andrethx Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 If you're like me and you occasionally drive briskly entering an on or off ramp where the brakes get a workout, how long before it all goes horribly wrong? "Witnesses say the man, who plunged to his death in a wheelless car of unknown foreign origin, was last heard shouting obscenities and yelling something about 'beans'..." Andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 OK - I actually found that pretty darn funny, but hopefully Phil doesn't get sick to his stomach at the thought! I can assure everyone that if the adapter and the way it's fastened to the hub isn't stronger than any wheel you will be bolting up, I simply won't sell it to anyone. T6061 billet alloy adapter held on with grade 8+ locking hardware IS much stronger than your conventional cast alloy wheels, so you'll have a lot more to concern yourself before these babies even make the list. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I am confident about this also, or I wouldn't be joking about it. I am impressed with the amount of effort and thought that's going into this project, and very grateful for everything (including your sense of humor, Rabin...or is it "humour?" ). Will be interested to see the final specs (fasteners, etc.)... Am I correct in thinking that this is like trailering a car -- you get it set up, run for a little bit & re-tighten, then check it periodically? I don't see this as a set-it-and-forget-it thing, more like something that needs to be checked out every now and then, like tire pressure... Andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 andrethx - neat info on the konig - i couldnt put BBS caps on it in good conscience tho haha. i saw a rolls the other day, with its "floating" center caps, and thought some similar dancing lion caps would be cool on my car....that stayed upright while the wheel spun.... so as for backspacing, lets review what bean said earlier (mind, these numbers are approx. - some are rounded to the closest inch cuz they really a mm measurement, etc). also im writing this out to help myself get a grip on it as well hehe pug 15 wheel has about 4.5" backspacing the adapter adds an inch so then we want wheels with 5.5" backspacing so... 17x8's with 36mm offset could work, no? or did i botch up my math somewhere. could look good if the wheels come out to be closer/flush with the wheel opening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 See, Omar, this is the problem with a lot of these wheel specs -- they don't make sense to me. I follow your analysis exactly -- if the offset is measured from the centerline of the wheel, and the backspacing is the distance from the back of the centers to the back of the wheel, then you get: offset + .5(wheel width) = backspacing so in your example, on an 8" wheel, half of the width (distance from edge of rim to centerline) is 4", and since the offset is 35 mm, or bit smaller than 1.5", then an 8 inch wide wheel will get you the desired 5.5" backspacing (since 4" + 1.5" = 5.5"). However, Rabin has said earlier that anything wider than 7" wheels could potentially cause problems (depending on your tires, conditions of the road, how you drive, etc.). Since we only have the offset dimensions given for the Remembers (I've looked, nobody has offset listed explicitly, not even Konig), it looks like there isn't a clear "safe" size choice available for these wheels. This is why I have not been looking at the Remembers -- even though they were my first choice based on price/appearance. Without knowing the exact backspacing, one could end up with a cool-looking wheel that rubs the fenders or the suspension. I had been looking at this 17x7 wheel, because the specs list the offset at 5.43". However, the offset listed for this wheel is 38 mm (also about 1.5"), so based on my equation above, why isn't the offset backspacing (edit) a suspension-rubbing 5" instead of the desired 5.5"? Obviously, there is something about offset/backspacing that I'm not understanding, and I'd appreciate it if someone would explain it to me... Andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 hmmm. if the backspacing is more than 5.5" then it will hit the strut and if its less than 5.5 it will (or could) rub the fender. rubbing the fender is the easier problem to solve, with rolling the fender, or going a bit wilder and cutting it into a wider radius or adding flares.... See, Omar, this is the problem with a lot of these wheel specs -- they don't make sense to me. I follow your analysis exactly -- if the offset is measured from the centerline of the wheel, and the backspacing is the distance from the back of the centers to the back of the wheel, then you get: offset + .5(wheel width) = backspacing so in your example, on an 8" wheel, half of the width (distance from edge of rim to centerline) is 4", and since the offset is 35 mm, or bit smaller than 1.5", then an 8 inch wide wheel will get you the desired 5.5" backspacing (since 4" + 1.5" = 5.5"). However, Rabin has said earlier that anything wider than 7" wheels could potentially cause problems (depending on your tires, conditions of the road, how you drive, etc.). Since we only have the offset dimensions given for the Remembers (I've looked, nobody has offset listed explicitly, not even Konig), it looks like there isn't a clear "safe" size choice available for these wheels. This is why I have not been looking at the Remembers -- even though they were my first choice based on price/appearance. Without knowing the exact backspacing, one could end up with a cool-looking wheel that rubs the fenders or the suspension. I had been looking at this 17x7 wheel, because the specs list the offset at 5.43". However, the offset listed for this wheel is 38 mm (also about 1.5"), so based on my equation above, why isn't the offset a suspension-rubbing 5" instead of the desired 5.5"? Obviously, there is something about offset/backspacing that I'm not understanding, and I'd appreciate it if someone would explain it to me... Andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 To clarify - going wider than 7" only has consequences that pertain to messing up the stock suspension geometry. The suspension is designed around using a 6" wheel, with a defined contact tire patch. When you turn your wheel, that contact patch will essentially rotate about a center point. That contact patch rotation point is critical to how the car handles and feels when driving. So when we increase rim width, that contact patch is now much wider, and the rotation point stays the same. There's now all this contact patch outside that point, so now we've comprimised the handling somewhat by increasing the scrub radius. 