Stewart Posted April 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2013 If that's the case with the piston, we have moved forward quickly! Once the bore is increased and we sort the cam, a small amount of machining on the crown will give us a perfect situation in DCR without worrying about offset grinding the crank. Pin offset and pin size for available pistons next. Some pistons don't run much pin offset so we need to check them with the Pug engine so she stays nice and smooth. I'll go and check on my piston lists. I think that VW idea will do nicely but they do need lighter pins and may need skirt reduction which is not ideal.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted April 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2013 I've just read Tama's build and we are closer still. He remarked on using SAAB 900 rods from the 80's. Also that he needed to decrease the crank journal to suit, so offset grind may just be possible with them. Also I know for sure that our Ford 6 cyl pistons are around 92 to 93 and are available in many configurations street race and turbo.In fact I'm using Ford 250 cu. in the V8 build. I think the pins are 23mm. Very nice and well made by ACL. http://www.aclperformance.com.au/6MKRY9410.htm How is this for memory? 0.020" over gives you 94 millipedes bore!!!!!!!! Check the others for bowl type. I reckon there is a race series too, I'll check on that. If we can check the pin height against the Pug and then compare parts from Saab rods/pistons etc we will know more. I'm using a flat top + 0.030" 93.47 mm, it has a smaller pin so I'm making the small end on the con rod, a full floater and will cut clip grooves into the pistons. I have a gut feeling that 504 XN gudgeon bushes may be close. I found the piston on the program I was telling you about where it was ideal for it at 0.030" over. A nice fit with 0.005" on the radius hone for the cylinders off std. and the bore matches the diameter of the gasket without having to get specials made. Got really lucky with compression height too as I wanted another 2mm . Handy thing to have. The ECU for the V8 I have, is made to order for my needs from http://www.ecotecmarine.co.nz/. I sent the crank and cam sensors over and they set the system up. So what I got is idle control using 306 1.8 IAC, 4 wire. Knock inputs. Wasted spark. (2 x 306 coil packs), Map, TPS and batch fire 2 lots of 4 injectors once every 720 deg. 80 mins of on board data logging at any time. Fan control, a/c, drive compensation , all that. Ignition is driven with amplifiers in the ECU also. Lambda as well with a data input from Innovate LM-2. I found this LM-2 a revelation once I set it up into my 404 which runs a Link G3. It will feed the Link and I can log to my notebook but also the LM has it's own logging flash card which is great for reading mixture on the go, etc. The one issue I had though was the power to run it. If I use the cig lighter or car's battery often I couldn't pick up after start and early warm up because the unit dropped out during crank. A motor cycle battery in the case for the LM fixed that drama. Might be worth noting for future reference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 I read Tama's post over and over, and then I tried to find the components on this side of the pond... No such luck... I called the Saab places and tried to see if anyone had done any custom rod solutions - but nada. It was during that search i came across the 94mm VW pistons, and since V-M didn't have any luck with his 96mm overbore I thought 94mm might be the hot ticket. Custom VW pistons should also allow me to request the N9TE piston dish be machined into them if needed. I'd like to keep the stock dish shape so as to keep the proper quench pads in place. Having custom rods spec'd out isn't a deal breaker, and the weight savings and strength of some nice forged H-beam rods are quite affordable if you can use an existing design with some modifications. Only concern for me was finding another rod that had a similar bearing width to the N9TE so that it would be easier to have it offset ground, and I'd also want to make sure that the bearings and such for those rods were high quality and readily available. Do you think leaviing the pistons as flat tops is viable with 15 - 18 psi boost? Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted April 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 The early idea was to get something dummied and take out a small amount once the math's are done. Just something to check over. The pistons also come in dished or machine the 8 shape in to the flat top if there is just a small amount to come out, or???? Try one of the beggars and get something made once all sussed out. I'm sorry I don't know what the rod dimensions are, but I'll find out. There could just be something in the program which might match. So 94 is about the magic bore! I'll also check for you regarding the Saab bits. Plenty in Aus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted April 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 This might be worth a look through. http://www.performanceenginecomponents.com/Products/products.asp?type=dept&DepartmentID=719&MID= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted April 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 While I'm here, does anyone have ideas for this multi spoke wheel? I think this style painted or polished, looks the business for a 505. We don't have many options, I know but, if any one can recommend something close to this , or where to look, would be great. I noticed a nice genuine 308 wheel is close and a 17" rim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my3AWDgst Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 O.Z racing wheels have what are you looking for. If you can't get correct wheel offset or bolt opattern you can always get custom wheel spacers like I did on my MI16. