4x100 Adapter Group Buy

[andrethx]

Bean,

I have a question. The link to tire rack that you provided us with, the year of the miata wheels is for 1994. Would that be the only year that we can research wheel specs and sizes for? Also, would the back spacing be resticted to only 5.5"? I have seen some wheels that I like but the back spacing ranges from 5.75 to 5.8. Just wondering.

I think the Miata switched from the 4x100 pcd to a 5-bolt setup around 2006, so anything up through 2005 or so should be okay, assuming the backspacing is appropriate.

Also, if I read Rabin's earlier post correctly, a rim with greater backspacing is do-able but would require thicker adapters (to compensate for the greater offset) which would require more material and thus would cost more. So the question is, what would that do to the group buy...Rabin, is that analysis correct?

Andre

[Bean]

Yup - Andre is correct on the analysis, but to clarify the "group buy" isn't really a group buy as such anymore.

My machinist buddy is just charging for time and materials basically whether we order 1 set, or 8 sets. So he's giving us basically the same deal of group buy pricing, but on any set we order, whenever we order it. So he can also do them one set at a time whenever you are ready to purchase.

Also - if you want the newer bolt pattern, we can see if that works as well. As long as there's room for the 4x140 and the new bolt pattern in the adapter - it's doable.

I've got spare front ABS, non ABS hubs, and rear flanges for him to ensure fitment as well - so anything he makes up will be bolted up to a flange to ensure it works 100%.

So if you need it thicker, alloy or steel, or a different bolt pattern we can work it out, but pricing goes up based on materials and such. Also - I've been using M12x1.5 studs in the hubs I'm building as the lugs are easier to come across it seems. So if you need anything specific please indicate that as well.

Rabin

[pushgo]

Yup - Andre is correct on the analysis, but to clarify the "group buy" isn't really a group buy as such anymore.

My machinist buddy is just charging for time and materials basically whether we order 1 set, or 8 sets. So he's giving us basically the same deal of group buy pricing, but on any set we order, whenever we order it. So he can also do them one set at a time whenever you are ready to purchase.

Also - if you want the newer bolt pattern, we can see if that works as well. As long as there's room for the 4x140 and the new bolt pattern in the adapter - it's doable.

I've got spare front ABS, non ABS hubs, and rear flanges for him to ensure fitment as well - so anything he makes up will be bolted up to a flange to ensure it works 100%.

So if you need it thicker, alloy or steel, or a different bolt pattern we can work it out, but pricing goes up based on materials and such. Also - I've been using M12x1.5 studs in the hubs I'm building as the lugs are easier to come across it seems. So if you need anything specific please indicate that as well.

Rabin

Bean,

thanks for more clarification on the bolt patterens as well as studs in the hubs. another question that may sound stupid. I am mechanical to a certain degree, i.e. i can do some maintance and then theres stuff I need to take my car to peugeot mechanic for...anyhow my point, when I order the adapters are these something I can take to a tire shop along with the rims of choice and have them mounted?

[pushgo]

Bean,

thanks for more clarification on the bolt patterens as well as studs in the hubs. another question that may sound stupid. I am mechanical to a certain degree, i.e. i can do some maintance and then theres stuff I need to take my car to peugeot mechanic for...anyhow my point, when I order the adapters are these something I can take to a tire shop along with the rims of choice and have them mounted?

also, would a 205/50 R17 tire work? and what would be the largest tire that I can mount to the rim? 215/50 215/55? My car is a turbo w/o ABS.

[Bean]

Can you take the adapters to a tire shop and have them install with the new rim? Yes

Would I trust a tire shop to install the adapters correctly? No.

I've had so much trouble with tire shops doing piss poor work that I RARELY trust them to do anything. If it were me, I'd take it to a trusted garage to do the work. It'd be child's play for them to do - but I'd feel better that it was installed properly if a shop did it versus taking it to a tire place. Just make sure to call ahead to see that they would have no issues installing adapters before going.

