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The unfortunate event that happened to Nick's car got me to thinking. How many nice 505s are left?

Andre, Rabin and I are tossing around the idea of a registry. And that will happen, but how does one determine the condition of a car on an objective basis?

I'm in favor of creating a standard like the IACPFA that Ferraris are judged by. Here is their standard:

http://www.ferrariclubofamerica.org/resources/DocuWorks/file_display.cfm?id=68

As to the nuts and bolts of an assessment, there's this from "Automobile Inspectors".

http://www.automobileinspections.com/services/samples/report-sample-08.asp

The Mustang Club of America even makes their judges pass a test! :)

http://www.midcomustang.com/mustangmcajudging.shtml

Granted, at first, we'll be "judging" our own cars as there are few times when there are more than a couple of Peugeot owners in the same place at the same time. But, it's a start. I suppose we could do this digitally here. People posting pictures with follow-up pictures as requested. I'd be very curious to find out what people think of this idea.

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i also think it's a good idea

but -- there are appraisals and there are concours -- are you talking about setting up structure through which we could generate appraisal values for our cars, or are you talking about a more conventional concours-type rating system? the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, as one could use a high concours score as part of one's case that a particular car is worth more than whatever lowball amount someone wants to assign to it (i.e., insurance settlement). i think a concours system is something that we can and should move towards...in any case, this presupposes some sort of organization that would sanction this activity.

the one concern that i would like to put out is that i wouldn't want this rating/valuation/appraisal system to subsume the registry, rather, it should merely be an adjunct to it. people should be able to anonymously register their cars, only giving basic information if that's how they want to do it. more info is always better...

andré

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Yup, I agree Andre, a dollar-based valuation would come later when we got cars properly appraised. But, within the 505 community we can set a standard. I'd like to see a 100 point system. I propose the following point system:

Drivetrain (engine, tranny diff) 30 points

Paint (paint, dents, trim, etc) 20 points

Suspension (springs, shocks, brakes, handbrake) 20 points

Interior (seats, dash, trim, carpet, rattles, etc) 20 points

Electrical (switches, lights, etc.) 10 points

Granted, if you're looking at a real beater, you could end up with a negative number. But that's OK. There are a lot of beaters. A few cars would break 90 (not mine!). I'm thinking of Alex Nunez' wagon.

Thoughts?

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I like it - but I think some more granularity would be good in the evaluation of each category. Things like glass would need to be included in exterior - stuff like that.

Because of that granularity - we'd need to assign a #.# point system which then gives us more leeway to add more categories for classification.

I've got a buddy in the local hot rod club that does a big yearly show. They do an evaluation form for assessing cars for judging, so I'd guess something like that exists online, and if not I can see if I can get a copy of what they use.

Ideally there's already a set criteria for evaluation we can adopt so that it's got some credibility and not something we're making up. Something like this maybe: appraisal guide

Rabin

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This is a great idea. Creating a spreadsheet wouldn't be difficult to create with what Koll is suggesting and being able to add sub-categories as it becomes more detailed. I see major differences in original and restored values ratings too.

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Sure, that works for me. Should we modify it for our cars and go with that?

I found it with a quick google just before I sent it and it looked decent. Closer look now and I think it is a definitely a good base, and if the other appraisal entities use the same 6 categories I think we'd be fine customizing it within that structure to suit us better.

So spreadsheet format to start with? Should be nice and easy with an auto summation column for the points awarded. :)

Rabin

BTW: It's George Nunez in FL.

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Right! I should have remembered that (George). Wish he made it here more often.

For our cars, there should be a few things clarified about "originality" vs "restored".

These cars aren't Ferraris or Bentlys. Nobody thinking that way. If you've got a 87 car but it's got a 89 steering wheel. As long as the colors match, all good. Same for a Peugeot Momo. But the one made from a chain you'd find on a low rider... Well, not really.

Rob's new seats would be like ... new seats.

Anything safety related is 100% a go.

Full concessions to reproduction parts. As it is, most of the suppliers that made parts for our cars got swallowed up by other companies now. Sometimes Peugeot sourced parts from two or more different suppliers.

My question is. How anal do we get? Is someone going to lose a point because their right rear window switch isn't illuminated? I also think certain components should be weighted. I've got roached seats on my 89. Everything else in the car could be 100%, but with the crappy seats, it should lose 1/2 of all possible interior points - not just one.

A spreadsheet would be nice.

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a couple of thoughts

self-evaluating is a good way to start because it will allow us to develop standards....somebody can eval their own car & document the shit out of the process, including pictures and explanations ("this is why i gave myself a perfect score"). they can post it here, in this category area and we can discuss it and argue about it until we reach some sort of consensus. then, in the future as real-life meetups happen, we can eval each others cars & compare the results & discuss, etc.

additionally, to expand on koll's point about originality -- as a group who (collectively) knows a lot about 505s, there are specific issues that we are aware of that should be taken into account. for example, fernando just put a k&n type air filter on his zn3j; since original filter media is not available for that engine, he should get full points since that's the best way to maintain that type of engine...here and now, anyway. a similar mod on an xn6, zdjl or n9te should result in a point hit, though...i'm sure other similar situations will come up...

andré

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This is a great discussion BTW... :)

I'd like to counter Andre's suggestion that cars that don't use available parts should be docked, with upgrades that are better in every way and appear stock, or simply very well done.

I've re-wired and re-loomed a lot of my wiring harness already, and I can easily say that not only does it look better than OEM, but it IS better than OEM. Same with turfing the crappy power block and getting rid of the unfused power wires to the fan sensor in the rad.