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted May 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 Ta. I'll look. Pick up my block tomorrow. Fresh from boring and mains tunnel hone. Time for a dummy fit up to check comp heights and quench. Yippee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeugeotFan613 Posted May 13, 2013 Report Share Posted May 13, 2013 Amazing conversation. Tons of information, and excellent links. I am astounded And inspired. Thanks so much for this thread and the posts, keep it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted May 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Not a lot of progress these last 2 weeks, although proudly I have proven my initial, safe, ignition timing graph, theory for air fuel tuning, works very well indeed. The V8's ACL pistons really look the part in the over sized bore. We need to find a solution for the press fit gudgeon into the conrod though. The old pin was 23mm and the new is 22mm. There isn't a lot of meat in the rod to bore it for a full floater pin so we're thinking of using a reducer bush. That's 0.5mm wall thickness so we'll need to get the material compatibility right. I'm thinking of using a seal face repair sleeve but I guess we could just buy the material and machine it up on the lathe. The only problem with that is the lathe is still in the box! So little time for things that really matter! Number one son has turned 21 today too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 This is the gently bored and honed, std. block with 0.030" Ford 250 piston. From memory a 0.010" cut to std. Bean should be impressed with the squishy quenchy bowl! Piston should sit 0.001 to 0.0015" above deck. This is prelim fitting. This gives us at least the minimum quench requirement clearance of 0.040", in the head gasket thickness. So, for best safe practice in this street/track engine from here I measure piston rock at TDC and then calculate rod stretch and bearing clearance etc for a very close indicator of just how close the piston could get to the head. The big issue is with this very tight clearance is how far open the Inlet and Exhaust valves are at TDC. and how close (0.040" min.) they can get to the piston at TDC. I'm thinking metal shim style head gaskets to trim the squish to a minimum but have yet to research composite stuff. Some I know are near 0.050" so no good there. Moving forward, slowly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I love the level of detail you go to, and wish I had the time to put into my motor immediately! Sadly I'm still a couple winter's off being able to make the engine my winter garage project. I would imagine paying for an engine build that goes into this detail is why a proper engine build is so much money, but I love the science of the build and would have a lot of fun methodically going through the motor on rebuild fully optimising every aspect. Finding someone to do the engine machining will be the hard part. The numbers you list for things like deck protrusion and valve clearances to piston are GOLD... It's exactly the level I want to put into my N9TE as I want it to be an astounding motor in all respects. Fully balanced, and fully sorted it should be a very potent little power package. BTW - what made you go with the Ford 250 pistons? Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I've used ACl pistons in a lot of successful builds one of them 25 years ago when I was just out of my time and the boss and I built a sweet Holden engine with an incredible amount of torque for such a simple engine with not a lot of modifying. It is still running beautifully today, 6 cyl Triple carbs 13:1 Bathurst spec head. on 100 race fuel. It is a sleeper street car. The head has been changed twice as better ones pass through my friends ancient garage and into his hands. The pistons and bore are worn a little but sweet FA. The Ford pistons are made here by ACL and just came up as being very close, once I got th' syferin' dun. It started with a challenge. Why hasn't any found a better piston combo for the s##t with no real quench, being fitted to rebuilt Rover engines? It turns out there is a Holden piston that fits the 3.5 as well. That has been done before. ACL do a lot of race pistons and rings. And their listings are available easily! We have 6 cyl Ford stuff that has used the same piston for decades and has been turboed, all that so many types of pin height and bowls. The last decade has given a 4 l turbo multi valve var. cam timing, engine that just blows the V8 for torque and power. I reckon Ford pistons from ACL will do! I'm using Hastings rings though as the Old Ring Gap theory made me buy fileable rings. http://www.acl.com.au/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 We started to strip out the initial 505 for the V8 this week. We made plenty of mistakes from the initial and now are proceeding into a decent attempt at a well balanced 505 with big grunt. Initially we moved the early Rover V8 back 300mm into the 505 but there were two big issues with that after we thought we had it looking good. My car is right hand drive and the v8's starter motor became perfectly situated 30mm into the power steering valve on the rack. ( Curses) The second issue is I managed to grab a fantastic example of an 85 505 GTi 2.2 auto which needs some minor dents fixed and a perfect interior and no sunroof. Rare over here. The car is one from a long standing client, recently retired to a unit so the poor old 505 got tha' boot. I drove it for a few days and she is in superb nick. So much so I thought about a tidy up recon job with a turbo 2.2 auto, combination. But I think with a little rethinking on engine position and using the very late 1997 Rover 4.6 Thor engine, which is shorter to the older units by a good 200mm, we can make a 505 with the same handling we know and expect from the 505. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Anytime you want to upload pictures into the gallery Stewart - you're more than welcome! I'd LOVE to see the new acquisitions and if you happen to have any build pictures that'd be awesome. The 4.6L Thor sounds like it has tons of potential as well - but the worst thing about hearing your progress will be it's infectious nature once one sees how a V8 goes into a 505. I've not done any measuring, but I'd really like one of the newer Dodge Hemi 5.7L engines... Not only is there some lineage there that makes it work - but I'm a MOPAR guy from my earliest days since my first car was a 1973 Plymouth Satellite Sebring Plus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted February 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Bean! How will you get the balance right? Mid mounted 5.7 Hemi??????? Now, let me see???????????????? I've been having to take a big rest this week and been mulling over a few things. The red 505 is a real nice starter and really should just get a strong 2.2 turbo with auto, but that won't give me big punch from low down. I have a hot 2.7 oddfire in the top storage with the late Volvo cross ram inlets. That with a turbo and manual, might come close but, when you look how small and neat and light the 4.6 is, not to mention how dead cool it looks, the other choices seem sort of inadequate. I want to keep balance and auto but also want off idle punch with an auto. It seems in my mind the best of both worlds without all the abs and traction control stuff. See how compact this is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Balance? We don't need no stinkin' balance... A 5.7 Hemi tucked up as close as possible to the firewall, rear mounted battery should be OK balance wise, but it wouldn't be an auto cross car by any means. 425HP stock, all alloy, and available plug'n play hot rod electronics mean it should be fairly straight forward to install. Corvette drivetrain would be even better I'd you could keep the transaxle in the back - but these are essentially cost no object installs. For a more "grassroots" V8 swap the Ford 302 / 5.0L from 88+ with alloy heads would be a nice compact set up, and decently light. Not too much work and they'll do 300HP all day long, and they sound fantastic. Under $5k with some smart shopping and I bet you could have a completed car that was really well done with a freshened motor. I've got Automotive ADD however - if I stop and think about all the potential in my N9TE I'm quickly returned to optimizing the N9TE first. Its a whole lot easier to get 300 HP out of that engine, and if done well it'll be a better package. (Not to mention the pride in doing it on the engine it came with) Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my3AWDgst Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I like the idea off V8 but I hate pushrod engines. It's 2014 so there is so much better out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 You reckon? the only good thing about the twin cam heads is you can play with the cam timing or they have, ( at long fu##ing last) started to use variable cam timing. There is a lot more stuff on all engines now. I just like the relative simplicity and tiny size of that Thor engine, however!Have you had a good look at the VW VR32 and stuff? That is a tiny engine for 3.2 litres but it is complicated! Imagine one of those in a 505 with a turbo! My way of thinking is the rover weighs in around 230 kg for 4.6l and 300 ft lb easy, I'll post a couple of images as soon as I can. It sort of sits in like it is meant to be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeugeotFan613 Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I like the idea off V8 but I hate pushrod engines. It's 2014 so there is so much better out there. Savo, come on man. http://www.caranddriver.com/news/gen-v-small-block-v-8-specs-and-details-on-the-c7-engine-news How dare you? Pushrod engines are still kicking ass! just read the link! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 this article is a bit old, but it's a good discussion of the tradeoffs of pushrod engines vs. OHC designs... andré Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunktionFET Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I used to be all anti-pushrods. I understand the advantages of OHC designs; the removal of unnecessary inertia, improved reliability and precision at high RPM, etc. However I've made my peace with pushrod engines. They have their place, and you can't deny they are very compact. And nowadays, they can reliably attain reasonably high RPM with non-exotic parts. Regular stuff from the Jegs or Summit Racing catalog can build a 7000+ RPM old-school V8, and modern LSx engines can just about do that out of the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Well the build is progressing, here are some images of the biggest problem. Steering clearance to the engine and starter. We have worked out that the engine will go back into the car 100mm more than the Peugeot unit and then I'll make up a starter assembly to fit onto the left side of the block. That doesn't seem to have been done before so it looks like I'll use a Denso hi power Chev starter with a 9 teeth pinion and make a mounting block to fit the engine Oh so close to moving on with the build. This clearance issue is proving difficult. Once we decided to admit it is best to push the engine back 100mm and rework the firewall, the starter was still in the way but we found that fitting a left hand starter like a Chev, under the block, will just fit. I think the Denso unit which does not run a snout for the pinion will almost fit in behind the bell housing without having to cut for clearance. Next week will bring new ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Hi Stewart, Just curious if you've had any more progress? Nothing new on my front as our weather hasn't cooperated and we're still patiently waiting for Spring. Once back from vacation in May however - weather better be cooperative as I've got a HUGE list of things I want to accomplish this year - paramount will be that my 89' 505 turbo is sporting a functioning big brake system and rolling on 17" BMW wheels! Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Posted April 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2014 Yes Bean it is moving forward slowly. I have finally found the starter solution in one from one of our Holden products. It is 1.7kw unit that bolts up like a small block Chev. I have to turn up a spigot to sit the flex plate on the engine so I might position the new starter. Australia is right hand drive which means the steering valve was sitting half way through the Rover starter. I just couldn't find a suitable fix for that so started to look at left side starter options. 2 months down the track and I'm pretty convinced the new unit will be able to be fitted up soon. That done the build problems are almost all solved so some decent progress should happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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