Just make sure that whomever installs it cleans the wheel flanges, uses some anti sieze on the mating surfaces, AND only uses a hand held torque wrench for tightening both sets of the lug nuts. If at all possible - I'd suggest doing the install yourself.

Largest tire - or widest tire? All depends on the size of rim. If you are getting a 7" wide wheel I'd say 225 or 235 would be the widest, if you did 7.5" then 245 would be the widest I would recommend. 225-45-17 is quite a bit bigger in diameter than the 215-60-15's on my 89' 505, so I would think they'd need to be 225-40's to be fairly close to the stock diameter. If you want it bang on - compare revolutions per mile to the comparable 205-60-15 tire and may sure they are close.

That said - I've got no idea what the clearance issues will be until I mount my 235-45-17's on my car, but I should think you would be able to clear a 7.5" wheel with 225's pretty easy.

BTW: Studs for my hub were ~$2/ stud - so it's about $35 in addition just for studs for a 4 lug set up.

Rabin

[pushgo]

Can you take the adapters to a tire shop and have them install with the new rim? Yes

Would I trust a tire shop to install the adapters correctly? No.

I've had so much trouble with tire shops doing piss poor work that I RARELY trust them to do anything. If it were me, I'd take it to a trusted garage to do the work. It'd be child's play for them to do - but I'd feel better that it was installed properly if a shop did it versus taking it to a tire place. Just make sure to call ahead to see that they would have no issues installing adapters before going.

Just make sure that whomever installs it cleans the wheel flanges, uses some anti sieze on the mating surfaces, AND only uses a hand held torque wrench for tightening both sets of the lug nuts. If at all possible - I'd suggest doing the install yourself.

Largest tire - or widest tire? All depends on the size of rim. If you are getting a 7" wide wheel I'd say 225 or 235 would be the widest, if you did 7.5" then 245 would be the widest I would recommend. 225-45-17 is quite a bit bigger in diameter than the 215-60-15's on my 89' 505, so I would think they'd need to be 225-40's to be fairly close to the stock diameter. If you want it bang on - compare revolutions per mile to the comparable 205-60-15 tire and may sure they are close.

That said - I've got no idea what the clearance issues will be until I mount my 235-45-17's on my car, but I should think you would be able to clear a 7.5" wheel with 225's pretty easy.

BTW: Studs for my hub were ~$2/ stud - so it's about $35 in addition just for studs for a 4 lug set up.

Rabin

Are they pretty easy to install if I tried to install them myself? If anything I would probably take my car to the garage. heres another stupid question. Would I be able to just have my tires mounted to my rims and then take the new rim/tires to the garage and have them installed after having the adapters mounted to my car uing the careful installation procedures? Sorry if I am flooding you with the stupid questions. As you can see I am Def intrested in placing my order for these adapters. I just want to make sure I am making a good investment and also making sure that any defects are worked through before spending the money. Thanks again bean!

[Bean]

Are they pretty easy to install if I tried to install them myself? If anything I would probably take my car to the garage. heres another stupid question. Would I be able to just have my tires mounted to my rims and then take the new rim/tires to the garage and have them installed after having the adapters mounted to my car uing the careful installation procedures? Sorry if I am flooding you with the stupid questions. As you can see I am Def intrested in placing my order for these adapters. I just want to make sure I am making a good investment and also making sure that any defects are worked through before spending the money. Thanks again bean!

Take the car to a GOOD tire shop with the adapters and the new wheels mounted with rubber. Once the adapters are on - only the new wheels will bolt on, so you need to have both done at the same time.

It's very easy to install the adapter, just like installing a really small rim to be honest. The reason I was hesitant in trusting tire shops is they usually have some young kid / lacky that torque's the living crap out of stuff with an impact. A GOOD tires shop, or a garage will hopefully have knowledgable staff that will assemble properly and with hand torquing using a proper torque wrench.

Many "shops" will use torque limiting extensions - but they are crap and they loose their "limiting" ability quickly, and usualy over tighten lugs everytime.

