super T40E 46. I think there are better choices but don't have as much experience as you with the many types. What would be an updated turbo for the std unit, for instance? That might be worth plugging in!

Bore and stroke 94mm x 81mm. Comp 9.5 static. Max boost 16 psi. Boost starting spool at 2000 and 16 psi at 3500.
188 hp at 3000 and 297 at 5000. Just running a tweek on cam profile within 2 deg on ramps for best torque under the curve between 1500 to 5500 now.

[Stewart]

Ever checked out the VNT turbo numbers, Bean.? That might be an even better option. I'll figure out how to send you the final data sheets but it's looking good with the T04E at .48 A/R on the turbine for, an engine 94mm x 81 at 9.5 comp and 16 psi max boost and my cam,

Boost to start now at 1500 for 16 psi at 3000.

HP 297 at 5500.

Torque, 392 ftlb at 3000.

Your 3" throttle. ( 2.25" throttle gives 289 hp and 390 ft lb) in theory!

Once you can get your spec on your engine to me it will plug in with a few small changes.

[Bean]

Trouble with VNT's are that they are really best with a proper electronic control device controlling them... I've also read that while they've worked great in diesels, the higher heat o the gas motors make VNT's much more troublesome.

I'm a little shocked that the TO4 is spooling that nice, I have a T3/T4 hybrid turbo that was custom built with the proprietary Peugeot exhaust housing, and while its an improvement over stock - the latest T25 form turbos from Garrett and Borg Warner blow it into the weeds.

These new turbos are spooling at least 500 rpm sooner, and they've got way higher top end power too.

From previous research, I'd predict boost starting at least by 1500, but I think 16 psi would be much sooner at 2300 - 2500 rpm. I'd predict max boost would be at 3000 a 3300, and it should be able to flow 20 psi to 6000 rpm.

With the engine spec listed, I think the EFR6758 would be my turbo of choice as the spool almost as fast as he smaller 6258, but they have much longer legs and make more top end to boot. Pretty sure BW's numbers are based on wheel mm's - so try 62mm vs 67mm for the turbine wheels.

These numbers are EXACTLY the numbers I was hoping to make BTW... . Thanks very much for putting the time into these simulations.

Rabin

[Stewart]

Cool. My el cheapo T3/T4 is spooling at 1500 . Only 1 psi but I'm also running a bigger cam. Heaven only knows how my engine will go with 18. I'm at 12 by 3000 and am holding it there till 7200 at the moment, with ecu control over wastegate and it is almost enough for this old bloke. Addictive too!

There has been plenty of sypherin' and thinkin' gone into the Bean Machine mock up. I'm glad you feel we are on the right track.

[Bean]

Hi Stewart,

I hope the medical procedures you were preparing for went off well and you were deemed fit as a fiddle. Finally had some time to nail some numbers - cam specs courtesy of Johnny and V-M from another post.

1/bore and stroke and rod length

- 91.7mm bore; 81.6mm stroke

- Centre to centre I assume?

2/ Piston pin offset

- Can you explain this in detail? Is it pin height? (Centre of pin to piston top?)

3/ Cam timing

- Diagram (stock N9T cam):

AOA: 19°34

RFA: 56°26

AOE: 55°10

RFE: 12°50

The duration of the intake lobe is AOA + RFA + 180 = 254 degrees, and the duration of the exhaust lobe is AOE + RFE+ 180 = 248 degrees.

Overlap is AOA +RFE = 32.4 degrees.

6.4mm lift

4/Valve sizes.

- 43mm intake; 38mm exhaust

5/ Image of combustion camber

- see attached of the stock combustion chamber. I also have a Danielson head that is the same, but the spark plug is a 10mm plug the is flush to 'bowl' instead of shrouded like the stock one here shows.

[Stewart]

That info is good, mate. Last week was full on. Got the all clear for now which means I get to go and get the hernia fixed. ( joy of joys!)