7" wheels shouldn't be bad as it's just 1" wider, but it allows us to use some nice 225 rubber with no issues - so the pros outway the cons. The wider you go however, the worse this scrub radius will be, and the worse the car will handle. You could also run a staggered set of wheels if you wanted as the back doesn't really have that much of an impact, but for most people - 7" wheels all around, with 225-45-17" modern rubber will be a HUGE performance upgrade. It'll also look cool as hell - so it's win win. I'm knowinging going into this running wider rims, but I'm willing to sacrifice the twitchy handling traits on the track, but I went with 7.5" wheels for the street. I've also got the two piece strut so I can play with the strut angle to alter the contact patch rotation point some what. As for clarification on wheel dims - I noticed Andre that you still mixed up the terms offset and backspacing a bit. One other thing to remember is that since the 17" wheel is 1" higher up on the strut, we can actually run a little more backspacing to get the wheel a little closer since the strut tube angles in slightly. I'll measure exact back spacing today, and see what kind of space we have to work with between the rim and the strut. Sadly it's currently -32C now, but a warm front is supposed to move in right away and "warm" things up to about -17C... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushgo Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 To clarify - going wider than 7" only has consequences that pertain to messing up the stock suspension geometry. The suspension is designed around using a 6" wheel, with a defined contact tire patch. When you turn your wheel, that contact patch will essentially rotate about a center point. That contact patch rotation point is critical to how the car handles and feels when driving. So when we increase rim width, that contact patch is now much wider, and the rotation point stays the same. There's now all this contact patch outside that point, so now we've comprimised the handling somewhat by increasing the scrub radius. 7" wheels shouldn't be bad as it's just 1" wider, but it allows us to use some nice 225 rubber with no issues - so the pros outway the cons. The wider you go however, the worse this scrub radius will be, and the worse the car will handle. You could also run a staggered set of wheels if you wanted as the back doesn't really have that much of an impact, but for most people - 7" wheels all around, with 225-45-17" modern rubber will be a HUGE performance upgrade. It'll also look cool as hell - so it's win win. I'm knowinging going into this running wider rims, but I'm willing to sacrifice the twitchy handling traits on the track, but I went with 7.5" wheels for the street. I've also got the two piece strut so I can play with the strut angle to alter the contact patch rotation point some what. As for clarification on wheel dims - I noticed Andre that you still mixed up the terms offset and backspacing a bit. One other thing to remember is that since the 17" wheel is 1" higher up on the strut, we can actually run a little more backspacing to get the wheel a little closer since the strut tube angles in slightly. I'll measure exact back spacing today, and see what kind of space we have to work with between the rim and the strut. Sadly it's currently -32C now, but a warm front is supposed to move in right away and "warm" things up to about -17C... Rabin Bean, do you think that a 50 series tire can be run on the 17 tire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Maybe if you were running a real narrow tire like 195 - but you'd have to compare rotations per mile to see how close to stock it would be. 50 series in a wider size would make the tire quite big. I personally like 225-45-17's. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushgo Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Maybe if you were running a real narrow tire like 195 - but you'd have to compare rotations per mile to see how close to stock it would be. 50 series in a wider size would make the tire quite big. I personally like 225-45-17's. Rabin will the 225-45-17 fill in the wheel gap more than what I am currently running: 205-55-15? Just currious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 thanks for the explanation - i think im getting it To clarify - going wider than 7" only has consequences that pertain to messing up the stock suspension geometry. The suspension is designed around using a 6" wheel, with a defined contact tire patch. When you turn your wheel, that contact patch will essentially rotate about a center point. That contact patch rotation point is critical to how the car handles and feels when driving. So when we increase rim width, that contact patch is now much wider, and the rotation point stays the same. There's now all this contact patch outside that point, so now we've comprimised the handling somewhat by increasing the scrub radius. 