Just make sure to specify antiseize on the maiting surfaces as well as it makes future work muach easier.

Rabin

[ohms]

i'm good with it being a 4x100 adapter. i'm already keeping my eyes open for any deals on bbs mesh rims. once i get those, i can play some yazoo and be totally 80s. *grin*

[andrethx]

i'm good with it being a 4x100 adapter. i'm already keeping my eyes open for any deals on bbs mesh rims. once i get those, i can play some yazoo and be totally 80s. *grin*

Don't know what the style is in other parts of the world, but here in LA, one sees a lot of alloys that have a simple, "open" style...the idea is, when the wheels are turning, you can see the rotors and calipers clearly. Preferably, the rotors are drilled and the calipers are painted some bright color. Seems like everyone's doing this, from ricers to the high-rollers in Bentleys & Ferraris.

I think this desire to show off one's brake hardware is also the reason the dark-gray or black rims are so popular, as they make it easier to see through the wheel face...

Andre

[ohms]

these are the bbs mesh wheels i meant. BBS RS i think theyre called. wouldnt expose the brake hardware too much heh

[norcal505]

Oh god, Omar you just posted one of my top 3 dream cars: the e30 m3.

BBS RS are one of the most sought after rims in the euro car scene, and there are many reps too.

ESM has a pretty decent one, that can look good with the BBS center caps.

I know the owner, he's in Southern Cali, and I can point you in his direction.

[ohms]

yeah, i'd very very very vey likely have to get a set of knockoffs hehe.

when the time comes, i'll def hit you up about that

im thinking this holiday weekend i'll have some time to do some photoshops...wanna see mesh rims, panasport (minilite copies), and maybe koseis and enkeis and rotas (since i'm gunning for a 4x100 pattern, those should be plentiful on craigslist)

[pushgo]

yeah, i'd very very very vey likely have to get a set of knockoffs hehe.

when the time comes, i'll def hit you up about that

im thinking this holiday weekend i'll have some time to do some photoshops...wanna see mesh rims, panasport (minilite copies), and maybe koseis and enkeis and rotas (since i'm gunning for a 4x100 pattern, those should be plentiful on craigslist)

Just pondering something here...Do you think an 18" wheel can be fitted to the 505? As I said earlier, just something I was pondering

[Bean]

Having driven on some of the NICE roads down there, I don't see why some 18's wouldn't work... Only real dimension to worry about is the backspacing and bolt pattern.

Up here where the roads are absolute crap - I think that would be pushing it since tire sidewalls couldn't protect the rims well enough from impacts.

Rabin

[pushgo]

Having driven on some of the NICE roads down there, I don't see why some 18's wouldn't work... Only real dimension to worry about is the backspacing and bolt pattern.

Up here where the roads are absolute crap - I think that would be pushing it since tire sidewalls couldn't protect the rims well enough from impacts.

Rabin

I would stick with the mita or mini 4x100 bolts pattern. what would be the recommended backspacing you would recomend?

I would stick with the mita or mini 4x100 bolts pattern. what would be the recommended backspacing you would recomend?

P.S. I spoke to my mechanic and he said that he would happily mount the adapters to my car. I guess the only thing I would need to do is bring my wheels and tires mounted and balanced so they can be placed on the car.

[Bean]

With the way spacing works, the only thing we are trying to do is keep the inside of the tire from rubbing on the strut housing. With 15" Pug wheels, that backspacing is ~4.5". With larger rims, the rim is actually farther up the strut tube (1.5" higher with an 18" wheel), and due to strut tube angling away - you might be able to decrease that backspacing a bit to get that wheel as close to the strut as possible without interference.

The reason I want to have the rim close to the strut is to try and decrease the "scrub radius" increase that is occuring with going to wider rims. (might gain .25" decrease in scrub radius).

Our cars handle EXCEPTIONALLY well, so I want to keep things as "proper" as we can. If I know the rims ahead of time I can play around with a spare strut and see what would be the best guess for the spacer to be made.