My point? If the mod is OEM quality, or OEM+ upgrade it should get full points too. I agree that these cars aren't ever going to be entered into a concours show at Pebble Beach - so we should value very well maintained / modified cars.

Deduct points for shoddy zip tie and duct tape installs of course, but if it looks like it could be OEM, or way to nice to be factory - that's gotta be a good thing!

I also really like the idea of a committee decision on creating the initial benchmarks. We can hash it out and come to an agreement that will give us an excellent start.

Rabin

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Idea about the division of points:

We should break up each item with a possible high value for each category.

So the interior is worth say 30 points total: Seats 14.0, Dash 4.0, door cards 1.0 each, carpet 4.0 and the headliner 4.0

I made up the numbers to help with the example of weighing the seats with more "value" as they do tend to give the biggest impression of a nice interior.

Rabin

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I would love to offer whatever spare time I have (don't have much) but maybe during Winter Break from school to also help out with it.

One of the best ideas ever. There is a VERY comprehensive BMW Global M-Registry. We deserve one for our 505's!

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All sounding good. Who wants to cook up the first spreadsheet. Wonder if Google Docs would be start.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am3B0IBxcTy3dGlQSHNEUmJFZ2c0aGdLQ0JHcTBNSGc&hl=en_US

I set it so anybody could view it. I'm sure you have to have a gmail account to edit it. I added Rabin, Andre, PM me your email.

There is now an online database (Google Form).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am3B0IBxcTy3dEtacmJYb0tjTUdlZDJLeHN3VG9EZVE&hl=en_US

I always wondered if these online collaboration tools would be useful. Here goes! :)

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koll -- pm sent

rabin (& everyone) -- what you are proposing is the other way to go. i don't think we can go with a "pure" concours model, as it's next to impossible at this point to field a concours-quality 505...what with the parts situation being what it is. so we are all talking about a "modified concours" system of rating our cars, it's just a question of where you slice the baloney.

as i understand it, the underlying reasoning for originality as the guiding principle behind concours ratings is objectivity -- it's simpler to give full points for a clean, original setup than it is to evaluate a modified setup. i agree that your wiring mods to you car makes it more valuable (and thus, more deserving of a higher point score in a perfect universe). but a big part of the reason for that is that *you* performed the mods. what if i rewired my car? it's within the realm of theoretical possibility that my wiring job would be as good as or better than yours, but i think that most people here would probably not believe that unless they inspected it for themselves. after all, you are a former racing mechanic, and i get people green cards for a living. :D i can beat on this hypothetical situation all day, but i think you can see what i'm getting at. so there's an "objectivity" issue here that we've got to address.

ultimately, though, where we draw the line is less important if the process is documented. then, a third party can decide for themselves what value to attach to the information they are getting. thus, i'm fine with whatever we come up with as long as we're mindful of these issues....

also would like to reiterate that these evaluations/ratings should be run as an adjunct to the registry....that is to say, a registry entry could be basic, or it could include one or more ratings in addition to the basic info.

andré

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Well, original concourse examples are just not gonna happen. There was that Euro-spec XN6 car in that Vegas collection going for $10K, but we're not going to get a look at that.

I view electrical fixes (if done correctly) as a safety issue and better than OEM. Or at a minimum "as good" as original. Now, if you made the horn button flash the fog lights... Well... But if functionality is restored and it's a safety issue, then it has to be treated as correct.

A more complex issue is the intake hard pipe that I had fabricated for Paraic's blue car. It looks no way stock, but the OEM part is NLA. I'd have to give that a Good To Go. But it's aluminum instead of black. Would I feel the same way had I painted it neon Honda orange? I don't know. The only reason I didn't paint it black is black hides dirt and oil better than aluminum. I'm not a big fan of black in the engine compartment for that reason. But people get really silly with that.

I think discussions like that are going to be fun and I don't have problems with that at all.

Seeing the cars are not Pebble material, you just can't knock someone for a well done tower brace or Optimum battery with dorky machined aluminum hold down. We're after factory behavior and general condition.

I say we push forward and handle the judging of individual item by consensus later on.

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Damn - this is decent progress already!

To clarify one point though - I would never expect a modded / updated car to get a better score than a pristine original car - I just don't want to see it docked points for the upgrades if they're done to OEM quality standards +. If a mod is attempted, and it shows - then of course it has to be docked.

With Koll's example - I used to paint up (spray bomb) engine parts all the time, but they end up looking far worse over time as spray bombed stuff looks like ass after a while. If the parts are left in the raw material, or if they're properly painted / powdercoated - then I think the value of the mod is retained as the repair looks far better in the long term.

I look forward to the discussions. I think different points of view ensures a stronger and more valid evaluation as a result.

Hopefully I can put some time into that online spreadsheet to see how that will work. I did see that you can also download it into numerous formats - so should be able to get something in place I'd think.

Rabin

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so it looks like i have the ability to edit this document, though i have no idea how since i haven't used google docs a lot.

in any event, there's one thing about your (very nice) first draft -- it's manual transmission-centric. is there a way that we can modify this so that it contemplates automatic transmissions, as well?

andré

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I'd say since automatics are more problem prone, if it's shifting right, give it the full 10 points. Perhaps, driveline/differential could be included in there as well. Thinking of vibration/noise. The reason I'd like to see a full 10 points given to the driveline behind the flywheel/flexplate is because if something there is broken, it seriously affects the value of the car.

You edit a cell by pressing F2.

Here is the documentation for the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=140784&topic=20322&rd=1#

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