7" wheels shouldn't be bad as it's just 1" wider, but it allows us to use some nice 225 rubber with no issues - so the pros outway the cons. The wider you go however, the worse this scrub radius will be, and the worse the car will handle. You could also run a staggered set of wheels if you wanted as the back doesn't really have that much of an impact, but for most people - 7" wheels all around, with 225-45-17" modern rubber will be a HUGE performance upgrade. It'll also look cool as hell - so it's win win. I'm knowinging going into this running wider rims, but I'm willing to sacrifice the twitchy handling traits on the track, but I went with 7.5" wheels for the street. I've also got the two piece strut so I can play with the strut angle to alter the contact patch rotation point some what. As for clarification on wheel dims - I noticed Andre that you still mixed up the terms offset and backspacing a bit. One other thing to remember is that since the 17" wheel is 1" higher up on the strut, we can actually run a little more backspacing to get the wheel a little closer since the strut tube angles in slightly. I'll measure exact back spacing today, and see what kind of space we have to work with between the rim and the strut. Sadly it's currently -32C now, but a warm front is supposed to move in right away and "warm" things up to about -17C... Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 As for clarification on wheel dims - I noticed Andre that you still mixed up the terms offset and backspacing a bit. One other thing to remember is that since the 17" wheel is 1" higher up on the strut, we can actually run a little more backspacing to get the wheel a little closer since the strut tube angles in slightly. Rabin, you're absolutely right. I edited my earlier post for clarity. I guess it just shows how confused I've been about these issues. In any event, in an effort to educate myself, I went to the wheelwhores forum and found a great thread on this exact subject. My favorite part of this thread is the following width/offset chart: Using this chart, I can see that the calculation I was using to determine backspacing was wrong. I still don't know how to calculate it, but who cares?!? now I have this chart. It confirms the dimensions of the wheel on tirerack.com I was puzzling over earlier, and it also indicates that on a 7" wide wheel, we'd need a 38mm offset to give us 5.5" backspacing. Pretty cool. The thread also contains links to a wheel offset calculator and well as to a wheel/tire size "comparer." Very useful stuff, thank god for the whores! (I know, right? ). I think most people here have also seen the miata tire size calculator, which will (I believe) answer questions about tire size & speedometer error... Andre PS -- Rabin, it's 75 degrees (about 24 C) and sunny here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Just to update the group - we ran into a couple SNAFU's... - T6061 Material cost to do them came back WAY high at $310 just for 1.5" slices of 7" round stock. - M12x1.25 hardware at significant grade isn't availabe at a reasonable cost, so we'll have to go with tapered holes on the adapter and lug nuts just like you'd mount a wheel. Pug wheels are lug centric (centered by the lugs), so this should be fine. So with a redesign using lug nuts, I'm hoping we can get away with 1" plate aluminum, with a separate ring / tube press fit into it so the Miata wheel has it's 54.1mm concentric ring to sit on. If we can get the material cost down, hoepfully we can stay close to the estimated price. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrethx Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 So with a redesign using lug nuts, I'm hoping we can get away with 1" plate aluminum, with a separate ring / tube press fit into it so the Miata wheel has it's 54.1mm concentric ring to sit on. Do you think that the original lugs (i.e., the ones on the hub) will have to be shortened in order for the lug nuts to fit properly "inside" the adapter? Andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted February 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 Do you think that the original lugs (i.e., the ones on the hub) will have to be shortened in order for the lug nuts to fit properly "inside" the adapter? Andre If the material cost can be sorted we'll look at how much of the nut needs to be shortened, but the lug nuts will all be new steel M12x1.25 lugs as the stock Pug lugs have a ball taper. Any regular rim uses a 60 degree included angle taper seat, so lugs will be easy to source. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick@nite Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Rabin anything going on with the adapters? Pretty much have found the wheels for #45 with 16" http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/WheelCloseU...&sort=Brand Also alot of VW people use these guys, they also have a useful calculator http://www.adaptecspeedware.com/adapters.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted March 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 I'll contact those guys to see what they can do for us, as I've priced out the adapter with my machinist and between the material cost and the labour - we're looking at $500+ shipping which is way more than initially thought. I'll see if they're willing to do them, and if there's any benefit in pricing to do more than one set. My guy was doing them as cheap as he possibly could regardless of price, but it was still just so pricey. I still need to meet with him this week, but if Adaptec can do it cheaper then this might be the way to go instead. If it's close in price - then getting them done local would be preferred since I can have a lot of input on the final set up. (We're still also trying to figure out a cheaper way to produce them to cut costs.) I'll post up anything once I find out either way. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcal505 Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Nick, those BBS wheels look nice. Are you only looking to buying a new set off Tirerack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick@nite Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Nick, those BBS wheels look nice. Are you only looking to buying a new set off Tirerack? Might aswell for that price of those rims. I get around 10% @ tirerack with everything through the shop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted September 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 OK - Pushgo has been wanting a set of these suckers bad, so I reconnected with the best option to date, and that was Avalanche Performance $500 for a set of 4, with all the hardware, and anodized. They're big into the Volvo scene, but he's willing to do them up for Peugeots as well. He's got to source some 7" stock to make them from, and they now need to be 32mm thick which means the wheel needs to be 7.5" wide. Nissan 240 SX and Honda Prelude's with 4x114.3 OR the Honda 4x100 should all work as long as the wheel is 7.5" wide. Backspacing with the 32mm spacer should be perfect. They need $250 CDN up front for each set before they start, and $250 before they ship them. So please speak up, or PM me if there's any interest. It's pricey I know - but it really is the best quality product, for the best price I could find. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryancohnracing Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Wow, $500 CN is a lot, more than I can cover now....Bummer. Thanks Rabin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted September 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 No worries Bryan! I'm not sure I'll get some myself this round - that $500 would buy another set of nice BMW wheels. BUT - I'll likely get a set once I have that done and operational since I still have 3-4 more Peugeots. Problem was finding someone that had the quality and the pricing, and after trying to do it local for at least $500, this made the most sense. The work they do seems top notch and it has the added benefits of being anodized for protection. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 hey check it out... http://shop.adapterkings.com/4-Lug-to-4-Lug-larger-than-135mm-or-55-4-lug-to-4-lug-7-plate.htm?productId=40 No worries Bryan! I'm not sure I'll get some myself this round - that $500 would buy another set of nice BMW wheels. BUT - I'll likely get a set once I have that done and operational since I still have 3-4 more Peugeots. Problem was finding someone that had the quality and the pricing, and after trying to do it local for at least $500, this made the most sense. The work they do seems top notch and it has the added benefits of being anodized for protection. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bean Posted November 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 I priced it out at $114 each... So $456 for a set of 4 - pretty much on par with what I priced out with Avalanche in Calgary - but their price included anodizing. This would be way easier to do rather than organizing a group buy - This way you can purchase at your leisure. Nothing seemed to come together for the proposed group buy, and I didn't pursue very hard as there was only one or two really interested parties and I wasn't even one of them. Once I get my BMW mod done and functional - THEN maybe I'll look at an adapter set up for my 504. 'Course - once I'm invested in BMW wheels - makes sense to keep with it and upgrade the 504 with the original set up I did. Ohms - Did you happen to hear any reviews on forums or anywhere? They don't look familiar, so not one I checked out when I was looking. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohms Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 yeah i think the logistics of the group buy killed us, which was sad, cuz you did a lot of legwork on that (i was one of the guys going "WOO YEAH ADAPTERS!" too heh. i was just searching for 4x140 wheels/adapters again cuz it had been a while since last i looked into it, on the web. this site was definitely new, because the first hits i came across last time i searched were messages on subie offroad forums - this time around, again i was finding post threads on their forums, but it was them mentioning this site. (and also, scorpio wheels - google "scorpio subaru wheels" - they make a neat looking rim for the subes, but its only 14"). so adapter kings and scorpio seemed new (threads on the subie forums were from the past 4 months). im still doing some due diligence on them, best ive found so far: some pro-touring guys used their stuff, but i dont take too much comfort in that considering those cars (not all, but the ones i saw in the thread!) didnt look like they are driven further than the local cruise in and back home, with maybe one short tire chirp somewhere in between. the subie guys havent tried them yet from what ive read so far (i think for them, its not such a mechanical undertaking to swap the 4x140 hubs for whatever the other more common subie pattern is) good news tho, i found a post on the lemons boards - that could be promising, cuz thats a good bit of abuse being put on the adapters....im about to leave work, will post when i get home again I priced it out at $114 each... So $456 for a set of 4 - pretty much on par with what I priced out with Avalanche in Calgary - but their price included anodizing. This would be way easier to do rather than organizing a group buy - This way you can purchase at your leisure. Nothing seemed to come together for the proposed group buy, and I didn't pursue very hard as there was only one or two really interested parties and I wasn't even one of them. Once I get my BMW mod done and functional - THEN maybe I'll look at an adapter set up for my 504. 'Course - once I'm invested in BMW wheels - makes sense to keep with it and upgrade the 504 with the original set up I did. Ohms - Did you happen to hear any reviews on forums or anywhere? They don't look familiar, so not one I checked out when I was looking. Rabin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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