Need to know the wheels before I can do that however. Sure we can make generic ones, but if you have the chance to do it right I thing it'd be worth the effort.

Rabin

[pushgo]

With the way spacing works, the only thing we are trying to do is keep the inside of the tire from rubbing on the strut housing. With 15" Pug wheels, that backspacing is ~4.5". With larger rims, the rim is actually farther up the strut tube (1.5" higher with an 18" wheel), and due to strut tube angling away - you might be able to decrease that backspacing a bit to get that wheel as close to the strut as possible without interference.

The reason I want to have the rim close to the strut is to try and decrease the "scrub radius" increase that is occuring with going to wider rims. (might gain .25" decrease in scrub radius).

Our cars handle EXCEPTIONALLY well, so I want to keep things as "proper" as we can. If I know the rims ahead of time I can play around with a spare strut and see what would be the best guess for the spacer to be made.

Need to know the wheels before I can do that however. Sure we can make generic ones, but if you have the chance to do it right I thing it'd be worth the effort.

Rabin

Ok Bean, I have found the wheel that I would like to order and mount to my car. here are the deals for measurements and fittings. Offset: +38mm, Backspacing: 5.74", Bolt Pattern: 4-100 sized from 2005 mita. 17x7. I've decided to go with 17" rim considering what you had mention in your earlier response about "scrub radius" and i still think that a 17" rim is ideal and will def make a difference on the appearance of my car without over kill. .

[Bean]

Excellent - Can you provide the center bore dimension as well?

Also - Let me know if you want them in T6061 (slightly more $ but lighter), or mild steel (slightly cheaper and stronger). I'll confirm with Phil on pricing for the adapters, and get final pricing with all the costs included. (Grade 8 nylocs to fasten to the studs, and new M12x1.5 studs to mount the new wheels too.) If you agree - then we'll proceed with payment and such.

I'll also double check the stock 505 Turbo wheel back spacing so that with the adapter in place backspacing will be perfect, and provide Phil with some spare flanges so he can ensure exact fitment.

Rabin

[norcal505]

just an idea for you guys..

[ohms]

that is so wicked.

anyway, bean said a good way to work this is to know what rim u want to begin with, and then figure out the measurements for the adapter at that point. ive found my wheel. the "privat remember" - its a replica of the bbs rs, but so much cheaper (160ish per rim). made by konig.

http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/w...typ=Car/Minivan

do we have pics of 505s with 16" rim and 17" rims (verified size)? ive seen pics of em with larger rims, but never know for sure what size they are, except that theyre bigger than 15 hehe.

theres different offsets available of these also.

side note - theres another konig knockoff called the "rewind" - mimics the minilite/panasport design. would like a set of those for my camaro!

and arent theyre wheel names cute.

[andrethx]

ive found my wheel. the "privat remember" - its a replica of the bbs rs, but so much cheaper (160ish per rim). made by konig.

The Konig Remember is a really cool product, I think the consensus among the wheelwhores guys is that it's one of the best RS knockoffs for the money. Even though it's a one-piece wheel, the (purely cosmetic) bolts on the "outer lip" are removeable and compatible with real RS bolts so you can customize the look -- black bolts with gold centers, for example. Also, I remember reading somewhere that the center caps are compatible with real BBS RS center caps, as well. Not that you'd try to fool people , but there are lots of custom RS center caps to be had. Or, you could just leave the center caps off so it looks like you're on your way to the track...

Andre

Edit -

here's a pic of the back of the Remembers, you can see the bolts...

[Bean]

Yup - I agree they're a nice knock off, and they nail the 80's period correctness for the car too.

A buddy has some rewinds on his 240Z race car - awesome wheels.

Just wanted to give you the skinny on needing to chose a specific wheel size and width before getting the adapters done up.

After Pushgo's set are done - we'll have a very accurate price to go forward with.