The dynosim numbers are interesting and it is very tempting to chop and change things. Then I get lost from where I started. It has a save function thank goodness. Anyway , now we are all in a better place we'll get these numbers up for you to ponder.

6.4mm lift is at the cam. Is the rocker ratio 1:1.5 and don't worry about pin offset it doesn't change the figures much. What pin offset is the gudgeon pin centre off the centre of the piston. Usually 1.5 to 2 mm.

Is this engine going into a manual or auto?

[Bean]

5-sp manual - BA-10/5...

I'm curious how much bang the 94mm pistons bring vs stroking the engine. Stroking will be big $$ as I'd need to offset grind the crank and re-balance it - but I was thinking big displacement and lower redline (>= 6000 RPM). For some reason I thought bore was 92.5mm - but I think that is a Ford bore that someone else used in the N9T** engines. Do you think 92.5mm would be better?

6.4mm should be at the cam, I'll take a look at the rockers and advise what ratio they are. I also have some used pistons with connecting rods attached, so did you want the center to center length of the rods?

Something else to mention is that I'll also be using V-M's idea to modify the cam sprocket such that you can adjust the cam timing precisely...

And here's a pic of the Danielson head with the 10mm spark plug with no recess.

Rabin

[Stewart]

Bean,

The program has the spec for the conrod and bore and stroke for a 505 2.2 which has a bore and stroke of. 91.7 x 81.5. That would be the 505 turbo I reckon.

Those exhaust valves look oversize in the Dani. Beautiful looking thing.

[Bean]

The Dani head I have is on an assembled motor so I can't verify for sure, but I'm 99% certain it has the stock valves. They only redid the spark plug.

I was doing some reading and the latest generation of Volvo I5 2.5L high pressure turbo engines use plugs that are 6mm longer. Previous generation uses the same spec plug as the N9T**, so my thoughts for modifying the stock head is to weld up the chamber, and extend the plug threads to use the new Volvo plugs.

It would be much easier to do, and should be fairly close to the Dani head, while allowing you to un-shroud the plug.

Rabin

[Bean]

Curious what you think of the combustion chamber? You say its a beautiful thing, but I was curious if you had any suggestions or comments on the bowl shape.

I've read that there are a lot of gains to be had by in shrouding the valve seats, but these look pretty good. August had the stock head ported and polished, but even the stock head flowed really well.

Rabin

[Stewart]

Those valves don't look shrouded to me, sitting here on my PC in Australia, . "Shrouding" is a term used to suggest the gas or media flow is impeded in some way by the chamber shape. On the other side of that thinking, street engines need to start and idle in the cold and conform to emission needs as well. Not such a bad thing in any climate!

Here are a couple of numbers that are looking good for us, I did the calcs using a TO4E60 with a turbine of 62mm and turbine a/r of 0.48.

91.7mm x 81.5mm.

CR 9 : 1

16 psi max boost

Valve duration Inlet 260 deg Ex 270, lift at around 11mm at valve.

Positive manifold pressure by 2000.

420 NM at 3500 and 180 KW at 5000 and 5500.

420 NM is 300 ft lb. at 3500 rpm, I reckon that is achievable for you. I'm only inputting into the sim, using what I know but, it would be better if we can find a Garrett number or data on your favourite turbo to compare. Numbers for BMEP are pretty full on , too.

165 psi at 2000 and 420 psi at 3500. Hooo dawg!

[Stewart]

Bean,

I've got what looks like a good combo with 94mm bore and the T04E60 turbo numbers. 315 hp at 5000 and 383 ftlb at 3500.

Cam is 28 /56 and 71 /21. I'll do a comparison to a std set up and try and work out how to post it up here!

[Bean]

That's pretty sweet Stewart! Do you happen to know what A/R the exhaust housing is on the turbo that your using?

I've always assumes the A/R listed was usually the compressor side.

Just saw your request for turbo specs you can input into the SIM - can you post a screen print of the turbo info you need and I'll find the info.

Rabin