Rabin

[bryancohnracing]

Gents,

Been catching up on the adapter thread tonight. I have one concern, the use of nylock nuts to secure the adapter to the rotor/hub. Nylocks have a low temperature threshold. AN and Mil spec Nylocks (as used in all the racing cars I've built) are only good to 250 F. In this application I'd use nothing less can an AN (Army-Navy) or Mil Spec (Military Specification) bolt, and a AN or Mil Spec K or Jet nut or a metal locking nut

Red Loctite may be in order instead of the above as it is good to 600 F. Blue Loctite is low temp, maybe 300 F.

I'm almost sure that the nylon locking ring will melt and the bolts, while tight will have nothing retaining them other than torque of the nut on the bolt. As its a brake assembly subject to massive temperature swings, I'd be very concerned that the bloody adapter might come loose with nylocks. Temp swings might be as high as 1000 degrees or more. Think of it like this: Your car is stone cold, 7:30 AM, 20 degrees. On your drive to work, some twit in a LTD pulls out in front of you while eating a McFatty, talking on the phone and shaving. You are going 45 in a 45, and jam on the brakes to haul down to 20 to keep from imbedding said LTD on your fine Pug. If the brakes and hubs are tooling along at say 300-400 F (just from the normal use), the sudden hard application is going to shoot the temps to 800-1000 easy. At normal temp you've exceeded the Nylocks ability... Now do that swing in general driving every day. If your like me and you occasionally drive briskly entering an on or off ramp where the brake get a work out, how long before it al goes horribly wrong?

I buy all my AN and Mil Spec hardware from www.wicksaircraft.com

You can also find the stuff at Aircraft Spruce.. I've used Wicks cause they were 30 minutes from my shop in St. Louis and recognize motorsports as a viable market. One other source is Coast Fabrication. They supply ALL the top F1, Indy, ALMS, Grand Am and NASCAR teams. Cool stuff but then you also pay the price. They also have hardware that no one else would dream of having...

Biggest problem: AN and Mil Spec do not come in Metric sizes. I've found no source of controlled quality metric fasteners in the US. Everyone says, "Yeah, that is a problem", but has no answer. I figured to drill my hubs (the old lug holes) to fit SAE bolts when I go with adapters.

Fastenal is a decent local choice if you have one close by. Grainger can do in a pinch. I buy some things I can't find elsewhere from Fastenal as they are all over Kansas.

Run, don't walk from the corner hardware store, Lowe's, Home Despot, etc. Just cause the drawer says "Dorman" doesn't mean anything. It can be Chinese made crap and I have seen more than a few failures of hardware labeled Grade 5 or Grade 8 and it might as well have been made from old rusty beer cans.

I'm not trying to scare anyone, just keep us all safe. I might be over the top some, but does anyone want to find out the hard way? Plus, we are only talking a few dollars more per adapter to buy proper hardware and never have to worry. I'm happy to help if needed.

[Bean]

Thanks for that Bryan - I initially said Nylocks as that's what looked to be on the French site in pictures, but it makes total sense to either use proper lugs with a standard taper in the adapter, or spec out some proper spec'd nuts. I could have my other buddy with the wheel refinishing shop press in some proper steel seat tapers and then we could use regular wheel lug nuts.

I've been frequenting www.motoiq.com quite a bit, and they highly recommend Baller Bolts in a number of their articles so I'll give your sources as well as Baller Bolts a try to see what would work best.

Once I know the best value for the $$, I'll updated everyone. I'm want to make sure these things are total overkill, with no question of their strength and durability.

Rabin

[Bean]

I just e-mailed baller bolts, but it occured to me that if there's space, I could simply use proper grade 8+ hardware with a metal lock washer... It would be a nice simple solution that wouldn't have the associated costs of going with the real fancy high spec nuts. (IE: ARP nuts are $3.95 each)

Bryan - would you agree that would suffice? (BTW - There's a couple PROPER nut and bolt shops here in Regina - I NEVER use any of the hardware store crap for ANYTHING structural.)

Rabin